The Old Acclaimed Music Forum
Go to the NEW FORUM
I've tried, I really have, I've even tried to get all the way through Trout Mask Replica, but gave up after I got to Pachuco Cadaver (7th song I think). I am truely baffled at how this album, or the group for that matter, has received any acclaim whatsoever.
Is there anyone who actually likes Beefy and could elaborate?
No - I couldn't get into Trout Mask Relica - it's the most expensive single disc album I've ever bought and I'm not sure I like it...
I really think that a lot of it's acclaim comes from people throwing it on there lists but not ranking it very high. I see it around 50-100 but rarely do I see it higher. Everybody I have discussed it with realizes how difficult and creative the album and the band is, but I think I know two people who actually enjoy listening to it. So, I think it's on a lot of charts out of respect rather than love for the band/album. Thus, it's vastly overrated.
Hmmm...I'm in complete agreement with John except for the "vastly overrated" part. Cappy B. is his own category, I think. Unlike classical music or even jazz, wild experimentation is a tricky thing for a pop artist to pull off (since "pop," by definition, is not music for connoisseurs). Even Radiohead, or Beck, or (early) Zappa make music which is, at least in theory, accessible to almost everyone. Cappy is radical because he's one of the only pop musicians to discard popular appeal entirely...and that makes it VERY hard to evaluate him.
Having said that, no, I don't enjoy him personally, and having slogged my way through Trout Mask Replica and Doc at the Radar Station a couple of times each, I've given him as much of a chance as I care to.
Your right, it is tough to evaluate. But, the fact that nobody really knows how to evaluate it proves that it is overrated. It is getting thrown on lists everyday even though not many people are sure if it's good or not.
I say if you don't like it after 3-4 listens it doesn't belong anywhere near your list and I would bet that 60-70% of critics that continually vote for Trout Mask Replica are in that boat. Granted there are some people who get it and really like the music. Vote it #1 for all I care. But, to not like the album and say it's one of the top albums of all time is just insane.
I loved it the first time I heard it. I don't know what all of you expect out of it. It's a mixture of Funk, Rock, Jazz, Psychedelic with a lot of style & humor that create a unique atmosphere. Instead of thinking of how sloppy and weird it sounds, I feel like I'm playing in their band, because it sounds very natural. It sounds like little kids are messing around with instruments, kinda like when I hear The Band, because they make me think of a grown up version of The Little Rascals since they switch instruments like little kids would & add unique textures & timing just for fun. Now I understand why The Shaggs "Philosophy of the World" is one of Frank Zappa's favorite albums. One time I read someone's review saying that Trout Mask Replica is misunderstood because it has to do with the lifestyle of hobos. I won't say that it's true, but the way that I grew up around certain streets, I'll say that maybe it sounds familiar to me in that way. Anyways, most of you on this site don't listen to jazz, not that you have to, but makes me wonder how much you limit yourselves and for what reasons.
I have a different theory about the critics apparent love for Captain Beefheart. I suspect that it is genuine. A big part of how we experience and appreciate different music depends on context and our expectations. Almost all music is written according to a loose system of “rules” (meaning that certain patterns of scales/chords tend to be used together). Different genres and cultures have different “rules,” but the rules are there – and they are an essential part of musical composition.
As soon as we begin hearing music as babies our brain starts making sense out of the rules and creating expectations about the patterns we expect to hear. The more music we listen to, the more familiar we become with the “rules” and variations on those rules. This is the context in which we hear music and it is slightly different for every person. The magic to many songs is the manner in which they either follow or diverge from our expectations based on the “rules.”
As we become more familiar with a particular style of music (i.e., as our brain learns more of the rules and variations) we become more comfortable with what the music is doing and we long for more complex variations in order to keep it interesting. Take jazz, for instance. Most casual music fans don’t start right out with “Out To Lunch” by Eric Dolphy. To a new fan of jazz, it would probably sound like “noise.” There are rules and variations involved, but they are less accessible because they assume a complex understanding of the genre. A new fan would probably prefer something more melodic, like “Take Five” by Dave Brubeck. When the burgeoning jazz fans processes Brubeck and Miles Davis, he might move on to Monk and Mingus. Before long, Dolphy would sound like music and the melodic stuff would sound boring. I think the same process happens with all music. That’s why our tastes change over time.
When I worked in record stores I noticed a certain affliction suffered by many of the record store “lifers” (people who had put MAJOR hours into listening to music). A lot of these folks couldn’t stomach anything other than this kind of avant-garde “noise” that to me sounded like a bunch of random squeeks and skronks. But to them it was music, and everything else sounded plain and boring. If I didn’t switch careers it probably would have happened to me too.
