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Re: AM Survivor: Week 1 (plus Loophole Round results)

I'm going to change my list a bit this round. I think Cave deserves a second shot from me. I have a feeling I wouldn't mind his music if I got into it.

Voting Out

1. Oasis
2. The Jam
3. Patti Smith - I overlooked her during the first round. A unique voice for sure, but I've hardly heard anything by her, and if Horses is the only think propping her up in the top 100, from what I heard from the last thread that isn't good enough.
4. Pet Shop Boys
5. Paul Simon - Earns a lot of respect for being half of S + G but the rest of the stuff beyond Bridge Over Troubled Water that has made it to my ears is dated and bland. His voice is a little too playful compared to some of the dark vibes on S + G songs.

Re: AM Survivor: Week 1 (plus Loophole Round results)

The tribe has spoken: AC/DC are not top 100 material. Well, neither are:

1. BEASTIE BOYS: With Angus and Malcolm out of the picture, these NYC frat boys move up to the top of my list. I'm not interested in fighting for anyone's right to party, I'm fighting to get these three juvenile tools off this island.

2. METALLICA: I like two things about Metallica: their guitar player, Kirk Hammett, and the song "Until It Sleeps" - the most un-Metallica-like song in their catalogue. As far as I'm concerned, the rest can go. (I have a theory that if Bob Rock hadn't stepped into the picture in '91 with his "smooth-the-edges" approach to rock music production, these guys wouldn't be anywhere near the top 100.) Anthony's Token Point of Superficiality #2: Lars Ulrich is a loser.

3. FRANK ZAPPA: Spent too much time fighting the Washington Wives and not enough trying to write good melodies.

4. PET SHOP BOYS: In an effort to reacquaint myself with their history, I went to the wikipedia page and someone has vandalized the shit out of it. Tennant and Lowe are bad, yes, but they don't deserve that treatment! (I have to admit, though, "West End Girls" is tolerable, but that's only when I'm in the mood for 80s cheese and am sick of the 200 or so songs of that decade that I enjoy more - which is never.)

5. ELLIOTT SMITH: This is either a statement vote or a cry for help - I haven't decided yet. The island is already full of singer/songwriters; we don't need any more, especially another one with the "tortured genius" tag (Cobain gets that award.) Plus, if none of Smith's three acclaimed songs appeal to me (which is the case here), it doesn't motivate me to explore the rest of his catalogue. That's the statement part. So here's the cry for help - am I listening to the wrong ones?

Re: AM Survivor: Week 1 (plus Loophole Round results)

1)Pet Shop Boys:Get 'em outta here - how did they escape last week?
2)Black Sabbath:One-dimensional sludge,god damn did they make boring albums - off
3)Creedence Clearwater Revivial:A few of their songs can be enjoyable,but like AC/DC doesn't it seem like they were recording the same song over and over?
4)Guns N'Roses:3 or 4 good songs,one decent album - but so much shite material,a sub-par singer who butchers some rock classics...
5)Elliott Smith - His contribution to rockn'roll history is far too small to deserve a place in the top 100

Re: AM Survivor: Week 1 (plus Loophole Round results)

As I stated in the Loophole Round, I will restrict my voting to the artists in a short list of acts that I dislike.

1. Oasis- These pretentious twats have based their career on the act that we all know that I despise. But at least the Beatles were original wankers.

2. Bob Marley and the Wailers- Again, reggae just doesn't cut it for me, and any enjoyment I could have garnered from Marley's music was spoiled by the countless images of drunk frat boys getting their Rasta on to his tunes.

3. John Lennon- My least favorite Beatle. I'm not overly familiar with his catalogue, but I really dislike the songs I do know of his.

4. Pink Floyd- Another band whose music is tarnished by the image of its fans- if the stoned, incomprehensible mumblings of countless undergrads wasn't enough, their bloated prog pretension is enough to push me over the edge.

