We've got a lot of polls coming and I just wanted to make a schedule with deadlines and the guys in charge

2007/08 all-time top 100 albums :12/31/2007 (Anthony)

2007 End of Year list : 01/15/2008 (Rocky Raccoon)
"each member submits a list of their top 10 albums of the year and assigns each a number of points between 5 and 30 such that all the albums total 100 points"

2007/08 all-time top 100 songs : january 2008 (date has to be fixed)(Moonbeam)

artists top 100 : date has to be fixed : before or after Survivor ? Guy in charge unknown

I have another idea : we had a lot of fun with the 1990's poll. It's a very good way to discover new albums, artists and songs. So why don't we pursue with another decade ? My idea was to do the 00's, but as Honorio pointed out, it would be better to wait until 2009. He suggested to do the 80's in 2008, then the 70's in 2009.
Why not ?
Henrik, do you feel like doing it or have you got any other idea ?

What do you guys think of all this ?

sometimes I feel like I'm back in college with all this homework to do

Not sure when Survivor is finished, but we could kinda schedule the poll to end at the same time (for comparison purposes) and if nobody else is terribly eager to do the artists ranking, I'd be willing to handle it.

but we could kinda schedule the poll to end at the same time (for comparison purposes
That's a good idea, Neo !
So we'll have to see with Schleuse when Survivor ends, and maybe take one month for the list submissions.

Concerning the decades poll, I suggest to go on with the 70s during 2008. Good idea, isnt' it ?

If we do the 80s in 2008, you'll probably see me not very few times...

I'm happy to run the artists one as well, as I was the one who brought it up. The songs list is also my responsibility, and I think we had decided (although maybe I wasn't clear enough about it) that I would accept lists up through January 31st.

By the way, Moonbeam, what's the limit for the songslist? I personally have a top 250 by now, and I'm thinking of maybe expanding it to 300. You're the one to compile it, so it's up to you really.

And sure, you can do the artists one as well.

Hi Neo-

I'm happy to accept lists of any length as long as they are over 50.

Hey, at least it's fun homework. Not like Political Theory or something like that.

For the AM P&J poll, I'll start a new thread on Dec. 15 to give everyone a month to submit their lists.

Also, I think Henrik was planning on doing all the decades in his original plan when started the '90s poll. I'm game for any decade.

Just a question about the songs poll Moonbeam - if we have lists of 200,250+ like some of these people do,will they all count,or just the top 100?

They will count!

Wait, how much will they count for? Is your system going to be just like the albums poll? Sorry if I missed this anywhere.

Well in this case,I might extend it...

Are ties allowed on our lists? And if they are (hey, you have a 5-way tie on your artist list, Moonbeam ), how do you want them labeled in the Excel sheet (we're supposed to use Excel, right?)?

I will be using the same formula for points that Anthony is using for the album list. Ties are cool, too, although I think it is best if we can limit the number of tied items. If there is a tie, I will allocate the points by averaging the places of the tied items. So, for example, if you have a tie for the 2nd and 3rd song, each will be entered into the formula as 2.5. To indicate this in your Excel list, write the following:

1. Artist- Song
2. Atrist- Song
2. Artist- Song
4. Artist- Song

That way I will know that the 2nd and 3rd songs are tied.

I hope this makes sense!

Moonbeam,
A (probably) stupid question bout the song list : do the songs have to be singles or can they be album songs we like ?

It's true that I had a plan to continue with the decade polls and it has been great fun during the year, but it's not possible for me to continue with the little baby in the family.

Also, I think most of you agree with me that it's more important that I work on the AM site updates than conducting polls here in the forum.

Of course, I'd be more than happy if someone else wants to continue the work on the decade polls. It wouldn't have to be the same as the 1990s format.

I'd like to take this opportunity to thank my wife for taking care of everything at home last weekend while I was posting the 1990s forum poll results.

We thank her too
Tell us Henrik about your plan : what decade was next ?
The 80's ? The 70's ?
I'd love to take over, but I have a little baby in the house too (and a big 3 year old girl) so I don't know if I'll have the time
Let's talk about it
I suggest that we wait until the other polls are done (or at least the january polls)so we'll have time to discuss which decade will be next

Nicolas, any song is eligible for inclusion in the lists! My number 1 song was not released as a single!

