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Another Poll?

Hmmm just wondering if some day there should be another poll in here of top albums and songs of all time - I mean,there was that one back in 2005,but most of the people who voted there were different to the people who are in this forum now - and I've never seen most people here's favourite song or album lists...

Re: Another Poll?

I agree.

Re: Another Poll?

I remember that I just missed getting my albums and songs in after I first found the site. It inspired me to put a top 100 albums list together on rate your music.

But I think it takes a lot of work to compile all those lists, and we have a lot of other list stuff going on (90s polls, bracketology). If someone calls for another poll, I'll be happy to contribute though. I haven't put a 100 songs list together yet.

Re: Another Poll?

I find making lists very, very hard.. next to impossible. I probably can't even make a top 10 songs, let alone a top 10 albums.

Re: Another Poll?

I suggest that instead of doing it right now, we should PLAN this, so everybody has time to make their lists
If we do that in 3 to 6 months, I agree
Why not posting our lists every year at the end of the year ?

Re: Another Poll?

I'm with nicolas. I've already got a rough draft of a 100-albums list, but I'd like to tinker with it, and a song list is even more daunting.

What kind of time frame are we talking about here?

Re: Another Poll?

Honestly, I would rather make a Top 20 than a Top 100. The thought of trying to rank 100 albums or songs is a bit too intimidating. Would collecting Top 20's cast a wide enough net to result in a meaningful compilation? Or would everyone have 20 different choices?

Timing wise, we could start after the end of Bracketology.

Re: Another Poll?

Btw, where's Sonofsamiam??

Re: Another Poll?

Yeah I agree - I can probably name a top 100 albums or songs but to rank them? THAT'S hard. Well I'd like to do this at some stage but I don't think I'd be putting my hand up to organize and tabulate the results - that's a daunting thought...

Re: Another Poll?

The only hard thing for me is deciding if I'm gonna pick my favorites or what I think are the best.

Re: Another Poll?

Great idea, Midaso.
I prefer top 100 (or even 200) songs over albums, songs take less time.
But I agree it will take some months to make a serious list. End of the year?

Re: Another Poll?

Sounds like a good idea.

I may end up regretting this, but I'll volunteer to keep track of the lists and tabulate results (unless of course, someone's dying to have the job, in which case, have at 'er). If not, I'm up for it. I might be an Arts major, but I have a soft spot for statistics and this is a project that I could really sink my teeth into.

Regardless of who spearheads this project, I vote for a post-Bracketology commencement. But that doesn't mean we can't discuss rules and logistics until then, right?

Re: Another Poll?

Yeah post-bracketology sounds good which will probably be around new year right?
And I've got no objection to Anthony doing the results

Re: Another Poll?

Yup--barring unforeseen difficulties, bracketology will be over by the end of December.

Re: Another Poll?

January's a good time
We could do it every year, because those lists keep changing

Re: Another Poll?

I was wondering, to make this a little easier, if anyone has, knows where to find, or can make, a little program that continually shows 2 items (songs in this case) of which you have to choose your favorite. After a while this should result in a pretty decent list, which could be edited a little if necessary.

I know this would definitely make it easier for me. I'd just go through my songs and enter every song I like, and then put them all in the program and start choosing for an hour or two.

I hope that made sense.

Re: Another Poll?

"I was wondering, to make this a little easier, if anyone has, knows where to find, or can make, a little program that continually shows 2 items (songs in this case) of which you have to choose your favorite. After a while this should result in a pretty decent list, which could be edited a little if necessary."

That's a great idea. Anyone with some coding know-how that could put together a program like that?

Here's an example of what you are talking about web based...

http://baseball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/b1/7464/playerranker

Re: Another Poll?

I'm up for it! I know my lists have changed since the last poll we ran. I'd also be happy to help tabulating. Anthony, maybe we can split the duties- one can do albums and the other songs?

Re: Another Poll?

Sounds good to me Moonbeam.

Re: Another Poll?

It's a deal! Which do you want, albums or songs?

Re: Another Poll?

Well, I guess since I'm more of an albums kind of guy, I wouldn't mind doing that part of it, if that's ok? But if you had your heart set on albums, then I can definitely tabulate the song stats. I'm fine with either.