5. The Beatles- I know there is no chance to get them out, but this is a statement vote. I honestly like them less than any of the artists on the island, including the ones I am hanging with more points.

Re: AM Survivor: Week 1 (plus Loophole Round results)

1. Pet Shop Boys : Way too overrated. I hadn't noticed them in the Loophole round, othewise I would have put them out right away. I don't like that kind of music (80's trauma ? I was a teenager then)
2. The Ramones : Critic's band. I still don't understand why they picked them.
3. Black Sabbath : I like hard rock, I suppose they were inflential, but the only song I know (Paranoid) doesn't help.
4. Elton John : 10% of his works is valuable to me.
5. Primal scream : don't dislike them, but I don't think they are part of the 100 best artists.

Re: AM Survivor: Week 1 (plus Loophole Round results)

1 - Primal Scream
2 - Bjork
3 - Run DMC
4 - John Lennon
I don't like Imagine, I don't like Instant Karma, I don't like working class hero and I totally don't like Yoko... The only song I know from him and that I actually enjoy listening to is jealous guy, not enough to deserve top 100
5 - Pavement
I just did not get the point...

I was going to vote against the Flaming Lips but as I only know a few of their songs and am going to listen to a full album to finish my 90's list, I have changed my vote, since I already have listened to 2 Pavement's albums.

Re: AM Survivor: Week 1 (plus Loophole Round results)

Sorry !

i forgot Madonna; So please, read :

1. Pet Shop Boys
2. Madonna
3. The Ramones
4. Black Sabbath
5. Primal Scream

I'll save Elton due to age (and because he was my favorite artist for 1 month in 1982, before I heard about bowie, The Beatles, Springsteen, Tom Waits, etc..)

Re: AM Survivor: Week 1 (plus Loophole Round results)

I guess I'm sticking with the same five...

1. Tom Waits
2. The Band
3. Blur
4. Nick Cave
5. Pet Shop Boys

Re: AM Survivor: Week 1 (plus Loophole Round results)

1) Frank Zappa/The Mothers Of Invention
2) Paul Simon

and...
3) Fleetwood Mac - hmm, I dunno. I must confess to not having heard more than a few tracks off 'Rumours', but my early impressions are that this company might be a bit of a struggle for these guys 'n' gals to keep up with.
4) Steely Dan - similar situation as with FM. 70s album rock that I just haven't really had very much contact with. Apologies, I will add them to my list.
5) Black Sabbath - influential without a doubt, but followers have improved upon Sabbath's formula. And they're from my hometown, so this vote didn't come easily!

Re: AM Survivor: Week 1 (plus Loophole Round results)

Well, I'm sad to see AC/DC go (I like that one song they've made over and over again), but I'm glad Wilco and the Lips made it:

5 Points: Eminem - Still not a fan.

4 Points: Patti Smith - Just not a fan. Overrated.

3 Points: The Doors - I think that I was a little too critical of the Doors last time around. They're overrated, but not completely worthless. Maybe it's because I heard "Break on Through" in the last week that Patti Smiths is bumped above, though I couldn't bear to listen to a whole Doors album.

2 Points: Frank Zappa - I actually am a bit ignorant of Frank Zappa, and I kinda like all the other bands in some way shape or form so I guess Frank gets my vote because I'm ignorant. I'll have to try and listen to him in case he makes it through to next week.

1 Point: Bjork - It's kind of a debate between her and the Pet Shop Boys, but lucky for PSB, I just discovered them and actually kinda like their stuff. Bjork, I'm just not a huge fan though I do like her in bits and pieces.

Re: AM Survivor: Week 1 (plus Loophole Round results)

Gonna give Zappa one week the benefit of the doubt (have been listening to Burnt Weenie Sandwich and some live stuff), so no 5 points this time.

The other 2 already mentioned:
5 points - Pet Shop Boys
4 points - Metallica

Newcomers:
3 points - Run-D.M.C.
This island is not for one-hit-wonders, so please "walk this way" towards the sea.