As for the decades poll, I think it makes most sense to go with the 80s next, and work our way back.

In response to a question from nicolas and Neoptolemos at the top: Survivor's ending is a little bit flexible, but should be some time in June or July. I realize that's a long wait, so if everyone wants the artist poll to happen earlier, I won't kick (although I like the idea of timing that poll and Survivor to end around the same time).

I approach compiling an artist list with a mixture of excitement and fear--it was difficult enough to finalize my album list (which will be winging its way toward you this weekend, Anthony), and the song list is eating my lunch.

It seems much easier for me to make my song list than my album list... Should I put an album with half song I adore and the other half made of fillers over an album in which I like all the songs, but less than the top songs of the former album... I already have headaches !
Furthermore I'd like to take time to listen to at least all the albums of the top 20 of your former poll, to play my role in the final sprint ! (I must confess I know much of these artists (smiths, stevie wonder, beatles, kinks... ) by their best-ofs more than by their albums )

Well, what I wanted to say at the beginning is : it's great to be able to make ties because I was wondering if I should put on top one of my favourite hip-hop song or the original song from which comes the sample, so I'll put both of them tied

John has a valid question. The formula that was used for the 90s poll and the one used for the albums is one that assumes lists of 100.

Of course this could be easily changed to say (assuming for example Moonbeam submits the longest list of for example 512 songs): score = 512*(1+20)/(position+20)

Also, will all songs be included or only songs that get 2 or more votes (like I believe was done last time)

And one more thing, I think we can do the 80s poll starting February. This will give us February through November for the years and December for the final poll.

By February we'll be through both albums and songs, with only artists and survivor left. That's both spread out over 3 or 4 more months, so that should leave plenty of time for the 80s poll.

Planning even further ahead, that gives us 2009 for the 70s poll and 2010 for the 60s poll and by 2011 we should all have our minds made up for the 00s poll!

Aaaand I'd be willing to host that 80s poll, not that much work involved I suppose and I got plenty of free time anyway.

I'd like to do the 70's poll instead of the 80's poll... well, the only reason is that I don't like 80's much and I guess that's not a good reason !

Neoptolemos, if you're willing to run the 80s poll, many many thanks. You can count on me as a participant of course.

Excellent Honorio, hosting a party without participants is kinda boring. And LonesomePanda, I'm fine with anything. I prefer the 60s and probably the 70s to the 80s as well, but every decade has its share of brilliance, so I don't mind doing either.

I'm with you for the 80's
It's far from being my favorite decade (although 2 of my current top 10 albums are from the 80's) but I'm here to learn and discover new things
And I think february is the right moment to start and Neoptolemos the man of the situation as we say in France

It's up to the person putting together the song poll but I think we should have a set number instead of just submitting however many you want to. I'm all for upping the songs to 250 or 300 or whatever but having some people submitting 100 and some submitting 500 or more doesn't seem right.

I thought that it would be simpler if you can post lists as long as you wish but if only the 100 first would be taken into account. Making hard choices and leaving some songs you adore is part of the game !
And well, 80's is OK for me. I guess on the 1st round I won't vote for some years (1981 ??? ) but I might discover much more things than if we do a 60's or 70's poll.

If the rule for the 80s poll, is at least 5 albums or songs per list per year, there might be some trouble. The weakest year for music for me actually seems to be the year I came into this world, unfortunately (1981). If it wasn't for Zappa's 80s albums, R.E.M., and Prince, there would be a huge gap in my musical knowledge from about 1981-1987. I think 80s singles though are particularly strong, as long as I kind find an easy way to find out which year some of those catchy 80s tunes I like (but don't own) were released. AM could be a source, is there any other website where I can just type a song and find out when it was first released?

I've just checked how many songs and albums I have in my rankings from the 80s, and guess what? I've got the most songs from the 80s and second most albums from the 80s! Guess I underestimated the decade, heh.