I suspect that many music critics suffer from the same malady. If all they do is listen to pop music day after day after day after day, anything different and unexpected sounds good. Trout Mask Replica is certainly very different sounding--and, hence, not very accessible to pop music fans. But I would guess that it is much more accessible to professional music critics who, like the record store lifers, listen to new music all day long every day and have already burned themselves out on most of the simple stuff.
"Trout Mask Replica" is the first and last Captain Beefheard album I ever bought. It was about 17 years ago when I was a college freshman and was exploring all kinds of music that was new to me at the time.
It's the only album ever to have a strong negative physical effect on me. I actually felt sick to my stomach listening to the album. I made it all the way through, and when it was finished I felt better. Now I have to respect the album for causing such a strong reaction in me, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.
This was back when they used to sell CD's here in the U.S. in long cardboard boxes half the size of vinyl albums. I put the CD case back in the box, glued the top of the box shut, went to the video store where I worked at the time, used the shrink wrap machine to put plastic wrapping back on the box, and then took it back to the store with my receipt and exchanged it for "The Magical Mystery Tour."
P.S. The first song, "Frownland," was the only one I kinda liked.
Jorgito, I understand that people do like it. I just am saying that a lot of the people who give it acclaim don't like the album and probably haven't even listened to it more than five times.
I've heard the whole "kids playing instruments/purity" argument before about Beefheart and a few other bands like them. That's a reason to label a band or album as genius? If I wanted to hear kids fiddling around with instruments I would have been an elementary music teacher.
I really do understand what this record means to a lot of people. I actually own the album just to go back to once in awhile which I think I'll do sometime this week. One of these years it might actually grow on me. I don't think so though because I really don't like blues at all. Jazz is fine.
But, anyway I wasn't trying to make the point that the album is horrid. I just think that has been given obligatory placement on a lot of critics lists even though they don't like the album at all. Record store lifer, critic or whatever, I have a real tough time believing that Trout Mask Replica is actually the 54th best album of all-time.
Loophole I think you're onto something but I don't think ridiculous noise is where we're all headed. I prefer music that appeals on ALL levels, like Elvis Costello, Led Zeppelin, Bob Dylan or the Beatles. There's still so much substance and subtlety in that music to keep me listening for years to come. I still have 'difficult' albums that I listen to (at this point mainly for educational value) but I prefer an album that is able to be both complex and simple simultaneously. Of course if one day you see me staring hypnotized by a construction crew you'll know I've changed my mind.
I like some of Beefheart's other stuff. Not desert island material in any way, but still: Some songs on "Safe as Milk" and "Strictly Personal" strike me as 1st class raw delta blues with a bit of the added controlled weirdness that Radiohead or the Beatles might add to a straightforward tune.
I guess the praise for "Trout" from professional critics is historicaly determined: It was new, groundbreaking, innovative, influential, what-not. If the same album came out today, they might judge it differently.
I guess this goes for a lot of things: Citizen Kane may be the best movie ever made (I personally have no idea), but somebody who hasn't been a film freak for a long time will definitely not be able to discover this by himself; it takes a perspective entirely diferent from just asking yourself "Do I like this new album?".
(Dunno if that last paragraph made any sense ...)
This discussion really makes me want to listen to the album, that I don't know.
heard CB was an influence on Tom Waits (one of my favorite singers).
Anyway, this is the AMG review on that album
http://wm11.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:acfqxqr5ld0e
For the record, Trout Mask is about #50 or so in my personal all-time list. Yet it’s definitely one of those albums I don’t just pop in and listen to all the time. It’s not even that nice as background listening while you’re doing stuff around the house. It demands attention and challenges you to appreciate it, and those kind of albums mix in very well with more albums that are listenable on a regular basis. It’s a sprawling work and gallery of boundary-pushing music expression that you really only have to listen to all the way once. However, if you hate the album as a whole, I would at least suggest putting Ella Guru, Moonlight on Vermont, and Veteran’s Day Poppy on your playlists. They are great stand alone songs that represent Trout Mask well, and if you only listened to those songs and nothing else, I wouldn’t hold it against you.