2 points - Guns N' Roses
As said before, I'm not much of a hard rock fan. The island party continues, but Axl and Co. drown in a november rain.

1 point - The Band
Never can play an album all the way through, guess it's too outdated, too dusty for me.

Re: AM Survivor: Week 1 (plus Loophole Round results)

Only one of the group I voted for got cut, so here are my originals plus one.
1) Primal Scream - 'Screamadellica' just isn't that good, and supposedly it's their crowning achievement.
2) T. Rex - Too mediocre to be in the top 100. Go Bang a Gong somewhere else.
3) Kraftwerk - Beep Beep Boop Whirrr Buzzz Bleep Bloop Beep Bop Whirr Buzz Buzz Beep Boop.
4) The Cure - A few good songs, but mostly whiney. And dude, you're like 40-something now, enough with the ridiculous makeup and hair.
5) Pet Shop Boys - A few good synth-pop numbers, but not nearly enough to have them in the top 100.

Re: AM Survivor: Week 1 (plus Loophole Round results)

1. Black Sabbath: I only got one Sabbath album, the acclaimed “Paranoid”, and I only enjoy the title theme and “Planet Caravan”. I don’t know if it’s fair to throw out of the island an artist having only heard an album but anyway I don’t like the style they represent.
2. Beastie Boys: the albums I own are a quite indigestible mix of rap-metal pills and instrumental jams.
3. Pavement: yes, I’ve heard again the Pavement albums and I didn’t find them so nasty this time. Well, the guitars were not that bad (I mean, I found interesting the guitar work on “Newark Wilder” but I disliked some note choices on “Stop Breathing” but there’s one thing I can’t stand: Stephen Malkmus’ voice…
4. Oasis: I like some songs from the first two albums but the albums as a whole are often monotonous and unimaginative. And there’s the unbearable arrogant attitude…
5. Run DMC: as with Black Sabbath only own one album, “Raising Hell”, and despite a terrific first four-stretch songs (from “Peter Piper” to “Walk This Way” it gets repetitive and boring after that. Just like (sadly) many rap albums.

Re: AM Survivor: Week 1 (plus Loophole Round results)

1. Creedence Clearwater Revival
2. Pavement
3. Elliott Smith
4. Depeche Mode
5. Madonna

CCR, Pavement and Madonna I made cases for one and all, last week. Elliott Smith is just fucking boring. He's no Nick Drake, and he's certainly no Leonard Cohen.

Depeche Mode's Ultra is, if I'm not mistaken, the only album I've ever actually thrown away. I replaced it with a double-album best of, but even that fails to make an impact.

Re: AM Survivor: Week 1 (plus Loophole Round results)

Hey, all. I’m back.

1. FLEETWOOD MAC. See my comments of last week. Without Rumours, this band is nowhere near the top 100, and even that album is not all it’s cracked up to be.
2. METALLICA. I didn’t realize we were going to be voting metal out this soon (not that I’m complaining), but if AC/DC is gone, these guys HAVE to be.
3. DEPECHE MODE. Boy, I’m sure not gonna make any friends this way—voting out a band that just made it in via the Loophole round (sincerest apologies to AJackson, Neoptolemos, Henrik, Moonbeam and Honorio). And I was around in the eighties, and I know the loyalty DM fans have to the band…I’m nervous about poking that hornet’s nest. But so I will…they’ve got some songs I guess I kind of like, but lyrically, they’re the dictionary example of sophomoric: sarcasm without wit, lack of emotional range, and relentless narcissism. Musically, even within their own genre, they’re miles behind Nine Inch Nails, New Order, Eurythmics…hell, even ABC. Plus, they recorded “Somebody,” the worst love song in human history (I know it’s grossly unfair to judge artists on their worst song, but that’s just unforgivable).
4. GUNS ‘N’ ROSES. See comment on Metallica, above. Metalheadz would hate this, but GnR is very comparable to their rough contemporaries, the Pet Shop Boys—5 or 6 good songs, but that’s about it—it’s just that four of them happened to be on one album (my favorite GnR is actually “You Could Be Mine”).
5. PAUL SIMON. To me he’ll always be the cute little mascot of early Saturday Night Live, performing “Still Crazy After All These Years” in a chicken suit. I really enjoyed Graceland when it came out (although the more I learned about South African music, the less I was interested in the knockoff version), and I don’t have any major objections to him. I also met him and Edie Brickell once, and they were very nice. And short. But I’m not very impressed with any of his solo stuff either before or after 1986…and I guess I also kind of feel that it’s not really fair that he’s on the list both as a solo act and as a member of S&G (Lennon he ain’t).

