Don't you get bloody sick of people around you not caring about music,not knowing anything about music. While I have a grin from ear to ear listening to some searing guitar solo,no one could give a damn - just keep talking over the top. I get sick of being the only one who knows ANYTHING about music...

i know a lot of people who love music to death, but don't realize just how bad their taste is. i showed one of these people this website and he said that it must be biased in some way because his (untalented) favorite artist wasn't listed. why can't they just realize that their taste sucks (and that mine is far superior! hahaha!).

All the friggin time. I got nobody to discuss it with but the people on this forum.

I completely empathize, Midaso. I respect that everyone has their own interests and their own tastes, but a genuine music lover with genuinely great taste is insanely hard to come by. This forum, although I don't contribute very often, really is an oasis. I can't count the number of times I've haphazardly asked someone "What's your favorite album from 1971" and been met with a blank stare or the good ol' "point and laugh." Ignorant fools don't know what they're missing out on.

my girlfriend has awesome taste, and i'm undecided as to whether it's a huge part of our relationship, or just icing on the cake. point is, i'm lucky. people with good taste are rare.

Moeboid - I think you're lucky about your girlfriend's taste in music. I wouldn't know, since I never dated any real music fans (why add another requirement on the list?) and now my wife could care less about music.

Anyway, I'm working on my two kids. THEY will have great taste in music if I have anything to do with it (their mom notwithstanding).

Moeboid, let me second Paul's comment - you are definitely lucky to have found someone who "has awesome taste" (by this, I'm sure that you mean someone who not only has tastes that are similar to yours, but one who has a discerning ear and who doesn't listen to your run-o'-the-mill radio crap, right?)

One of my ex-girlfriends had a great taste in music, and as the years pass, I'm beginning to recognize just how special that attribute was. Of course, I appreciated it at the time - it gave us a lot to talk about - but now I look back and I can see that 1) it was a large part of the "glue" that held us together, and 2) it's a rare thing to find. The girlfriends I've had since have all been fans of music, but nothing like what this particular girl was.

Hold on to her, dude.

One ex-girlfriend of mine was extremely religious, and only listened to Christian music, if anything.

When she was looking through my cds, I noticed only two of them caught her eye: Clinic's Walking With Thee, and a cd by The Jesus and Mary Chain :D

I have one good friend who's really into music, mostly classic rock, but accepts indie. And my father is hugely into great pre-1980 music, and I can usually get him to listen to newer stuff.

Other than that, everybody I know either doesn't care about music or is only into some niche of mainstream or 'alternative'. It does get annoying. I count inventories part time, so I have to spend lots of time in CVSes, Walgreens, Shaws, etc. They all have the exact same radio station, which won't play anything that isn't vanilla flavored. Only 20% of the stuff they play is any good, and at least 20% of it is gutwrenchingly bad. I want to complain about it, but nobody else around really goes beyond mainstream!

a while ago my girlfriend was considering posting here... i might bring it up again. she posts on other forums.

her taste is quite different to mine, but that's a good thing because i get to hear new awesome music. here's what i can remember of her top 10 albums:

beach boys - pet sounds
nirvana - bleach
pulp - different class
velvet underground & nico - s/t
bjork - medulla
beck - sea change
lou reed - transformer

I come from a family of classical musicians. My mother was a percussionist in the Houston Symphony, one of my brothers sings in the Atlanta Opera chorus, my other brother is a professor specializing in musicology and medieval/Renaissance (sorry, early modern) music, and my wife is an opera singer.

I'm sure they all think they have better taste than me...

Yeah, I wish I had more folks to talk to, too.

I've just tried to lower my expectations of others, to make up for it. If they can appreciate at least a few great artists, then it's good enough for me.

I think I'm at least lucky to have friends and family that are accepting and open to pretty much everything (probably an unsaid precondition I have for friendship with people). Plus, my sister is a big music nerd like I am and my dad is a big classic rock guy who has opened up his music tastes a lot recently. Since he's old enough to have matured past stupid stigmas in music, he's probably more open to listening to new music than I am.

