The four artists going home for the holidays:

85. Fleetwood Mac (21)
84. Elliott Smith (20)
83. Creedence Clearwater Revival (12)
82. Little Richard (11)

Actually, four artists had 11 points, but Little Richard gets the axe because he appeared on four ballots whereas the others were only on three ballots each.

The runners-up: Buddy Holly (11), John Lennon (11), Paul Simon (11), The Doors (10), T. Rex (10).

81 artists remain:

The Beach Boys, The Beatles, Beck, Chuck Berry, Björk, Blondie, Blur, David Bowie, James Brown, The Byrds, Johnny Cash, Nick Cave, Ray Charles, The Clash, Leonard Cohen, John Coltrane, Elvis Costello, The Cure, Miles Davis, The Doors, Nick Drake, Bob Dylan, Brian Eno, The Flaming Lips, Aretha Franklin, Marvin Gaye, Al Green, PJ Harvey, Jimi Hendrix, Buddy Holly & the Crickets, Michael Jackson, Elton John, Joy Division, The Kinks, Led Zeppelin, John Lennon, Bob Marley and the Wailers, Massive Attack, Curtis Mayfield, Joni Mitchell, Van Morrison, New Order, Nirvana, OutKast, Parliament/Funkadelic, Pavement, Pink Floyd, Pixies, The Police, Elvis Presley, Prince, Public Enemy, Pulp, Radiohead, Ramones, Otis Redding, Lou Reed, R.E.M., The Rolling Stones, Roxy Music, Sex Pistols, Paul Simon, Simon and Garfunkel, Frank Sinatra, Sly and the Family Stone, The Smiths, Sonic Youth, Bruce Springsteen, Steely Dan, The Stooges, Talking Heads, T. Rex, U2, The Velvet Underground, Tom Waits, The White Stripes, The Who, Wilco, Hank Williams, Stevie Wonder, Neil Young.

Now we begin Week 6, the Very Special Christmas episode of Survivor.

Joyeux Noel, y'all.

Now you guys are actually getting rid of groups I care about. Really? CCR? More than Leonard Cohen and Pulp? At least they had more than one hit.

1. Buddy Holly & the Crickets
2. Roxy Music
3. Pulp
4. Brian Eno
5.Leonard Cohen

1. RAMONES
2. T. REX
3. FRANK SINATRA
4. THE DOORS
5. *new entry* - ELTON JOHN: Just one of those artists that, over the past few years, I’ve come to enjoy less and less. Full marks for musicianship and songwriting ability; I can appreciate the ambition of an album like Goodbye Yellow Brick Road, but I can’t get behind any of his other albums – only a handful of singles appeal to me. Deductions: a catalogue largely lacking any real substance, the Liberace-esque persona of the ‘70s, the lite-FM ‘80s, the Disney affiliation of the ‘90s. I’m not sure what he’s doing now, but I don’t really care.

Merry Christmas guys.

I'm gone for a week and you guys still can't get rid of T. Rex, but CCR somehow is voted out?

1) T. Rex - Too mediocre to be in the top 100. Go Bang a Gong somewhere else. Still on the island? How?
2) Kraftwerk - Beep Beep Boop Whirrr Buzzz Bleep Bloop Beep Bop Whirr Buzz Buzz Beep Boop. I have a heart and a soul not a hard drive and processors, so this doesn't appeal to me. I'm sure 3CPO and R2D2 love the shit out of these guys, though.
3) The Cure - A few good songs, but would you like some cheese with that whine? And dude, you're like 40-something now, enough with the ridiculous makeup and hair.
4) Nick Cave - Because of a recommendation from someone I checked him out more. Was going to give him a pass this week and vote off Depeche Mode. Well, they're gone now, so he's back on the list.
5) Nick Drake - I know some people swoon all over this guy, but those are usually the type of people I like to avoid.

I don't agree with any of 82-85, so here are my five picks again.

1. Ramones
2. Buddy Holly/The Crickets
3. John Coltrane
4. Wilco
5. The Byrds

1. The White Stripes
2. John Coltrane
3. T. Rex
4. Bjork
5. Blondie

Thanks for pointing out that the White Stripes were in the top 100 Greg! I totally missed them and frankly am astounded they are in the top 100.