I was thinking that maybe we could keep track of everything on a Google spreadsheet - one that we would both have access to. But Excel works just as well too.

Thoughts?

Re: Another Poll?

I've never seen a spreadsheet function of Google before, but I'm willing to learn! Excel works too. I'm happy to do the songs list.

Re: Another Poll?

I've been working on that script, failed miserably and have now asked someone else to make one. He's gonna make a script on IRC if it all works out. I'll let you guys know if/when it's ready and how it'll work.

Re: Another Poll?

Thanks Neoptolemos, as soon as you mentioned it I got really excited about the idea. It would really help me to rank my song list.

Re: Another Poll?

Right now I've got something that basically does this:

You make a .txt file with songs, you mail it to me, I put it in the mIRC folder, you join my channel on IRC and start choosing. Assume you get a choice between song #12 and #48 on your list, if you say #12 is better nothing will change, if you say #48 is better, it'll switch both songs. After a while this should make a list.

Problem is though, this highly ineffective, because it does not take previous relations into account. Assume you rated that #48 as lower than #18, and you rate #48 higher than #12, it would be ideal if it were to place the song at #19. I can't seem to figure out how to do this though.

So anyway, it does work, but it required quite a lot of time to be put into it, and in the end you'll end up with a list that is decent but not perfect. Ah well, better than nothing I guess.

If you're interested, join my channel on irc.utonet.org (server with little to no spam protection). The channel is #AM - I'll be there so you can send me your list.

You can download an IRC client at www.mirc.com, and join the channel by typing '/server irc.utonet.org -j #AM'

Re: Another Poll?

Oh, one more thing, the script requires the songs in the text file to all be on a different line.

I.e.:
Arist 1 - Song 1
Artist 2 - Song 1
Artist 3 - Song 1
Artist 2 - Song 2
Artist 2 - Song 3

etc.

Re: Another Poll?

It works for albums too obviously.

Re: Another Poll?

Took quite a while, but with some help of my script, I think I've completed a top 100 songs. It works pretty nicely. Albums I don't get past a top 12 though.

Re: Another Poll?

Oh, what's probably handy is my email to send the lists. It's stephan at neoptolemos dot com

Re: Another Poll?

all right, guys, there are a few questions i'd like to ask about the albums lists that we'll have to decide

1- Will it be possible to include classical music ?
2- Will it be possible to include cds made out of a limited number of sessions of pre 1950 artists going over 1 or 2 years but were'nt released as albums.
I'm thinking of the Robert Johnson sessions that go over a course of 2 years (1936-37), and a couple of other blues records ? Is this exception acceptable ?


About pre-1960 material, will albums consisting of sessions but that weren't released as an album (just because albums didn't exist or were very rare) be accepted ? I'm talking about things like the complete Robert JOhnson sessions, or blues/country/jazz albums ?
there is also an album called "

Re: Another Poll?

I wasn't around for the last AM album poll, nicolas, but my thinking is that anything goes - if you want to put a classical album on your list, have at 'er.

As for compilations, just looking at my list, I have two (the complete recordings of Robert Johnson being one of them.) I don't see any problem with these types of albums either.

Just my thoughts anyway.

Re: Another Poll?

i wasn't there either
(sorry about my last post just forgot to erase the last sentence)
About compilations, I think best of albums or greatest hits have to be counted out.
But sessions by pre-album era artists could be accepted.
Now what about various artists compilations (like Nugget's) ?
I think, to my regret that they also have to be excluded because there would be no limits
But it's my opinion

Re: Another Poll?

In the previous poll compilations were sometimes posted but not counted towards the rankings. I think we should stick to that, because if we can include compilations why not include greatest hits? They're sort of compilations as well.

Re: Another Poll?

Hi guys, I've only just found this site, and I really wish I'd found it ages ago. I share a passion for great music like you all clearly do, so I hope it's ok if I start posting here. I'd be well up for posting a top albums and songs list too.

Re: Another Poll?