So who are we to tell what's considered good music or not? I know a lot of people who know everything about music but they like to listen to top 40. Besides everyone has those closeted bands that we're afraid to admit we like. We have to learn to like all sorts of music otherwise we wont be invited to parties because they're not playing enough Magnetic Fields or Arcade Fire. There's nothing worse than "fakers" who only listen to certain kinds of music to live up to some kind of reputation.

"I know a lot of people who know everything about music but they like to listen to top 40"

Really? Where are they hiding? I've never met anyone who enjoys listening to top 40, especially when they already know better.

um, i know lots.

jonmarck, your elitism is profoundly naive.

Some music is better than other music. Otherwise, what's the point of attempting to critically evaluate it. If we all just like what we like and there is no objective merit to the art, then this website is pointless.

Do we really think Brad Paisley = The Beatles = The Hollies = Vanilla Ice? I don't.

So put me down in the elitist camp too.

i think you're confusing "elitist" with "relativist"

Greg,

You're right. (At least as a response to your comment). Popularity and quality are not mutually exclusive.

But what got me going was tim asking "So who are we to tell what's considered good music or not?"

My point should be read as a response to that question.

All I'm gonna add to this about the quality of music is this...

Most music that I've heard on the radio is
1) Sung by a pretty face
2) 3-4 note beats by a synthesizer
3) Repetitive lyrics

And all I can say is I hate it.

"um, i know lots.

jonmarck, your elitism is profoundly naive."

And you dodged the question to make a cheap insult. Tell me about these people who supposedly exist in abundance. If you don't want to then don't say anything at all.

forgive me for thinking the question rhetorical.

"I've never met anyone who enjoys listening to top 40..."

do you not interact with people on a regular basis?

"...especially when they already know better."

then all the people you know are snobs, too.

nobody i know who truly loves music would dismiss top 40 music in toto and on principle.

Oh, I can't STAND Toto...

haha

was it all the a cappella groups singing africa that ruined it for you?

I don't dismiss it in principle. I dismiss it because it's crap. It's the same Five for Fighting and Rob Thomas songs played six times a day.

Good call though Greg. I actually don't interact with other people.

And my friends aren't snobs. They simply don't like rehashed bullshit. Not all of them anyways. The ones that do listen to top 40 generally don't know much about music or art in general. They're in medecine or law or real estate or something decidedly non-creative. They're still alright people (I guess) but they're definitely missing out. That's ok. I'm probably missing out on whatever law/medecine/real estate fun they're having.

Hell, the only reason why top 40 is still doing well (while the rest of radio is falling apart) is because it's the only format that's safe enough to be allowed into the workplace. Unless the business has its own playlist they play top 40 radio because no one would complain about it, and the only people who would complain can safely be considered snobs. That's the double standard. We're forced to put up with their mouthwash but if we ever put on our own stuff it quickly gets denounced. I remember throwing on the self-titled Velvet Underground album (the 3rd one) and Ziggy Stardust when filling in for the receptionist at my dad's office. The stares would've made Iggy Pop uncomfortable. I also remember when a group of snobby socialist wives asked me to turn off Jeff Buckley's Grace while they visited our campus bar. Fuck 'em. I turned it up, then started singing along. They can listen to Josh Groban and Gwen Stefani on the way home in their SUV's. I also remember last year when a classmate spent a couple hours telling me to not call her favourite group (the Backstreet Boys) bad (because I, and no one else, had no right to call what she loved bad music) only to declare hardcore punk and metal non-music (because they growled rather than sang). These are the people that our friend Greg finds so much more fair and balanced than us, the music fans, who devote a large portion of our lives to tracking down all sorts of great songs and albums simply because we love them, an attitude diametrically opposed to that of narrow-minded top 40 radio and its unfortunate listeners.

Although I partially agree with you jonmarck, top 40 material is not necessarily garbage. A year ago Gnarls Barkley's Crazy was at the top of the 40 for quite a while, for example.