Jonah: I usually just type in the name of the song on wikipedia, and something will pop up. If I can't find it there, I check amazon.com.

jonah, go to www.allmusic.com
It's the online encyclopedia of music

Seems like an even mix of people who want to do the '80s or a different decade next. Since we're doing all of the decades eventually, my vote is to go backwards and do the '80s next as someone else suggested. I don't mind that decade personally, and we're going to have to do it at some point anyway, so let's do it now.

P.S. I know this is anal, but since I work with words it has always bothered me a little. When abbreviating a decade the apostrophe goes in front of the number, not after. ('80s correct) (80's not correct). If you type out the whole number it's just 1990s, not 1990's. Thanks.

I'm all for 80's and really looking forward to it. There is a bunch of stuff from that decade that I've been discovering recently after pushing it aside for the past 10 years.

'80s it is. That makes the total schedule:

xx-xx-xx - xx-xx-xx: Survivor

12-01-07 - 12-31-07: Submitting the top 100 albums of all time to Anthony. (Any albums in excess of 100 will be posted but will not counted towards the final list)

01-01-08: Anthony will post the results of the 2007/08 AM Forum Top 100 Albums Poll

01-01-08 - 01-15-08: Submitting a top 10 albums and assigning each a number of points between 5 and 30 such that all the albums total 100 points to Rocky Raccoon

01-01-08 - 01-31-08: Submitting the top 100 songs of all time to Moonbeam. (Any albums in excess of 100 will be counted towards the final list)

02-01-08: Moonbeam will post the results of the 2007/08 AM Forum Top 100 Songs Poll

02-01-08 - 02-31-08: Submitting a top 5 songs and albums of songs from 1981 to Neoptolemos. (Any albums in excess of 5 will be counted towards the final list)

03-01-08 - 03-31-08: Submitting a top 5 songs and albums of songs from 1982 to Neoptolemos. (Any albums in excess of 5 will be counted towards the final list)

04-01-08 - 04-31-08: Submitting a top 5 songs and albums of songs from 1983 to Neoptolemos. (Any albums in excess of 5 will be counted towards the final list)

05-01-08 - 05-31-08: Submitting a top 5 songs and albums of songs from 1984 to Neoptolemos. (Any albums in excess of 5 will be counted towards the final list)

06-01-08 - 06-31-08: Submitting a top 50 artists of all time to Moonbeam. (Any artists in excess of 50 will be counted towards the final list)

07-01-08: Moonbeam will post the results of the 2007/08 AM FOrum Top 50 Artists Poll

...

11-01-08 - 11-31-08: Submitting a top 5 songs and albums of songs from 1989 to Neoptolemos. (Any albums in excess of 5 will be counted towards the final list)

12-01-08 - 12-31-08: Submitting a top 100 songs and albums from the 1980s to Neoptolemos. (Any songs or albums short of 100 will be counted as the average of the unranked songs or albums)

01-01-09: Neoptolemos will post the results of the Top 100 songs and albums from the 1980s.

Can someone explain to me why we're not having a set number (you can go over 100 or 5) for some of the polls? I don't get that at all.

For the 1980s poll I'm just following Henrik's lead, he had a minimum of 5. As far as the songs and artists go, I think we might have to talk about that. Perhaps it's better to just stick to a certain number.

5 is much too low !
Why not 10, 15 or even 20 like we did for the 90's ?

The minimum was 5, the maximum for albums was 20 and songs 50. That should be plenty for 1 year, no? I think a minimum of 5 is good, we don't want to scare people away.. the more the merrier.

"As far as the songs and artists go, I think we might have to talk about that. Perhaps it's better to just stick to a certain number."

Way better. Everybody submitting different sized ballots kind of ruins the list in my opinion. I would suggest making a max of 200, maybe 250 songs and allowing a ballot to go under that mark but not over.

ok for a MINIMUM of 5, of course

I'm happy to go with the '80s next, as it is by FAR my favorite decade. Plus, I need a little time to let my '70s collection grow.

Neo, aren't you going to consider the year 1980? Wouldn't that be starting in February?

As for the songs list, I just don't want to discourage anyone from making a long list because the songs won't be included. With the formula, the songs far down in such a list won't have too much weight, anyway.

I hope some eighties album's votes aren't damaged because people with small collections from that year can't vote unless they find 5 albums they like.