Yeah I think things like Robert Johnson sessions should be able to be included,but not greatest hits compilations like Rolling Stones - Forty Licks. But there are some artists where a compilation is their best known and greatest album like the Buzzcocks - Singles Going Steady but I wonder whether something like that or New Order - Substance should be included because it's made of non-album singles isn't it?

Re: Another Poll?

Then we're sticking strictly to albums then. And by "album", I mean:

noun
1. one or more recordings issued together; originally released on 12-inch phonograph records (usually with attractive record covers) and later on cassette audiotape and compact disc

Where do we stand on EPs?

Re: Another Poll?

This is what I'm hearing:

Allowed:
- pre-album era artists compilations
- b-sides compilations

Not-Allowed:
- greatest hits from established album artists

Correct? Suggestions?

Re: Another Poll?

sounds great

Re: Another Poll?

Or : compilations of material that haven't been released previously on an album
Easy way to check that (not 100% bout good enough) : go to AMG

Re: Another Poll?

Just chiming in here. I agree with the rhetoric set in place by Anthony for the albums list. My question is how many albums/songs should be allowed in each list. Should we make an acceptable range instead of a fixed number?

Re: Another Poll?

And how would they be ranked? Will it be something like Henrik with the 50, 40, 35, etc. (in this case higher points obviously) or just 200 points for #1 (assuming a maximum of lists of 200 songs).

I'd say anything between 50 and 200 is eligible.. maybe 100 and 200, but 50 might make it a little more accessible.

Re: Another Poll?

Good question. What is the weighting for the top 100 albums? Henrik’s system of 50, 40, 35, etc. only goes to 20. Does that mean that each album after 20 is awarded only a single point?

If I’m going to be the one compiling the album statistics, it would be a good thing to know.

Thoughts?

Re: Another Poll?

2 solutions : the simplest is to give 100 pts to the first, 99 to the second, etc...
I don't think it's good, i think Henrik's method of giving a bonus to the n first songs is better.
In our 1990's polls, he emphasized the top 10, giving more points to the 10 first;
If we use this method we have to decide first the number of songs that will be weighted more heavily.
Will it be the top 10 like Henrik did, the top 20, the top 25 ?
I think the top 20 (or even 15 but never more than 20) would be a good choice.
In that case, number 100 gets 1 point, number 99 two, etc; so number 21 gets 80 and then we invent a new scale, and we increase the intervals progressivly: e;g. 20 : 81
19 :83
18 :85
17 : 90
16 : 95
15 : 100
14 : 105
13 : 110
12 : 125
11 : 140
10 : 150
9 : 160
8 : 170
7 : 190
6 : 200
5 : 220
4 : 250
3 : 300
2 : 350
1 : 450
(just an example)
Hope I made myself clear.
But first of all : wil a top 100 will be sufficient ?
let's not forget that we are music geeks, and that 100 albums is peanuts for us..
there'll be alot of good stuff left
But on the other hand, 100 is already a lot of work for the compilator (Anthony) so maybe we shouldn't overload his boat, like we say in French
maybe we should ask our favorite statistician's advice ?

Re: Another Poll?

my scale is a little bit twisted by nb 12 but ot's an example

Re: Another Poll?

When I am ranking things, I think it is fairly easy to make distinctions between 1,2,3, etc., but a lot harder to do so between 81, 82, 83.

A good way to get a lot of albums included, but to make it easier for the compilers and the participants, would be to give bonus points for the top 10 albums, and then have the points awarded in groups of 10 or 20 albums after that.

Example:

1 = 25 points
2 = 24 points
3 = 23 points
4 = 22 points
5 = 21 points
6 = 20 points
7 = 19 points
8 = 18 points
9 = 17 points
10 = 16 points
11-19 = 15 points
20-29 = 14 points
30-39 = 13 points
40-49 = 12 points
50-75 = 11 points
75-100 = 10 points

Re: Another Poll?

Loophole – I really like your idea, but I gave it a tweak. How’s this?