1. Tom Waits
2. Blur
3. White Stripes- Modern bands get a bad rap but this is not the one that should be acclaimed. I can't stand that bands that continue to receive the acclaim are ones that recycle a bunch of old ideas. The White Stripes bring nothing new to the table.
4. Steely Dan
5. Nick Cave

No changes.

1) Beck
2) Nirvana
3) Public Enemy
4) John Lennon
5) Parliament/Funkadelic

Three of the artists who were on my list last week are gone...and the other is Little Richard. His departure this early makes absolutely no sense to me, but with 20 artists gone now, I suspect everybody's lost a favorite.

Held over:
1. THE DOORS
2. PAUL SIMON
(I flipped 'em this week; after further review, I find the Doors more actively objectionable.)

New:
3. STEELY DAN. I've been dreading having to do this, because the "discussions" we've had about the Dan on this forum have too often been angry, irrational and unedifying...I'm kind of hoping we can smuggle them off the island in a submarine in the dead of night, so nobody notices. So: I give them full marks for intelligence and craftsmanship, but they're a niche band in a niche I don't care for much. And I like Fagen's Nightfly better than any of the stuff he did as part of SD.
4. JOHN LENNON. Sad but true: John Lennon, who was one of the great visionaries of rock and roll and the Beatles' most talented songwriter (by far), also had the most unsatisfying post-1969 career of any of the four (giving Ringo credit for Caveman and Barbara Bach). I can't get through any of his albums, and "Instant Karma" is his only great solo song. This ranking does NOT reflect the fact that he was also, as far as I can tell, an absolute louse of a human being.
5. MASSIVE ATTACK. I've boned up on MA, and I concur with Harold W.: good music, but out of their league here, by a long shot.

1. (5p) James Brown - I listen to my music, I don't watch it, so his stage antics don't mean anything to me. He could have been chewing metal for all I care, he still sounds like a man suffering dental pain.

2. (4p) Marvin Gaye - The Akon of his generation. And like Akon he is slick, smooth and able to make me get out of my chair to turn it off.

3. (3p) Brian Eno - I decided to push some new artists up my list now that Little Richard and CCR was voted off (partly thanks to me). Brian Eno doesn't mean anything to me. Honestly, I think he's still on the list because nobody really cares about him.

4. (2p) Joni Mitchell - She sounds like she has something stuck down her throat, and she is singing around it.

5. (1p) Chuck Berry - I don't care who influenced who. Why the hell should I like Chuck Berry (or Little Richard or anyone) just because of his impact on music? Of course I know he is important historically. Of course I know he was one of the artists who created rock and roll. But I don't want to listen to it.

Whoa there. You just compared Marvin Gaye to Akon. You could have at least gone with Usher or even Justin Timberlake. You know...guys who aren't just flash in the pan singers? Marvin Gaye has nothing in common with Akon.

yeah, you found that weird, too?

Rocky Raccoon, you have Kraftwerk on, even though they've already been voted off. Yes, I do realize this moves up Nick Cave on your list (who I adore), but in an effort at honesty I figured you might want to fix that.

Thanks Slush, I guess I missed that while I was gone. Here's the new top five, and just because you clued me in, Nick Cave doesn't move up.

1) T. Rex - Too mediocre to be in the top 100. Go Bang a Gong somewhere else. Still on the island? How?
2) The Cure - A few good songs, but would you like some cheese with that whine? And dude, you're like 40-something now, enough with the ridiculous makeup and hair.
3) Nick Drake - I know some people swoon all over this guy, but those are usually the type of people I like to avoid.
4) Nick Cave - Because of a recommendation from someone I checked him out more. He's staying on the list, but not moving up. P.S. I don't have anything against people named Nick, honestly.
5) Ray Charles - He kind of bores me to be honest.

Rocky Raccoon wrote: "And dude, you're like 40-something now, enough with the ridiculous makeup and hair."

Someone should have told Alice Cooper.

Schleuse, what niche are you saying Steely Dan stays in? If someone unfamiliar with Steely Dan heard one of their compilations, what would they think their niche is? I agree with you if you meant today's Steely Dan, but I feel that one of the reasons a lot don't understand or care for them is because they can't really figure out what their niche is.