I had Frank Zappa on my “out” list for the Loophole Round, and I almost put him here again, but I decided to pull him back for the time being, partly because of Jonah’s impassioned defense of him. As it happens, my brother, a huge Zappa fan, is coming down to Houston for Thanksgiving, so I’m going to ask him for the Zappa Tutorial 101 before I decide exactly where Frank belongs.

Re: AM Survivor: Week 1 (plus Loophole Round results)

Here’s something I meant to post before I left.

Female people on the island:

Björk, Kim Deal (Pixies), Candida Doyle (Pulp), Aretha Franklin, Kim Gordon (Sonic Youth), Debbie Harry (Blondie), PJ Harvey, Madonna, Christine McVie (Fleetwood Mac), Joni Mitchell, Stevie Nicks (Fleetwood Mac), Patti Smith, Tina Weymouth (Talking Heads), Meg White (White Stripes).

Did I miss any?

Re: AM Survivor: Week 1 (plus Loophole Round results)

"Somebody" is one of my favourites!

Re: AM Survivor: Week 1 (plus Loophole Round results)

...and it's NOT a guilty pleasure!

Re: AM Survivor: Week 1 (plus Loophole Round results)

I agree, Henrik. "Somebody" rules!

Re: AM Survivor: Week 1 (plus Loophole Round results)

I agree too. Although I (guilty pleasure?) prefer the Dune version.

Re: AM Survivor: Week 1 (plus Loophole Round results)

"Did I miss any?"

Nico (The Velvet Underground), was kind of member of the band '66 - '67.

Re: AM Survivor: Week 1 (plus Loophole Round results)

Did I miss any? Yes, schleuse:
Gillian Gilbert (New Order)
Cynthia Robinson & Rose Stone (Sly & the Family Stone)
Maureen Tucker (Velvet Underground). Yes, she was a girl

Re: AM Survivor: Week 1 (plus Loophole Round results)

I hope my defense of FZ keeps him alive for at least another round.

Anyway the Zappadan festival is nigh:

http://ristocrats.blogspot.com/2007/11/yes-were-calling-out-to-you-you-over.html

We have to keep him around!

He was so prolific too. I could probably give everyone here a weekly Zappa 101 album 'assignment' for a whole year and not have to repeat myself.

Time to get ready for the more mainstream Thanksgiving holiday. Happy Turkey Day everyone!

Re: AM Survivor: Week 1 (plus Loophole Round results)

I nearly snipped the "Somebody" comment, and now I wish I had. However, I can't honestly take it back.

When I was 19, I broke up with a girl because she loved that song. Very shallow and stupid, yes, but hey, I was young.

Sorry, Henrik; sorry, Moonbeam. No offense intended. As I said, I can get behind a few DM songs--"People Are People" and some of the stuff on Violator--and anyone who covers "Route 66" can't be all bad.

Re: AM Survivor: Week 1 (plus Loophole Round results)

As long as you don't break up with us...

Re: AM Survivor: Week 1 (plus Loophole Round results)

Good catch, Honorio. I'm mortified that I missed Gillian--especially because I think I saw New Order live when she was in the band.