1 = 100 points
2 = 95
3 = 90
4 = 88
5 = 85

6 = 80
7 = 77
8 = 73
9 = 69
10 = 65

11 = 60
12 = 58
13 = 56
14 = 54
15 = 52
16 = 50
17 = 48
18 = 46
19 = 44
20 = 42

21 = 40
22 = 39
23 = 38
24 = 37
25 = 36

26-30 = 35
30-39 = 30
40-49 = 25
50-59 = 20
60-69 = 15
70-79 = 10
80-89 = 5
90-100 = 1


A higher weighting given to the top 5 albums, and incrementally decreased until the 25th place. After 25, a five-point decrease for each subsequent group of 10.

How does this look to everyone?

Re: Another Poll?

But what about people posting lists of up to 200, surely you can't rate #90 as high as #200. Maybe our very own statistician has an idea?

Re: Another Poll?

I might just be spitballing here, but isn’t 200 a little... excessive? Maybe not for songs, but for the albums list, I think 100 is a good number to stick to.

And I’m not saying this because of the extra work that it would necessitate (which wouldn’t be significantly greater, since Excel would be doing the bulk of the calculating). My rationale here is that although I’m sure all of us could throw together a list of 200 albums, let’s be honest, how much “filler” would start to enter the picture at that point? Or let me put it to you this way, Neo, do you really care what this forum’s 200th favorite album is?

Re: Another Poll?

Not really, no. Songs is a little more interesting, since I keep finding more songs I want to put in my top 100 but there's just no place. Albums I think 100 is almost too much already.

Re: Another Poll?

Yes,for me 100 albums is more than enough - I don't know how many albums I've heard but probably no more than 400. Many of them,haven't heard enough to judge properly

Re: Another Poll?

ok for 100
It's symbolic
And I agree with the scale ; good idea !

Re: Another Poll?

Anyway for those who think 100 isn't enough, every one can give a longer list but only the first 100 albums will get points

Re: Another Poll?

"Or let me put it to you this way, Neo, do you really care what this forum’s 200th favorite album is?"

I just realised we will in fact probably find out, because chances are slim we'll all have the same 100 songs/albums in our list. Which leads me to the next question, how many songs/albums will be listed in the end?

Re: Another Poll?

Some comments from the statistician...

I like Anthony's weighting system, there were just some oddities I think, such as the distance between #10-#11 was 2.5 times greater than the distance between #3-#4. I have just slightly adjusted the numbers below.

1 = 100 points
2 = 95
3 = 90
4 = 85
5 = 80
6 = 75

7 = 72
8 = 69
9 = 66
10 = 63

11 = 60
12 = 58
13 = 56
14 = 54
15 = 52
16 = 50
17 = 48
18 = 46
19 = 44
20 = 42

21-30 = 40
30-39 = 35
40-49 = 30
50-59 = 25
60-69 = 20
70-79 = 15
80-89 = 10
90-100 = 5

I think a skewed score pattern like this is good because
a) The total results will be more "edgy", and more interesting IMO.
b) The contribution will not be dramatically different between those who present top 100 lists and those who participate with shorter lists. BTW, I think there should be a lower limit of number of albums included. 50?

I agree top 100 is enough. It's a very hard job to enter all the titles into a spreadsheet. But everyone should feel encouraged to post longer lists if they want to.

If there's a need for a more simplified scoring system, we could perhaps use

1 = 100 points
2 = 95
3 = 90
4 = 85
5 = 80

6-10 = 70
11-15 = 60
16-20 = 50

21-30 = 40
30-39 = 35
40-49 = 30
50-59 = 25
60-69 = 20
70-79 = 15
80-89 = 10
90-100 = 5

However, this would probably result in more ties in the end.

Re: Another Poll?

As the forum's other statistician, I like Henrik's scoring system. I'm trying to envision a plan to incorporate lists of size 50 to 200 so that each has the same number of points, but I'm torn in my thought processes. Should a list of 50 albums/songs count as much as one with 200? On the one hand, everyone would contribute the same number of points to the aggregate list. On the other hand, such a system would penalize those with lengthier lists by diminishing the point totals of their individual selections. I was even thinking of a Pazz 'n Jop-style scoring system of point allocation, but that would probably be WAY too complicated.

In any case, I've got my top 300 albums list ready to go...

Re: Another Poll?

Thanks Henrik.