I agree with Stephan

To come back to the subject of this thread : Ok, we're music geeks, and thanks to the Internet we can communicate with other aliens like us.
But I don't complain, because I'm very often a source of recommendation in my circle of friends.
There are good sides to being a musical scholar, and the main one is that you can give away some of that knowledge.

we can't prove that the music that we collectively appreciate here on this forum is "better" than "other" music. so it is certainly best not to try. what we can prove is that out tastes are critically acclaimed. unfortunately, whether that's proof that we listen to "good" music, is also subjective. but seriously, who cares? we all know that we have good taste. sure, you can say "good" is subjective, but if you honestly ask yourself, the answer you'll get back is, "if good was objective, then my taste in music would be good". point is, we all KNOW that our taste is good. there's no need to prove it. and there's also no need to listen to anyone who tries to prove otherwise. it's a pointless argument. we all know it, but it's impossible to prove.

about top 40 stuff. a lot of acclaimed music finds its way up there, but if you're searching for "good" music, then the charts generally aren't the place to start.

sorry for the double post. i should really read everyone's comments before attempting to reply... sorry

jonmarck, your acclaimed taste does not give you the right to be an asshole. what right do you have to shove people's crap tastes in their faces like that? and at work, fuck man, you're supposed to be working, not listening to music, and certainly not attempting to school your colleagues. no matter what's playing, you shouldn't be concentrating on it. and what does being in a creative industry have to do with good taste? i've been in and around creative industries and the only thing i've noticed is that they're all wanker magnets (at my age anyway).

nicolas, you're lucky! i wish people asked me for recommendations. i'd love to be able to help someone like that. maybe when i'm a little older. i'm relatively young so it would be a bit weird for say my boss to ask for recommendations.

i made a lot of recommendations to my friends, but most of them were musicians or music lovers. For instance, I remember converting my whole circle of friends to the Divine Comedy records in th'90s.
I brought about 10 people to their concert in Le Bataclan.

@jonmark: "They're in medecine or law or real estate or something decidedly non-creative."

I am a lawyer. My job is to write briefs that will persuade a judge to rule in favor of my client's position. I am creating written product every day. Often times this requires "creativity" as well as logic and presentation skills. I consider myself to be a creative person. I am also a musician.

Despite what I wrote about my family above, we’re planning a party, and I heard my wife say to somebody on the phone, “Martin’s in charge of the music; he’s got really good taste.” This from someone whose tastes in pop music are straight-up top 40 (but who knows classical music far better than I ever will).

I mostly agree with Moeboid’s last post…it’s certainly true that we can’t “prove” (whatever that means) that the Flaming Lips are better than Matchbox 20. Art doesn’t work that way. However, I propose, as a PROVISIONAL definition of good music: music that people appreciate more the more they learn about it. Most people don’t care to actively learn about music, but that’s OK…we’ve got connoisseurs for that. Like us.

Is there any point to being the lonely defenders of good taste that we are? Well, Stephan’s reason is probably the best—that our opinions about music will be consulted. I’d expand on that and point out that, for that reason, we’re in the vanguard. The good stuff that we like will endure and influence, while the mediocre or bad stuff will be forgotten, and quickly. XM Radio has started playing Casey Kasem’s old countdowns; I’ve heard a few, and there has always been just as much forgettable, by-the-numbers junk as there is today. But who now remembers Freddie and the Dreamers, or John Sebastian, or Mr. Mister, or Vertical Horizon?

I worry that some of us are making the leap from “I don’t like the pap on the radio” to “I don’t like it, therefore people who do like it are cretins,” or even “I don’t like it, therefore it shouldn’t exist.” I don’t mind if we congratulate ourselves on our discerning taste, but I draw the line at assuming that doctors and lawyers and realtors are nose-picking philistines (we have at least one lawyer here, I believe). If you want to convince people of the merits of acclaimed music, insulting them isn’t too smart. “Snobby socialist wives” are people too.

(I assume…I mean, I’ve never met any. Most of the snobby people I've met are Republicans, but then I live in Texas, not Toronto.)

Some quick clarifications before work:

- I don't mean EVERYONE in a non-arts job is a philistine. I mean the philistines are in non-arts jobs. Those who work in creative fields (meaning the type of creative fields that are culturally relevant. Not people who "create" briefs, though I'm sure creativity is involved in that), at least the ones I've met, have developed their taste to the point where top 40 radio no longer holds any appeal.

- It's not just the songs that I hate about top 40 radio. It's the format. Heck, the whole idea behind it is that you don't listen for more than a half hour a day. That's why they repeat everything so much! It's for people who are driving to work, or for reception areas, etc.