Maybe I'll just sit back, watch the fun, and start listening to your suggestions.

That's why I didn't participate in the '90s version, for the most part. I'm not a big fan of the decade, but I did pay attention to the results.

Moonbeam: Yes, my bad, of course we'll start with 1980.

Jonah: You could always participate in the songs polls, getting 5 songs shouldn't be too much of a problem. And I suppose I could include a list of fewer albums for certain years. It's not like it's an official competition, we can bend the rules a little from time to time.

John: Sounds good to me, Moonbeam.. what do you think? Max of 200 or 250?

I promise I'm going to say this just once more. You guys should really try out Rhapsody. It's perfect for stuff like this because you're only committing 10-15 bucks a month to listen to all the music you want. Is it good for getting albums you want to own? No, not really. But, it is hands down the best option for finding music you've never heard instead of going to the store or Itunes and blowing money on music you might not like. Believe me, I don't work for them, I'm just a happy customer.

It's going to be hard for me, I only like 5 albums from the 80s...
It excludes me of the game.
But for the songs, I think I will be able to find 10 good songs for each year of this worthless decade.

I've already got my '80s albums lists ready to go! The songs shouldn't be too tough either. For the '70s, there are a few years where I only like about 5 albums, so that should be tougher.

A plan right up until the start of 2009 - that's a long time,I could be in Luxembourg by then for all I know...

I definitely like the rules from the 90s poll, don't get me wrong. I don't think they should be changed.

Rhapsody looks really promising John. It will be a great way to listen to like the top 5 albums from each year in the eighties so my list can qualify. Not a lot of Zappa on there though.

If you remember the Zappa talk from other threads there are some streaming tracks from the perfect album Burnt Weeny Sandwich here:

http://radioblogclub.com/search/0/zappa

I don't think you'd like them out of the context of the album's order though. Valerie and Theme from Burnt Weeny Sandwich are both from the album.

I've got it on reserve at the library. We'll see if the disc is playable even. You never know at the library.

Unfortunately, Rhapsody is US only
In Europe, we have Deezer or Radioblog but nothing as reliable
UNless some Europeans here know a good site where you can listen to music on demand ?
PS : when you type Rhapsody on Google here, this is what you find

sorry
the link : http://www.rhapsody-fr.com/

Well that's too bad. That site isn't going to help much. I'm not sure about another subscription site. I think the Zune marketplace might be US only as well but it's worth a shot. Napster might have a subscription plan as well.

Many thanks Neo for continuing with the decade poll!
I will participate of course.

For non french speakers, the "Rhapsody Of Fire" above is a "Symphonic & Epic Metal Band" from Italy
I think I'll start a thread saying "Why are the Beatles so high when Rhapsody on Fire is not even ranked at AM ?"
I had a friend in my master program last year who was playing keyboards in a symphonic metal band, the style is very popular in Northern Europe, they had an opera singer, keyboards and a Death metal rhythm section
Needless to say you couldn't help but laughing. Happy he wasn't present when I listened to the Cd he lent me...

2007/08 all-time top 100 songs : january 2008 (date has to be fixed)(Moonbeam)

artists top 100 : date has to be fixed : before or after Survivor ? Guy in charge unknown

I have another idea : we had a lot of fun with the 1990's poll. It's a very good way to discover new albums, artists and songs. So why don't we pursue with another decade ? My idea was to do the 00's, but as Honorio pointed out, it would be better to wait until 2009. He suggested to do the 80's in 2008, then the 70's in 2009.
Why not ?
Henrik, do you feel like doing it or have you got any other idea ?

So, are any of these three actually happening? 'Cuz I don't see threads for dem bad boyz.

For the songs, see http://pub37.bravenet.com/forum/3172289350/

The artists ranking will start around June/July, so as to finish together with Survivor, and the 80s poll will start next month. Here's a timetable I put together for your convenience (I've been a little bored):

xx-xx-xx - xx-xx-xx: Survivor

12-01-07 - 12-31-07: Submitting the top 100 albums of all time to Anthony. (Any albums in excess of 100 will be posted but will not counted towards the final list)

01-01-08: Anthony will post the results of the 2007/08 AM Forum Top 100 Albums Poll

01-01-08 - 01-15-08: Submitting a top 10 albums and assigning each a number of points between 5 and 30 such that all the albums total 100 points to Rocky Raccoon.