I prefer the first scoring system (ie. the "non-simplified" one), simply because it distinguishes picks ranked 1 through 20, which is a good thing. And if using it will result in less ties, then that's a bonus.

So, if I'm understanding correctly, participants are welcome to submit lists with as many as 200 albums, but only the first 100 will be calculated into the overall data? And the minimum requirement for a submission is 50.

Re: Another Poll?

Moonbeam, I don't think a shorter list should contribute as much as a longer list, if you mean that #1 from a short list should get more points than #1 in a longer list. If there should be any difference at all I think it should be in the other direction (fewer points to #1 on a shorter list). But things would probably become too messy.

Correction from above...
21-30 = 40
31-40 = 35
41-50 = 30
51-60 = 25
61-70 = 20
71-80 = 15
81-90 = 10
91-100 = 5

Re: Another Poll?

As Anthony, I also prefer the first, "non-simplified" scoring system. But if we manage the lists in Excel anyway, we could also use a formula like:

Score = 200 / ( Position + 1 )

(yes, I admit, me mathematician too )

This means, position 1 gets 100 points, position 2 gets 66,7 points, position 3 50 points, etc.

And ... this formula works for any list length! BTW, I do agree with you, Henrik, to set a lower limit for the list length, like e.g. 50.

Does this makes sense, or is it just slightly too complex?

Re: Another Poll?

I like Henrik's 'complicated' version, except I'd like to see it a little more complicated even. For 50 upwards I don't really care that 50 or 60 gets the same amount of points, but I really do prefer 21 over 30.. so if we could somehow get different points up to song/album 50 or something? It won't be more work for Moonbeam and Anthony, except for slightly altering the formulas in Excel.

Re: Another Poll?

OK, I already see one major disadvantage to my formula: Position 1 gets double the points as position 3, that's perhaps a bit too drastical.

In general, my score proposal would be:

Score = 100 * x / ( Position + x )

where x=1 in my previous post, but we could set the value higher, like e.g. 10?

Re: Another Poll?

oops, pressed Post message too quickly. The formula should be:

Score = 100 * ( 1 + x ) / ( Position + x )

Re: Another Poll?

How about this:

1 = 200 points
2 = 190
3 = 180
4 = 170
5 = 160
6 = 150
7 = 145
8 = 140
9 = 135
10 = 130

11 = 125
12 = 120
13 = 115
14 = 110
15 = 105
16 = 100
17 = 95
18 = 90
19 = 85
20 = 80

21 = 75
22 = 70
23 = 65
24 = 60
25 = 55

26-30 = 50
31-35 = 45
36-40 = 40
41-45 = 35
46-50 = 30
51-60 = 25
61-70 = 20
71-80 = 15
81-90 = 10
91-100 = 5

Re: Another Poll?

DrDre - I really like your idea. I crunched the numbers, and this is what my Commodore 64 spit out:

1 …… 100.00
2 …… 91.67
3 …… 84.62
4 …… 78.57
5 …… 73.33
6 …… 68.75
7 …… 64.71
8 …… 61.11
9 …… 57.89
10 …… 55.00
11 …… 52.38
12 …… 50.00
13 …… 47.83
14 …… 45.83
15 …… 44.00
16 …… 42.31
17 …… 40.74
18 …… 39.29
19 …… 37.93
20 …… 36.67
21 …… 35.48
22 …… 34.38
23 …… 33.33
24 …… 32.35
25 …… 31.43
26 …… 30.56
27 …… 29.73
28 …… 28.95
29 …… 28.21
30 …… 27.50
31 …… 26.83
32 …… 26.19
33 …… 25.58
34 …… 25.00
35 …… 24.44
36 …… 23.91
37 …… 23.40
38 …… 22.92
39 …… 22.45
40 …… 22.00
41 …… 21.57
42 …… 21.15
43 …… 20.75
44 …… 20.37
45 …… 20.00
46 …… 19.64
47 …… 19.30
48 …… 18.97
49 …… 18.64
50 …… 18.33
51 …… 18.03
52 …… 17.74
53 …… 17.46
54 …… 17.19
55 …… 16.92
56 …… 16.67
57 …… 16.42
58 …… 16.18
59 …… 15.94
60 …… 15.71
61 …… 15.49
62 …… 15.28
63 …… 15.07
64 …… 14.86
65 …… 14.67
66 …… 14.47
67 …… 14.29
68 …… 14.10
69 …… 13.92
70 …… 13.75
71 …… 13.58
72 …… 13.41
73 …… 13.25
74 …… 13.10
75 …… 12.94
76 …… 12.79
77 …… 12.64
78 …… 12.50
79 …… 12.36
80 …… 12.22
81 …… 12.09
82 …… 11.96
83 …… 11.83
84 …… 11.70
85 …… 11.58
86 …… 11.46
87 …… 11.34
88 …… 11.22
89 …… 11.11
90 …… 11.00
91 …… 10.89
92 …… 10.78
93 …… 10.68
94 …… 10.58
95 …… 10.48
96 …… 10.38
97 …… 10.28
98 …… 10.19
99 …… 10.09
100 …… 10.00