I'd say jazz-rock. In fact I would consider them to be one of the most easily categorized artists.

First week without one of my votes helping someone onto the departing boat. Little Richard was to be my next to get voted out, but apparently there are a number of you who think even less of him than I do.

So a stable bottom five this week:

1. The Cure
2. The Doors
3. Roxy Music
4. Joni Mitchell
5. Joy Division

Only my #4 left last time, but there are some changes.

1. Paul Simon
2. The Byrds
3. Joni Mitchell
4. T. Rex
5. Hank Williams

Collecting Best of 2007 songs from various artists, I came across Grinderman’s No Pussy Blues, and that alone makes Nick Cave disappear from my list. Any Cave albums or songs you would suggest that might capture some of the personality and sound of that song. I know Grinderman might be a little different that most of Cave’s stuff.

T. Rex, despite the fun of Bang a Gong and having a certain indie credibility (Pitchfork put two of his albums on their to 100 of 70s list) doesn’t sound like he would be very interesting to get into. Some of the comments from this discussion have led me to believe that, and perhaps his appearance in the top 100 is due to weirdos like pitchfork voting his albums in.

Hank Williams is the pioneer of country music, one of my least favorite genres. This stage in the game every artist has to represent a unique stand-alone sound, and the only country artist relevant to my ears is Johnny Cash, who will hopefully stay in for a while. Legendary as he is, Hank will have to go.

Jorgito, jonmarck's response is exactly correct.

Steely Dan really is the kind of act where you either like their genre--70s jazz-rock--or you don't. I don't.

Of course I give the Dan credit for successfully accomplishing what they tried to do. Which is why they haven't been on my ballot until now.

This stage in the game every artist has to represent a unique stand-alone sound

I don't agree with you Jonah

first Hank belongs to a genre, country, in which you can measure originality with the genre's own standards
and then Hank when he came out after WW2 had a stand alone sound. Honky Tonk was very new. It's become such a familiar sound that lots of people forgot there was a time when this sound was brand new;
So I guess the sentence "country is one of my least favorite genre" is more relevent that the following



For me Hank has a stand alone sound, very recognizable
Ask Loophole

Hey, Schwah,

If the Cure is still on the island after this week we need to form an alliance with someone else to vote them off and then vote for one of the artists that person wants off the island. Time to spice this game up.

Rocky Raccoon -

While I like your idea in theory, and agree that some strategic voting might be fun at this stage, in deference to schleuse's wishes as the organizer of this game I won't do any strategic voting. He wanted this to be based purely on the voter's actual opinions, as a means to stimulate discusion on the artists' relative merits.

Maybe when this Survivor is done, I will organize a different Survivor competition based on the plus/minus voting method I described when this game was getting organized. There, you have to be strategic about your votes, and we could encourage alliances. I'll raise the idea when this is winding down, and see if anyone is up for it.

Well Nicolas, the top AM Hank Williams songs are I'm So Lonesome I Could Cry and Your Cheatin' Heart, both slow twangy traditional country ballads, so forgive me if that's how I view his music. I actually thought Jerry Lee Lewis was more of the honky-tonk innovator, but that's less of an opinion and more due to my ignorance of all of Hank Williams music.

Give me Cash's low dark drawl any day.

Jazz-Rock is one genre they are known for, but your answers are still wrong since I asked what niche they stay in. I want to know what you meant by one niche band. Is it song by song, album by album? What kind of music should they have done so you won't think of them in that way? Can you say that "Can't Buy a Thrill" is in the same niche as "Gaucho"? Is "Hey Nineteen" jazz, rock, jazz-rock? Is "Peg" in the same niche as "Aja"? You say you just don't like jazz-rock, so maybe you would like to narrow it down to a smaller niche like just rock, whatever you think that is. They've used the same engineer since 1972, and at times I wonder what it would be like if they had a different approach to engineering.

Well considering their whole approach to engineering was less is more, and none is all, I don't think the engineer is to blame. In fact, save for Katy Lied, I think Steely Dan got exactly the sound they were looking for.