As for Maureen Tucker, I always forget everybody in VU except Reed & Cale (I don't really consider Nico a member).

Re: AM Survivor: Week 1 (plus Loophole Round results)

I’ve seen New Order too playing live in my city (back in… 1983!! the year of “Blue Monday” and “Power, Corruption and Lies”) with a completely drunk Bernard Sumner.

Re: AM Survivor: Week 1 (plus Loophole Round results)

I am trying to get over my shock at Pavement's way-too-early jeopardy. I fear they are tarnished by their label as the standardbearers for "lo-fi indie rock" -- a simplistic description which, even if apt, they transcended by the time of their 2nd album. As my comments in the 90's poll will indicate (yes, I know I still need to get them in, Henrik), I believe Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain to be their masterpiece, and by at least one length the greatest album of the 90's. I appreciated Ed Ames' comments from last round: "My thing with Pavement was that I always found the music immediate,organic,soulful and effotlessly catchy-the complete opposite of a commonly held notion of them as being cold,ironic and atonal," but I'd amend that to state they exist in both extremes... very often in the same line. That's what makes them great.

Okay enough of that. I'll state more on the sad day when they are voted off the island. It's time to put in my votes:

Repeats from last week:

1) Black Sabbath

2) Primal Scream

3) The Cure

And two new entries:

4) Kraftwerk -- I recognize their import as early electronic pioneers. But boy does their music sound antiseptic to me. I want my electronic music to have some soul or hip hop to it. If I am going to listen to robot music, then I want it to be funky robots like Daft Punk.

5) The Doors -- Boy do I expect to get some sh*t for this. That's all right, i can take it. Or will I? It seems to me that the Doors are generally a band that is tolerated more than loved, at most respected for evoking the dark side of the 60's culture. Well, sorry. No such respect or even toleration from me. Morrison was a bloated jerk/fool with a yen for bad poetry and a cheesy baritone croon. The whole band had knack for writing a catchy single, and then turning it into a long-winded muddle. The musicianship of this band is overrated, but they concededly had some fine moments. However, they lose major points for their ugly esthetics.

Re: AM Survivor: Week 1 (plus Loophole Round results)

You'll get no argument from me about the Doors, Schwah. The only reason they haven't appeared on my ballot yet is because I do have some respect for Manzarek.

Re: AM Survivor: Week 1 (plus Loophole Round results)

1. (5 pts) - Primal Scream
2. (4 pts) - The Jam
3. (3 pts) - T. Rex
4. (2 pts) - Guns N' Roses
5. (1 pt) - Massive Attack - The one new addition to my "bottom five" this week. I just don't see them as being significant enough to be Top 100 artists.

Re: AM Survivor: Week 1 (plus Loophole Round results)

schleuse - just a technical question:

Since we’re starting with 101 artists and if we’re voting out four acts per week, when will each round end/begin? (in other words, when is the switch from four acts per week to three, etc.?) You previously mentioned the first switch will take place at 40, but with 101 artists, 15 weeks will take us to 41. A suggestion: should five acts be eliminated this week, and then a switch to four until we arrive at 40?

Re: AM Survivor: Week 1 (plus Loophole Round results)

Sigh... it seems my favorite band is under attack. Keep in The Cure! Others that I'm not too keen about garnering some votes: Kraftwerk, Björk and The Doors. We'll have to see how it all pans out!

Re: AM Survivor: Week 1 (plus Loophole Round results)

Good question, Anthony.

I'll be honest--I'm improvising. We've got 15 or so weeks until we're down to a top 40 (or 41); I'll wait until we get a week (possibly this one) when there's a tie for the last spot, and boot out an extra artist then.

But, looking at voting patterns, ties might be fairly common, in which case we might be getting rid of artists a little faster than I anticipated. For that reason, I'm not too hung up about specific numbers at this point. Survivor's going to be a little looser and more informal than bracketology in that respect. Best I can do is to promise to keep the process transparent...if anyone thinks I'm ever unfair, please please please call me on it.