Re: Another Poll?

I like DrDre's suggestion to use a formula. What might look a bit complicated is really the most handy way to add the data, as you can then just enter the positions from 1 to 100 and your well-crafted Excel formula will do all the rest...!

Re: Another Poll?

Thanks, Anthony and Henrik.

Where would we be without the good old C-64?

And as already said, the formula works for any length of the list ...

Good night.

Re: Another Poll?

It shouldn't take ten #90s to make up one #1.
Formula should be used, but from 100 to 25 or 40.

Re: Another Poll?

I'm not so sure, Jorgito. In most other suggested score distributions each album in the #90's get 5 points, so together they only make half the score for #1.

IMO, it is good to have a bit of skewedness in the distribution. If you don't have that, the occurrence of an album in a list becomes more important over its position.

Well, in the end it's all a matter of taste ... each distribution has its pros and cons. It's just about deciding upon one distribution and than stick to that, I guess.

Re: Another Poll?

Jorgito, if you want the scores from 100 to 25 or 40, it is still possible to use the formula (Score=100*(1+x)/(Position+x)).

Just change the value for x from 10 to 32 (to get scores from 100 to 25) or 65 (scores from 100 to 40) respectively.

Re: Another Poll?

Yeah I agree with Dre. I'd rather have the album that's on the list 10 times at #90 be ranked higher than an album that one person gave a #1 to. It probably will contribute to a bland list but just listing everyones top 5 or whatever doesn't give much of a picture of what we collectively like.

Re: Another Poll?

I personally prefer DrDre’s system to all other suggestions (including my own), and since Henrik gave it a thumbs up, that’s all the convincing I need.

Also, I was playing around with different values for x, and it seems that 10 is the one that seems to best split the difference between appropriate values for higher ranked albums (ie. #1 through #10) and values for lower ranked albums. When x=15, the distribution for albums #1 through #10 is a bit more ideal, but it results in the values for albums #90-100 being too high. x=10 is a nice, happy medium.

Re: Another Poll?

I meant to say what John said. Someone's #1 song shouldn't have more value than 10 voters' #90 picks.
I like the formula, but it shouldn't go all the way down to 10. It should be brought up to at least 25.

Re: Another Poll?

All this numbers discussion is finally making me eager to share something I could contribute once the album poll is over.

I came up with an interesting formula for album recommendations shortly before I discovered Henrik's site. I had a small period without a full-time job, so I got creative. I want to share that with you now before I forget how I did it.

Pitchfork was putting out a list of maybe the top 100 albums of the 70s at the time. If you are familiar with their lists they also have a section at the end with an individual critics top list. Well I didn't like how obscure some of their overall album choices were, so I decided to go into the list of individual critics (about 15) and score each of the critics based on how high they ranked albums on my list.

The scoring for critics was based on this formula.

101 [minus] (position on critics list) / 100

X

101 [minus] (position on my personal list)

If some critic's favorite album was your favorite album, that critic would get 100 points. If they put it at 50 they would get awarded 51 points.

This formula obviously is for 100 album lists and in particular albums of the 70s to match up with the Pitchfork list, but it can be adaptable.

Now, with this formula you can get a pretty good ranking of which critics agree with you more.