01-16-08: Rocky Raccoon will post the results of the 2007 AM Pazz&Jop Poll.

01-01-08 - 01-31-08: Submitting the top 100 songs of all time to Moonbeam. (Any albums in excess of 100 but no more than 200 will be counted towards the final list)

02-01-08: Moonbeam will post the results of the 2007/08 AM Forum Top 100 Songs Poll

02-01-08 - 02-29-08: Submitting a top 5 songs and albums of songs from 1980 to Neoptolemos. (Any albums in excess of 5 will be counted towards the final list)

03-01-08 - 03-31-08: Submitting a top 5 songs and albums of songs from 1981 to Neoptolemos. (Any albums in excess of 5 will be counted towards the final list)

04-01-08 - 04-30-08: Submitting a top 5 songs and albums of songs from 1982 to Neoptolemos. (Any albums in excess of 5 will be counted towards the final list)

05-01-08 - 05-31-08: Submitting a top 5 songs and albums of songs from 1983 to Neoptolemos. (Any albums in excess of 5 will be counted towards the final list)

06-01-08 - 06-30-08: Submitting a top 50 artists of all time to Moonbeam. (Any artists in excess of 50 will be counted towards the final list)

07-01-08: Moonbeam will post the results of the 2007/08 AM FOrum Top 50 Artists Poll

...

11-01-08 - 11-30-08: Submitting a top 5 songs and albums of songs from 1989 to Neoptolemos. (Any albums in excess of 5 will be counted towards the final list)

12-01-08 - 12-31-08: Submitting a top 100 songs and albums from the 1980s to Neoptolemos. (Any songs or albums short of 100 will be counted as the average of the unranked songs or albums)

12-01-08 - 12-31-08: Submitting a top 100 albums of all time to a volunteer. (Any albums in excess of 100 will be posted but will not counted towards the final list)

01-01-09: Neoptolemos will post the results of the Top 100 songs and albums from the 1980s.

01-01-09: A volunteer will post the results of the 2007/08 AM Forum Top 100 Albums Poll

01-01-09 - 01-15-09: Submitting a top 10 albums and assigning each a number of points between 5 and 30 such that all the albums total 100 points to a volunteer

01-16-09: Rocky Raccoon will post the results of the 2007 AM Pazz&Jop Poll.

01-01-09 - 01-31-08: Submitting the top 100 songs of all time to a volunteer. (Any albums in excess of 100 but no more than 200 will be counted towards the final list)

02-01-09: A volunteer will post the results of the 2007/08 AM Forum Top 100 Songs Poll

02-01-09 - 02-30-09: Submitting a top 5 songs and albums of songs from 1970 to LonesomePanda. (Any albums in excess of 5 will be counted towards the final list)

03-01-09 - 03-28-09: Submitting a top 5 songs and albums of songs from 1970 to LonesomePanda. (Any albums in excess of 5 will be counted towards the final list)

04-01-09 - 04-31-09: Submitting a top 5 songs and albums of songs from 1971 to LonesomePanda. (Any albums in excess of 5 will be counted towards the final list)

...

Last 2 years should be 1971 and 1972 obviously. I have no idea why I planned ahead all the way through 2009.. but like I said, boredom makes you do silly things.

I see I've made some more copy/paste errors.. oh well, you get the point.

I will graduate from my swedish university somewhere between 1979 and 1960! :)

I made a Java program to help me organize my thoughts about lists.

Basically it does this. It picks four albums, asks you to rank those four albums best to worst. Then it picks four more, then four more, then four more, and it finds the total list which best explains the answers you gave.

What if you give contradictions? Like you say Album A > Album B, Album B > Album C, Album C > Album A? It can handle that, because it finds the list with the fewest contradictions.

When finding the next four to ask about, it even looks for the most telling matchups. It finds four albums that are close to each other in current rank and haven't been against each other before. And it favors the ones with the least certainty based on current information.

It's way easier to do it this way than to try to do it based on memory.

Is this the scheme?