The reason why I consider them to be a niche artist is because I don't hear a lot of diversity within their albums. I know Can't Buy a Thrill, Countdown to Ecstasy, Pretzel Logic and Aja pretty well and, aside from the poppier debut, I consider them to be largely indistinguishable. Sure, we could go track by track and get into the nuts of bolts of every arrangement to show how each one is individually different but what it really comes down to is that every Steely Dan song was written on the same instruments by the same two people with the same goal for the same audience. They're light-years away from the genre-hopping of Bowie, Dylan, Joni Mitchell or Neil Young. In terms of stylistic diversity I would consider them to be more similar to NIN, who so far have only operated with the confines of industrial, and NIN is definitely considered niche.

5 pts. Steely Dan
4 pts. Brian Eno
3 pts. John Lennon - I don't like much of his solo stuff (don't like McCartney's either).
2 pts. Roxy Music - Not my favorite style. Not enough high quality output to deserve such a high ranking.
1 pt. Police

Since Nicolas mentioned my name, I'll say just a quick word about Hank, but I don't want to knock myself out trying to justify his worth to this rock music forum. He was innovative and important because he brought the blues into "country" music and because of his personal and very direct songwriting style. He was a big influence on many later musicians including Elvis Presley, Buddy Holly, Johnny Cash, Jerry Lee Lewis, Merle Haggard, George Jones, Bob Dylan, Gram Parsons, Elvis Costello, and the whole alt-country scene.

Loophole, I didn't want to force your hand !

Let's get rid off this rubbish.

5 points - The Doors
4 Sonic Youth
3 Bruce Springsteen
2 Wilco
1 Paul Simon

Surely the first thing anyone throws off a desert island is a 'message in a bottle'? Well, while you're at it get rid of everything else by:-
1 The Police

+

2 The Doors
3 John Lennon
4 The Clash
5 Elton John:-refuses to write his own lyrics, and then seemingly only employs lyricists inept enough to write pap of a magnitude befitting the dismal musical landscape provided.

Jorgito, I probably should have made clear that I was using "genre" and "niche" as synonyms, more or less--I meant that jazz-rock is their niche and that jazz-rock is their genre.

When I say that it's their genre, I don't mean that there's no variation in their work, only that their work pretty much all falls into that genre. Or niche. And I have absolutely no problem with an artist working entirely in one genre...I love the Ramones (currently in some peril here) even though they're probably the best example in Survivor of a one-trick pony.

If you find all of the above unpersuasive, here's the real bottom line: there are 78 artists still on the island that I think are better than Steely Dan...come to think of it, that's not terribly different from their actual AM ranking (#65). YMMV, of course.

Again, I respect them, and in the right frame of mind I can sometimes enjoy them. In the 70s and 80s, Houston had KLOL, a pretty good AOR station, which played a Steely Dan song every day at noon, and to this day I think of their songs as background music for lunch.

What schleuse says is acceptable, but this is to jonmarck.
No diversity within their own albums/largely indistinguishable: Countdown To Ecstacy is known as their band album, Pretzel Logic is their only album with strings, Katy Lied is known as their piano album, Royal Scam as their guitar album, Aja as their horns album, & Gaucho has a very unique sound with the Wendel machine that Roger Nichols made.
Every Steely Dan song was written with the same goal for the same audience: I live in San Francisco, and I've noticed that "Hey Nineteen" gets airplay on more stations than any other song. I've heard my sisters sing along to that song without knowing who Steely Dan is, while they've also asked "what the hell are you listening to?", when I was listening to Steely Dan.
They're light-years away from the genre-hopping of Bowie, Dylan, Joni Mitchell or Neil Young: I'm not a scientist like you, yet I know that Steely Dan's universe contains what those artists offer except for a lot of harmonica & the make-up was worn by the backup singers.
Similar to NIN, who so far have only operated with the confines of industrial: I'll give you this one because Steely Dan is confined to blending styles, making people like you say, "why can't they stop doing that, and be one thing or the other?"

"Countdown To Ecstacy is known as their band album, Pretzel Logic is their only album with strings, Katy Lied is known as their piano album, Royal Scam as their guitar album, Aja as their horns album, & Gaucho has a very unique sound with the Wendel machine that Roger Nichols made."

Like I said in my post, we can get into the nuts of bolts of the various arrangements and it won't amount to a hill of beans. I could play a random selection of any of those albums to most people with a passing interest in Steely Dan and unless they know the song by heart they almost certainly wouldn't be able to pick which album it's from. There are minor differences but all the albums generally sound the same.