Re: AM Survivor: Week 1 (plus Loophole Round results)

OUT(please):
1 Guns'n'Roses:didn't notice they were here in week one,or maybe put it down as a bad dream or acid flashback.Just humourless, utterly banal metal pap.No wonder Cobain used to wince at the prospect of sharing a fan base with these clowns.I still recall seeing Axl Rose turn up at the Freddie Mercury tribute concert, and thinking 'this guy's got some balls'-and it wasn't on account of his cycling shorts.My only fond memory of the band is the guy jumping through a wedding cake, for no discernable reason, in the November Rain video.

2 The Police:911 is a joke

3 The Doors:Probably the most overrated American band of all time, certainly of the 60s.

4 Eminem:White men can be pushed before they jump.

5 Fleetwood Mac:Rumours spent nine years+ on the album charts in Britain-that's almost as long as the two world wars put together,and about as much fun.

Re: AM Survivor: Week 1 (plus Loophole Round results)

Ed, I think that line about Fleetwood Mac caused me to laugh more than I have in about a week. Cheers!

Re: AM Survivor: Week 1 (plus Loophole Round results)

Moonbeam -

I love that we can be in such concordance over Bjork, Missy, Prince (we love), Oasis, and Pink Floyd (we dislike); and yet be so diametrically opposed about the Beatles, Bob Marley (you dislike, I love), the Cure, Kraftwerk, and the Doors (you love, I dislike).

I enjoy trying to figure out patterns from the way different people feel about different artists/songs/albums on these boards. But time and again I find there are no such patterns to be found.

Re: AM Survivor: Week 1 (plus Loophole Round results)

Amen, Schwah! There is no definitive blueprint, which is what makes this place so great. Each artist here clearly grants consideration and respect, and collectively, this would make for one hell of an island! Every one of us has our own little corner of that island, but it's great to see how they merge and divide.

Re: AM Survivor: Week 1 (plus Loophole Round results)

Of the top 100 artists,probably less than half a dozen I would dislike - I just like just about everything acclaimed,but something has to go...

Re: AM Survivor: Week 1 (plus Loophole Round results)

I guess there are no patterns because we are all music lovers and connoisseurs.
Of course there are trends : Moonbeam doesn't love the 60's-70's, I don't love indie rock and prefer roots rock, blues and country.
But that's as far as you can go. We've been listening to every kind of music and we know ther's good and bad in every genre, even if we have affinities (is it an English world ? yes, I've just checked)with one era, one style, etc..

Re: AM Survivor: Week 1 (plus Loophole Round results)

Nicolas- I do like the 70s quite a bit! With the 60s, you're spot on, though.

Re: AM Survivor: Week 1 (plus Loophole Round results)

proof....of what we were talking avout

Re: AM Survivor: Week 1 (plus Loophole Round results)

To help make Schwah's point yet again:

Moonbeam, even if you "don't like the 60s," I notice that you're championing the Doors, which, given what I've been able to glean about your tastes, surprises me (they're one of the acts which, in my opinion, embodies the worst of the 60s).

nicolas, you're absolutely correct that although we all have small-c catholic musical tastes, we all have our particular affinities (great term)--mine is punk/indie, yours seems to be the roots of pop, jonmarck's seems to be singer-songwriter (perhaps others would like to chime in with theirs). Moonbeam's core affinities seem to be funk and synth-pop.

Moonbeam, is that a fair assessment? And, if so, care to explain your (seemingly anomalous) fondness for the Lizard King? Just curious.

Re: AM Survivor: Week 1 (plus Loophole Round results)

I'm definitely big on singer/songwriter and folk and I generally slag songs that get by on high production values (which is why I don't care about Prince and Pink Floyd). That's because the art is in the songwriting and the production is more science.

