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From what I've noticed in bracketology and other posts most of you don't like hip-hop/rap unless it has a positive message. Why is that? There are plenty of rock tunes that have a less than honorable lyrics that are highly acclaimed. Is it because they are more subtle? I guess I don't understand how the only songs from the genre that are acclaimed are the ones that have this soapy clean message and really aren't anywhere even close to the best hip-hop songs ever made. It's not like rock and roll is void of misogyny, shady lyrics and sex. That's what made rock and roll what it is. Why the double standard?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not yelling racist. It's a polarizing genre and I don't think it has anything to do with race. To me, it's the 50's all over again where jazz enthusiasts didn't like their genre being one upped. Plenty of great jazz/big band/vocal records still came out, but rock and roll was there to stay and eventually became #1. That's what started happening about 5 years ago and hip-hop might be where rock and roll was in 1963-64.

Re: Hip-hop

Well, not only does hip hop fall well behind rock in terms of popularity, but COUNTRY sells more albums than hip hop. Truth be told I don't like much rock without a positive message, but I'm the type of person who counts an intelligent, informed message as a positive one. I guess what I'm saying is I don't care what they sing about so long as it's not butt stupid. That's what I hate about most hip hop. It's the most thoughtless, braindead, retarded form of music to ever exist. Sure there's great stuff coming from the Roots and the occasional Outkast single but they're hardly normal. There's occasional bad message hip hop that I'll enjoy. Eminem is one of those guys. Sometimes I find that type of stuff to be too malicious and self-destructive to enjoy though.

Re: Hip-hop

Good point, John.

I agree that it seems like it's almost only the so called "conscious rap" that gets recognition among the listeners who are into rock and pop. A shame really as there's tons of great stuff being neglected at face value because of it.

Re: Hip-hop

i don't anyone here would disregard a song purely because of its message. it might just be a coincidence.

by highly acclaimed, do you mean on the AM list? i haven't looked at it, so i don't know whether what you say is true or not, but if it is, it might also just be a coincidence. again, i can't see a music critic disregarding a song purely because of its message. as you said in your post, they've never disregarded songs from other genres because of their message, so chances are they would do the same for hip-hop/rap songs.

in the second part of your post, are you claiming that there is a bias towards hip-hop/rap in general (regardless of the message)? i can't see any reason for bias to exist. there's no reason to think that all music critics are rock enthusiasts who don't like their genre being one upped. a lot of music critics are probably quite interested in hip-hop.

as for hip-hop being as popular as rock in the future... well, possibly. who knows. rock continues to attract new fans even now, so if it does happen, it probably won't be for a while. btw, hip-hop's popularity certainly started a lot more than 5 years ago.

just out of interest, what hip-hop songs do you think should be highly acclaimed?

Re: Hip-hop

Jonmarck, how many rock songs are just as braindead? The #2 song of all time has pretty dumb lyrics. I'm not talking about dancehall rap. That can be good too, but yeah, that's dumb music made for dancing.

Also, hip-hop has been popular for more than 5 years but that's when it really became totally accepted in mainstream culture. I guess it's more like 7-8 years ago.

I don't understand how rap is the only genre that has the innovators higher than the guys who shaped the genre. You don't see Woody Guthrie higher than Bob Dylan, Little Richard higher than the Beatles or even Buddy Holly for that matter. Miles Davis and John Coltrane get the most acclaim not Louis Armstrong or Cab Calloway.

This is just off the top of my head and I didn't include any personal favorites that are less known. These are the best of the best of the past 15 years. AGain this is just off the top of my head so I'm definitely missing some. Some of these are on the AM list already but all of them should be ranked higher.

B.I.G.- Juicy, Hypnotize
Wu-Tang- CREAM, Triumph
2Pac- Hail Mary, Hold Ya Head Up
Outkast- BOB
Dre + Snoop- Nothing But a G Thang
Snoop Dogg- Whats My Name
GZA- Shadowboxin
Talib Kweli- Get By
Jay-Z- The Rulers Back
Kanye West- Jesus Walks

Re: Hip-hop

again, john, i haven't looked at the list to see whether or not you are right, but if you are, i'm just going to have to call it a coincidence.

Re: Hip-hop

Actually hip hop has been going strong since Licensed to Ill. The reason why the innovators are so high in hip hop is because they're the ones who DID shape the genre. Run DMC, The Beastie Boys and Public Enemy were the Beatles and Stones of hip hop. If you're thinking of the Woody Guthrie/Leadbelly/Muddy Waters of hip hop I think you should look more towards people like Sugarhill Gang or even as far back as James Brown or Funkadelic. The 90's was more a cash-in period for the genre (hence Vanilla Ice and MC Hammer). All the real stuff was made in the 80's.

Re: Hip-hop

I don't really agree with you there Jonmarck. Anyone with more than a passing interest in rap should realize that the genre really settled during the early 90s, and that the period from the last years of the eighties to the mid nineties was a creative peak for rap music. MC Hammer and Vanilla Ice are hardly representative of the genre in that period.

Although I wish there were more rap on the acclaimed list, the rap that's on the list is usually quite good and don't really have a stong leaning towards the "positive" side. Just look at the top rap albums from last year. Both straight up cocaine-rap albums. And great ones at that (Ghostface "Fishscale at #6 and Clipse "Hell Hath No Fury" at #14).