- I hate the songs too. Sure, 20% is decent, but 60% isn't worth knowing about and 20% is offensively bad.

- It's easily the format most entwined with the sleazy side of the industry. If you want to find payola or playlists with heavy major label influence, go to a top 40 station.

- We can't immediately say that our taste is better but we can say that our taste is more developed, we've invested more into it and we are less ignorant about music than the general public. If we consider those to be admirable and valuable qualities than we certainly do have better taste than those who do not exhibit those qualities. This does not make us music gods, we do not have omniscient power to determine whether a song is good or bad (though we certainly have the right to voice our opinion about it), but if there ever were music appreciation experts, they would be us.

- My anecdotes were provided to show who the true elitists are. There was a time when you couldn't get a job if you liked certain forms of alternative music. Hell, tell someone you like Marilyn Manson (don't worry, I don't) and half the time they'll react like you were involved in the Columbine massacre. Who's REALLY forceful in their music opinions? Us, because we talk about music a lot or the ignorant dumbasses who judge a person's character based on how divergent their tastes are?

- Moeboid, anyone who walks into a campus bar and complains about the alternative music has about as much right to be there as a priest in a synagogue. What are they going to do next? Phone campus radio stations and request Hannah Montana?

Ummm, I listened to Vertical Horizon the other day. The whole album. (And I kinda liked it).

Does that make me a bad person?

“I don't mean EVERYONE in a non-arts job is a philistine. I mean the philistines are in non-arts jobs.”

Clearly, you’ve never been to Hollywood.

No, seriously, I didn’t mean to throw “philistines” out there as a category of people we should try to identify and avoid or re-educate or defenestrate. I meant it sarcastically; Idon’t think throwing around terms like “philistine” gets us anywhere, and it makes music nerds seem like a mandarin caste. No thanks.

***

“We can't immediately say that our taste is better but we can say that our taste is more developed, we've invested more into it and we are less ignorant about music than the general public.”

Yes.

***

“Who's REALLY forceful in their music opinions? Us, because we talk about music a lot or the ignorant dumbasses who judge a person's character based on how divergent their tastes are?”

jonmarck, you yourself used “Gwen Stefani” and “Josh Groban” as shorthand markers for the kind of people you were dealing with, and how their tastes diverged from yours. Now, I’ve done that myself, but it’s not quite cricket to claim persecution because of your non-mainstream tastes and then try to torment people who don’t share those tastes (even if you DO have better taste than them).

***

“anyone who walks into a campus bar and complains about the alternative music has about as much right to be there as a priest in a synagogue”

Umm, I’m going to assume you were being tongue-in-cheek there, because if not, that’s a really offensive statement. For two reasons:

1. A priest has every right to be in a synagogue, just as an imam has every right to be in a church and a rabbi has every right to be in a mosque, and round and round. Experiencing unfamiliar traditions, whether religious or musical, is perfectly legitimate—I’d even call it a moral imperative. To claim otherwise puts one in the same boat, morally, as people who don’t like having their holy land defiled by infidels. That’s dangerous territory, dude.

2. The analogy strongly implies that a campus bar is sacred space, the music played there is part of a holy ritual, and that, again, outsiders of a different persuasion are not welcome. That is bullshit of the first water. Music is not a religion, nor a religion-substitute. It’s something we use to transform ourselves, to make our lives fuller and better, but it’s not something we ought to be using to define dogma and orthodoxy and infidels. I find that kind of pseudo-religious rhetoric about art (which is more common than it ought to be) repulsive, not to mention illegitimate. If you’re offended by the very IDEA that someone might request Hannah Montana from a campus radio station, well, you’re much more easily offended than the average bear.

Again, I’m assuming you didn’t mean that in earnest, but that statement runs so counter to my bedrock values that I couldn’t let it pass without comment.

I had a theory once that you can enjoy anything if you try really, really hard. If you can dumb yourself down for the songs that are dumb, for example, and just generally find the "right" attitude for everything.

And it worked for me.

So, on one side, I'm much less critical than I was before. But on the other, I can enjoy some of the crap that I couldn't stand before, so I'm happier in a way. (But just some of it; still, a big "improvement.")

Do you think doing something like that is worthwhile in any way?