I think what intrigued me about Trout was, first and foremost, the Frank Zappa connection. In a very thick book analyzing Zappa’s works called the Negative Dialectics of Poodle Play by Ben Watson, there was a little bit of a sidetrack discussion of Trout, which Frank Zappa produced. I don’t have the book handy, but the author said something along the lines that Trout was so incredible because there was no previous context of musical style to compare it to. The author even said that not even Beefheart’s previous work serves as a precedent to approach Trout Mask Replica. That’s a very music-critic type thing to say, but I’m sure that’s why its acclaimed and why a lot of critics love it while some regular music listeners might find it horrid. It think it challenges what my perception of music is and is one of those albums in my collection that represent more of art as musical expression than the timeless melodies, emotional power, and unique instrumentation that are part of a good amount of my other favorite records.
i'm putting back the subject on the carpet (like we say in French) because I'm listening to Trout Mask Replica for the first time.
What makes it so hard to hear through is that it's 28 tracks long.
28 experimental tracks is a bit too long.
But there are good things in this album.
- The guy seems really funny and totally crazy
- The way he uses (very well) traditional material (blues, folk, jazz, rock) to make something radically new is amazing
- it's a big influence on Tom Waits (the Island albums)and I love Tom Waits (i'm not sure the majority here does too, though)
this use of dissonant horns comes from jazz and was beautifully used by Robert Wyatt
I think this guy really brought new things
But listening to his album is like eating a plate of peppers.
Peppers are good when added in small quantity to some food
But you wouldn't eat the whole jar
Even Tom Waits in his weirdest moments is Bryan Adams compared to Captain Beefheart
This said there are really good moments : I love China Pig blues, I think this is one of the best attempts at playing John Lee Hooker style
I love the funny spoken parts
"Trout mask replica" is according to me the second worst album of all time after Yoko Ono's "Plastic ono band".
Here's what I wrote about these two pieces of crap on RYM :
- Captain Bullshit & his shitty band : "Definitely the most overrated album of all-time.
It's easy to make some shit and call it "Art".
Sorry, it's not music. Just noise.
Rock critics should stop mistaking people for blockheads with this."
- Yoko the ugly witch : "Three years ago, I bought this album by mistake, confusing it with the John Lennon album _Plastic Ono Band_.
This incident has made me realize that what I held in my hand was nothing else but the worst album I've ever heard, the biggest shit ever composed.
Thank you Yoko for this."
You'll understand easily that experimental shits (I can hardly say the word "music") is not my cup of tea.
It's been a while since I posted this topic, and after some insightful posts I decided in September to embark on my so-called 'project Cappy B'. It basically involved listening to a lot of different kinds of jazz and music I considered "noise" before. I do think quite a few of them are still noise, and I dislike a few of them even more, but yesterday I felt I had arrived at the end of project Cappy B. Mainly because venturing further into the realm of noise would have driven me crazy and because it's all been a huge (but fun) waste of time. So anyway, it was time to listen to "Trout Mask Replica". And to my considerable surprise, I actually completed the entire album and I think I can now see it's acclaim. The man completely disregarded anything 'normal', didn't go for any fame, any money (surely this record won't sell a whole lot), but just set out to create a peace of art that would stand the test of time. And I think, as a whole, he has succeeded. Although there's still a few songs I consider "noise", there are a few really good tracks on this album, so I think I'll be listening to "Safe As Milk" next.
A squid eating dough in a polyethylene bag is fast 'n bulbous. Got me?
I'm not sure why that ended up in between all the other posts, but here it is again, this time at the bottom:
It's been a while since I posted this topic, and after some insightful posts I decided in September to embark on my so-called 'project Cappy B'. It basically involved listening to a lot of different kinds of jazz and music I considered "noise" before. I do think quite a few of them are still noise, and I dislike a few of them even more, but yesterday I felt I had arrived at the end of project Cappy B. Mainly because venturing further into the realm of noise would have driven me crazy and because it's all been a huge (but fun) waste of time. So anyway, it was time to listen to "Trout Mask Replica". And to my considerable surprise, I actually completed the entire album and I think I can now see it's acclaim. The man completely disregarded anything 'normal', didn't go for any fame, any money (surely this record won't sell a whole lot), but just set out to create a peace of art that would stand the test of time. And I think, as a whole, he has succeeded. Although there's still a few songs I consider "noise", there are a few really good tracks on this album, so I think I'll be listening to "Safe As Milk" next.
A squid eating dough in a polyethylene bag is fast 'n bulbous. Got me?
So, have you gotten to Safe as Milk yet? Now, that's a good album!
No, not yet. Just wondering, how is it compared to "Trout Mask Replica"? Because the fact that I can see its acclaim doesn't mean I really like that album. Not yet anyway.
safe as milk is awesome
and i can't stand trout mask pooplica
Same here. Safe is pretty safe.
My father just walked in while I was listening to "Safe As Milk" and sarcastically said "Interesting music..". Wonder what he'll think of "Trout Mask Replica". I really like it so far though.