"I live in San Francisco, and I've noticed that "Hey Nineteen" gets airplay on more stations than any other song. I've heard my sisters sing along to that song without knowing who Steely Dan is, while they've also asked "what the hell are you listening to?", when I was listening to Steely Dan."

So? I said they were written for the same audience, not that only people within that key demographic ever liked them. I doubt very much that Steely Dan wrote Hey Nineteen with your sisters in mind. Maybe your parents.

"I'm not a scientist like you, yet I know that Steely Dan's universe contains what those artists offer except for a lot of harmonica & the make-up was worn by the backup singers."

If you want to continue this conversation you better fix your tone. Then try to find me anything that Steely Dan did that is remotely close to either Bowie or Neil Young.

"I'll give you this one because Steely Dan is confined to blending styles, making people like you say, "why can't they stop doing that, and be one thing or the other?""

Now you're putting words in my mouth? Obviously I hate it when artists don't develop their style or I wouldn't be complaining that Steely Dan didn't!

Actually what I really hate about Steely Dan are their fans. They're the most arrogant, snobbish group of self-absorbed music nerds I've ever had the misfortune of conversing with. They think that just because Steely Dan have a sense of jazz chords and offbeat rhythms they should be hailed as music gods. Give me a break.

Only 1 exit for me, so 4 repeats:

5 pts - Frank Sinatra
4 pts - Nick Cave
3 pts - Buddy Holly & The Crickets
2 pts - T. Rex

New entry:

1 pt - John Coltrane - Have to admit, that I only have a 3 of his huge collection of albums, but 'A Love Supreme' and 'Giant Steps' don't do much to me, not enough to be in top 80.

Well, I'm busy with my top 100, and none of the artists I nominated last time are gone, so I will insist

1. New Order - you're firing Little Richard, CCR and you're keeping them ? Come on...
2. Blondie - enough disco please
3. T-Rex - bye bye for good this time
4. The Smiths - they won't be gone next week
5. Joni Mitchell - She'll be gone next week

1. Pavement
2. Michael Jackson
3. Parliament/Funkadelic
4. Hank Williams
5. Chuck Berry

Hank Williams I'm not really familiar with, but I'm no huge country fan, so there's a pretty good chance I'd be ranking him below Chuck Berry even if I did know him better...

Chuck Berry had some good tunes, in a one-note '50s rocker sorta way. But I prefer the competition.

1. New Order
2. Pulp
3. Outkast
4. The Flaming Lips
5. Sex Pistols

Now that my top 2 artists are gone, I will be mercyless !
So, only Fleetwood is out among my past week vote

5 points)The Flaming Lips
4)Bjork
3)Pulp
2) The Smiths
1 point )Pavement
had not noticed they were still here... can't stand Slanted & Enchanted. I heard lot of you saying that CRCR is much different, so I will try to listen to if before my vote becomes important for their survival in the island

Listen to Terror Twilight as well which is just as accessible as Crooked Rain.

I would have suggested Brighten the Corners before Terror Twilight, but both are good.

I don't know where all the Joni hate is coming from but you guys need some Court and Spark.

I agree about Joni. A brilliant songwriter and musician. This forum's tough on the ladies.

I'll second that.

Aside from the fact that "Blue" is fantastic, she's a product of my home province - and for a part of the country that hasn't generated its share of acclaimed artists, I needed to mention it.

The only musical exports that come out of Alberta are second-rate country music pests like George Fox, KD Lang, and Paul Brandt. And let's not forget Nickelback, who pander a different type of bland radio crap, but are equally as embarrassing.

For Neil Young, I would go with something like "Brooklyn" & "The Boston Rag". For David Bowie, "Green Earrings" minus the bridge, & maybe "Third World Man". This seems easier than trying to compare Neil Young with David Bowie. I think I become a bigger Steely Dan fan when I see others talking things about them that don't make sense. Moeboid asked, "why is it always Steely Dan?" I myself don't know if Tristan Fabriani is the same guy as Peter Evans, but it shouldn't seem like such a coincidence that there would be at least a few representing Steely Dan. I just think it's mysterious how a group that is well-rounded & consistent as Steely Dan get heavily overlooked.
Jonmarck, how can you defend Joni Mitchell with "Court & Spark" if it's one of the closest sounding albums to Steely Dan?