Re: AM Survivor: Week 1 (plus Loophole Round results)

I really agree with Jonmarck. neil Young said once that a good song is one that you can play with just an acoustic guitar.
Most of the time, it's true
That doesn't mean production isn't important though

Re: AM Survivor: Week 1 (plus Loophole Round results)

Sometimes art can extend to production. "On the Run" from Dark Side of the Moon was created by all four band members operating the faders simultaneously to create the perfect mix. And I'm sure that Spector, Wilson, Jones, etc. would say there's an art to production.

But by and large though, I would agree that the art is in the creation, not so much the "modifying". (except, I know people who'd disagree; they're the same ones who think "photoshopping" is an artform.)

Re: AM Survivor: Week 1 (plus Loophole Round results)

Schleuse is spot-on in his assessment of my bread and butter being funk and synth pop. I'd throw new wave and post-punk in there as well. As for the Doors, they simply have a lot of songs that I absolutely adore. Their dirty, brand of rock is infectious to me, especially in the summer. Playing "L.A. Woman" with the windows down as the oppressive heat rolls in is just a blast. I also tend to like their prettier side, as my favorite songs of theirs are the movingly ominous "Riders on the Storm" and the unabashedly gorgeous "The Crystal Ship". I'm not really into the whole mythology of Jim Morrison, although I do think he is a fantastic frontman.

The other acts who have released music in the 60s that I enjoy include The Velvet Underground, Nico, David Bowie, The Stooges, Jimi Hendrix and Can. Say of that what you will.

Re: AM Survivor: Week 1 (plus Loophole Round results)

jonmarck -

I think you have set up something of a false dichotomy. Somewhere between songwriting and production lies other important elements... arrangement; instrumentation; (sometimes) orchestration; musicianship; the singer's tone, phrasing, emotion, flow. Each of these is art, not science. And there is also art in how all of those elements are captured -- and which elements are emphasized in what way. Wouldn't all of you who voted "Like a Rolling Stone" first agree that Dylan was making an important artistic decision when he told Tom Wilson to raise the level on Al Kooper's organ? If he hadn't... it's still a great single, but it's not the same single that we have all come to know and love.

I can understand being turned off by too many bells and whistles when they detract from a good song or try to distract the listener from the fact that there is no good song (and will grant you that Pink Floyd is guilty of both of these sins far too often). I love the artistry of just Dylan and his fingerpicking on "Don't Think Twice." But, putting aside your assessment of Prince's songwriting, I also love the artistry -- yes, artistry -- of the famously bassless "When Doves Cry," complete with crazy overdubbed vocals, machine programed drums and synths galore. These elements don't distract from a great song, they complement the build of his lyrics, and enhance what is - let's be honest - a somewhat repetitive melody.

Re: AM Survivor: Week 1 (plus Loophole Round results)

You tell 'em, Schwah! Prince is a brilliant songwriter and instrumentalist above all else.

Re: AM Survivor: Week 1 (plus Loophole Round results)

I wasn't thinking of those two elements as a dichotomy. You're right that there's a lot more to music than songwriting and production. I'm a big old school punk fan, and most of those songs have completely substandard writing and sound awful. In those cases it's usually the innovation of the artist and the style that I admire. Sometimes I enjoy just the plain old solid musicianship. That's why I listen to jazz.

About When Doves Cry: It's one of my favourite Prince songs and it does have a great arrangement. When I talk about production I mean the cleanness of the recording and the quality of the mix. I find that most people pass good songs by because of bad recordings and vice versa.

Speaking of which, Anthony, before digital technology most mixes were performed by 4 or 5 people. If the band wasn't there the engineer would get the producer, assistant engineers, receptionist, and whoever else was available. They'd each get a list of "moves" that they would have to make throughout the song, and many times they'd mess it up and not have the time and money to redo it! The other day I was listening to an old James Brown track where they had to fade the voice in for one line in each progression and fade it out again, and do to the inaccuracy of the engineer the voice would fade out at a slightly different rate each time. Before digital technology mixes were as much a performance as the recording.