"jonmarck, you yourself used “Gwen Stefani” and “Josh Groban” as shorthand markers for the kind of people you were dealing with, and how their tastes diverged from yours. Now, I’ve done that myself, but it’s not quite cricket to claim persecution because of your non-mainstream tastes and then try to torment people who don’t share those tastes (even if you DO have better taste than them)."

I will mentally mark that person as someone who doesn't care too much about the music they listen to. I won't go so far as to withhold employment or brandish them as a terrorist, a claim regularly leveled at certain alternative music fans. Remember what society considered Eminem fans pre-8 Mile? My stepmom would never leave me alone with my half-sister again if she heard some of my favourite albums (ok, I'm exaggerating, but not by much).

"Umm, I’m going to assume you were being tongue-in-cheek there, because if not, that’s a really offensive statement."

It was meant tongue-in-cheek, but even then it shouldn't be an offensive statement. I didn't say a priest has no right to be in a synagogue, I said they had as much right as them women had to be in our bar. Both have nothing in common with the location. They're more likely to be there to ask directions than anything else. I'm not saying priests shouldn't be in communication with rabbis any more than I'm saying snobby, middle-aged socialites should not be in contact with alt-rockers. Yeah yeah, tolerance and broad-world views are important, but what it comes down to is all we have in common was how different we are. What I'm saying is that if they want to come on our territory it's going to be on our terms. Here's a more accurate analogy: Them telling me to turn off Jeff Buckley is like a priest going to a synagogue and asking everyone to put on some nicer hats.

Besides, the last place to go to learn about a religion is their place of worship. That's where they go to get away from the secular world. It's their retreat. If you want to learn about a religion go to the library, or, better yet, make friends with someone from that religion.

Also, I'm not offended at the idea that someone might request Hannah Montana from a campus radio station. I'm simply saying they're going to the wrong place for what they're looking for. It's like asking for a hamburger at a Chinese restaurant. If you want a hamburger go to a burger joint. When you're at a Chinese restaurant get Chinese food.

“I won't go so far as to withhold employment or brandish them as a terrorist, a claim regularly leveled at certain alternative music fans.”

Damn…Toronto must be much more of a police state than I thought. Not to brag, but I’m usually lionized for my taste in music by people who don’t care about it as much as I do (I listen to Sufjan Stevens so you don’t have to!).

***

“Here's a more accurate analogy: Them telling me to turn off Jeff Buckley is like a priest going to a synagogue and asking everyone to put on some nicer hats.”

Their behavior WAS offensive. But who gives a rat’s ass? One encounters nincompoops every day. Is your defensiveness about Jeff Buckley really comparable to an Orthodox Jew’s feelings about his yarmulke? You’re making my point for me about the assumed “sanctity” of good music.

"Damn…Toronto must be much more of a police state than I thought. Not to brag, but I’m usually lionized for my taste in music by people who don’t care about it as much as I do (I listen to Sufjan Stevens so you don’t have to!)."

Well, yeah, that's Sufjan Stevens, and most people will have that attitude, but there are many who take the opposite point of view. Let me put it this way. If you're a pop-culture-averse small-town retail business owner and you had two candidates for employment, one who listened to apple pie top 40 and one who listened to Judas Priest, The Misfits and Eminem who would you be more likely to hire? Remember all the people who went after Manson for Columbine?

This hits me a little closer to home because I grew up with Christian music, a cultural bubble where music's ALL about image. Most churches have arguments over whether they can even have a drummer in their services! Alternative music is certainly not welcome in many of those settings. I remember one time I almost got kicked out of youth group cause we jammed out Hash Pipe (didn't even sing along) after the service was over. I've since moved on to less...retarded...churches but let me assure you, prejudice against alternative music certainly exists.

"Their behavior WAS offensive. But who gives a rat’s ass? One encounters nincompoops every day. Is your defensiveness about Jeff Buckley really comparable to an Orthodox Jew’s feelings about his yarmulke? You’re making my point for me about the assumed “sanctity” of good music."

Ok fine, it was a quick analogy. I don't think you should read too much into it. I didn't really care about those women too much, either, and it actually didn't go the way I described, it was less direct and immediate than that. I just said it to show that both sides are guilty of elitism, and in my opinion we're more open-minded (and informed) in our views.