07: We did the 90s (1990-99)
08: We do the 80s (1980-89)
09: We do the 70s (1970-79)
10: We do the 60s (1960-69) and let the 00s sink in...
11: We do the 00s (2000-09)

Very nice BillAdama, care to share that program?

And yes Fred, that's the idea.

It's beautiful. Now I can buy my time managers a few years in advance!

If you really want the program I could give you a version, only I'd have to work on it to make it more user friendly. Right now the way of entering data is extremely user-unfriendly. (Also you have to run it from the command prompt. I don't know how to make programs runnable from clickable icons.)

If there's enough demand, maybe I'll try to make it into an Applet and put it on my website.

I'm afraid I have no clue either how to make an application out of it. Either way, I'd be very interested in the program, even if it's user-unfriendly. I'm sure I could get it to work. :)

I'd be very interested in the program, Bill!

Me too!

Neo wrote:
02-01-08 - 02-29-08: Submitting a top 5 songs and albums of songs from 1980 to Neoptolemos. (Any albums in excess of 5 will be counted towards the final list)


Neo, since I will be on holidays in February, can I send you my top 5 already in January?

And BillAdama, I would love to work with such a Java program as well!

Of course Andre. I sent BillAdama an email concerning the program but haven't received a reply yet.

OK, thanks Neo. Really looking forward to the 80's poll, it is also 'my' decade.

I've been pondering over this, should I allow any song or album made during a particular year or just the albums (and songs on them) listed under a particular year on AM? If I am to allow all songs, what is the correct release date? Because sometimes songs are released a year before the album is, etc.

Anyone any ideas?

I'm pretty sure Henrik uses the dates on allmusic.com.

As for the whole song/album release date thing, I think Henrik's policy is to use the date of a song's first recorded release, whether as a single or as an album track. Which is why, for instance, all the songs on this site from the Thriller album are listed under 1982, even though most of them were released as singles in 1983 or 84. It's also why "Radio Free Europe" is listed under 1981, the year it came out as a single, even though it didn't appear on an album until 1983.

Is that what you were asking, Neo?

Well, I use first record release (single or album) for AM and I used it for the '90s poll as well.

Example:
Both Chris Isaak's "Wicked Game" and Depeche Mode's "Personal Jesus" came out in 1989. "Wicked Game" was released on LP in 1989 and as a single in 1990, while "Personal Jesus" was released as a single in 1989 and on LP in 1990.

In the case non-AM songs (or non-AM albums for that matter) were given points in two yearly polls, I combined the scores, however this never resulted in an overall top 10 place. In the case of albums and songs at AM, I had a sentence in bold saying (using 1999 as an example):
"Please have a look at the 1999 album and song lists before voting, as albums and songs listed under 1999 at Acclaimed Music will only be counted in the forum poll if they are included in this month's ballots."

Neo, it's completely up to you, but my experience from the '90s poll is that counting scores from top 10 lists (rather than top 20 lists) would save you from a lot of work, but would not change the outcome much at all. Lesser known albums/songs that are a few voters' favorites would have a slightly greater chance of making the combined top 10 of the year, but IMO that would be a more interesting outcome.

Yes, thank you. That was the subquestion though. The main question was: Allow every song or just the albums featured on AM in the top 3000 and bubbling under (and songs on those albums or songs featured in the AM songs list). I think including all songs is more fair, but I'm not gonna check for every song if they were really released in a particular year.
Then again, chances that a song not on AM or an album on AM makes it to the next round are slim.

Didn't see your post Henrik, thanks as well. I'll just copy that line and allow every song and count lists up to 20 albums/songs. If that turns out to be too much work I could always downgrade that to 10 for the next year.

Neo, just submitted my contribution for the 1980 part of the 80's poll (I got your permission to send it in earlier, due to upcoming holidays)!

... and I just read your confirmation mail!

So BillAdama.. can we have it?

I don't think I got your mail. I haven't really read this thread since I last posted.

I'll work on the interface and make it available a little later.

That's great, thanks.

Here's the thing though. This is a brief overview of my priorities.

My classes
My work
My webcomic
Having time to relax and enjoy myself
This

So I can't promise I'll have a version of the program I'm willing to share all that soon.