I've been away from the forum for a long time, so this is my first look at AM survivor. Looks like I'm supposed to nominate five acts to be removed from a shrinking list. ok, I'll give it a go...

1. Bob Dylan.
2. Van Morrison.
3. Bruce Springsteen.
4. The Smiths.
5. The Doors.

Bob, Van and Bruce are all just horrible. Horrible voices, horrible songs, and horribly prolific.
Bob gets the top spot because he's "oh so influential" which means I blame him for a lot of other rubbish that's been around over the last 40+ years.
The Smiths and The Doors are both bands that I've always disliked and always will. Some of the Doors actual music is good, but that "good"ness is heavily outbalanced by the effing twat of a singer. I wish he hadn't died, then perhaps he'd be about as praised as just about any old drunken fool.

You're sure you want to be back to the forum ? (my favorite singer is Springsteen)

And Bob Dylan mine! Imma go off to find some articles that praise Bob Dylan and then call everyone who says different ignorant idiots!

New Order is getting votes already? That hurts my soul.

5 points: John Lennon - Where are you Moonbeam to vote for Lennon? I actually like the Beatles, but I really can't stand Lennon's solo stuff (except for Instant Karma, that song rules).

Anyway, I listened to All Things Must Pass the other day which confirmed my belief that Lennon's solo stuff was the most banal of any of the Beatles. George released the magnum opus of post-Beatles land and at least Paul was having fun (I don't really know much of Ringo's post-Beatles stuff). John still wanted to tell a generation what to think and how hard it was to be John Lennon. I'm sure he was a nice guy (or at least I hope he was), but I can't believe it listening to his music.

4 points: Joni Mitchel - Respectable songwriter; extremely grating voice

3 points: Chuck Berry - Nicolas ended up replying to my votes last week for Little Richard, Chuck Berry and Ray Charles, but I didn't check the boards for a couple of days so I didn't reply. Anyway, I'll reply now. First, I do actually own "The Great Twenty-Eight" and have listened to it a couple of times. This said, nothing else really sticks out to me on that album. I never revisit it. However, at least my Berry opinion is based on 28 songs instead of 1.

Also, IMO, the music of the 50s will never be as good as what came later. That's because it was a generation built mostly on singles when it came to rock music. I respect a great album more than a great song and there aren't a whole lot of great albums from the 50s that aren't jazz albums which just kinda sucks for artists from that era when it comes to my votes.

As for Ray Charles....I'll give him a stay until I hear all of Modern Sounds or until I have to start voting off artists I really, really personally love with a deep passion (which probably won't be for another 20 or so). Hell, I hadn't heard much Hank Williams til Survivor and if I hadn't he'd already be getting 5 points. However, Hank is protected from my votes for quite awhile because I have discovered a lot of his songs are really, really awesome.

2 point: Leonard Cohen - See Joni Mitchel. This would've been Blondie, but I'll give them a stay til I hear more of them just like Ray Charles.

1 point: The Doors - They're back! I still hate Jim Morrison with a great passion, even though I have to accept that "Break on Through," "Riders on the Storm," and "Soul Kitchen" are pretty sweet. However, if I never had to hear "Light My Fire" ever again or see it any critics list again...ever...I would be quite happy. They'll be kicked off this week without my vote, but I just want add another nail to the coffin as a vote of approval.

"For Neil Young, I would go with something like "Brooklyn" & "The Boston Rag". For David Bowie, "Green Earrings" minus the bridge, & maybe "Third World Man"."

Well, I'll never say Steely fans don't have imagination. These are the Steely Dan songs that sound the most like Bowie and Young but they are hardly in the same style. Just because they use slide guitars doesn't make them country-rock. They are thoroughly jazz rock. They use seven note chords, pitch-perfect gospel singers and unorthodox structures. Besides, it's soooo clean. Young and Bowie would never get/want a sound so polished.

"Jonmarck, how can you defend Joni Mitchell with "Court & Spark" if it's one of the closest sounding albums to Steely Dan?"

Why do you assume I don't like Steely Dan?