BUT, I didn't stop there. I decided to do another round of calculations based on what I guess I would call a 'snooty music critic factor'. I love Pitchfork, they exposed to a lot of good stuff, but I felt that a critic who put the most obscure Boredoms record at #1 or filled their 70s top 10 with avant-garde electronic compositions would have tastes a little alienated from me. On the other hand, a pitchfork critic who found himself common enough to throw mainstream but powerful records like downward spiral and siamese onto their top 90s records list deserved a whole lot more credit. And of course, some critic liking your inaccessible, unlistenable-to-anyone-else album as much as you deserves a high consideration when finding new albums to discover. Hopefully you get what I'm saying.

Anyways my formula took the calculations of critics strength from the formula above and created a spectrum of scores from lowest to highest. I then created a median score, halfway between the critic with the lowest score and the critic with the highest score.

I then went back to the individual critics and gave a score to each album on their list I had not heard. I based this score on where the individual critics list laid on this spectrum. Every critic that had a score above the median contributed a positive score to each of their albums. The critic with the strongest agreement with my list got a score of 1.00, while the other critics who had earlier scores above the median got album strength scores reflected in this formula:

Distance from Median / Highest critic agreement score

Each album on these lists was given points based on this:

New median-based score
X
(101 - [album position on critic's list])

Now if a critic that agreed the most with my list ranked something #1, that album would count for 100 points.

Critics with agreement scores below the median penalized album scores with negative points. The elitist music critic that had the least agreement with me gets a median based score of -1.00, while the others got scores based on this formula:

- (Distance from Median / Lowest Agreement Score)

Then you would give albums negative points based on:

New median-based score
X
101-[album's position of critics 100 list]

Add all the scores possible for every album on every critical list and you've got yourself a very customized list of recommendations.

I've never written this method out completely so thanks for the chance.

The problem is this took me a very long time to do my calculations, and when work and grad school started picking up I did find the project set aside. I also am sure there is a way to put all of these calculations into Excel. If you think this formula makes statistical sense, and you know any weird Excel functions, I'd appreciate any advice. I think it would be a blast to try to put your final album lists into this formula and see if it comes with anything interesting based on a pool of like-minded (at least when it comes to list obsession) music critics like ourselves.

Re: Another Poll?

Eligibility? I am struggling to put together a list of albums. The eligibility rules are tricky. If we allow King of the Delta Blues and The Sun Sessions, what about a recent collection of Johnny Cash's Sun tracks? What about Hank Williams' 40 greatest hits? The music was never released on standard albums, but it seems unfair to allow compilations like that. And what about soundtracks, i.e., "The Harder They Come," which is almost a Jimmy Cliff album, but includes tracks from other artists.

One simple solution would be to just copy Henrik's rules (although that would remove Elvis' best record and Robert Johnson).

Re: Another Poll?

How about Buzzcocks Singles Going Steady which somehow finds it's place on almost everybody's top albums lists. Those songs are available on their original albums for the most part and critics rarely include any other singles compilation....I guess those albums just recently became widely available but it's not like the Buzzcocks only put out singles. I have always found it weird how that compilation is given an exception. Essential album, but so is CCR Chronicles or a Smiths Singles comp. You don't see those in anybodys top 100.

Re: Another Poll?

Well I don't know ...
If I proposed to include compilations, it's mainly because ther's a couple of blues albums I'd love to include like R Johnson and Leadbelly, which are sessions albums and not compilatons of scattered singles
That was my first idea : including sessions albums (so maybe the Sun sessions could be part of it too. But if it is impossible to define clearly, we'll have to stick to Henry's rules;
Anyway, before we post, we ought to make some written rules.

Re: Another Poll?

Or maybe just include anything we want to and if the person organizing it deems it ineligible then so be it - it won't be included...

Re: Another Poll?

You guys looking at me? I just offered to compile and calculate the results. :) As far as deciding which albums are or are not eligible, well, that has to be a group effort. Personally, I really don’t care either way.

Re: Another Poll?

I think that compilations of any kind shouldn't be included. What's the problem ? There are thousand billions of good "real studio album" that you can put on your top 100 albums. Forget your compilations or sessions and think about the other good albums you're going to choose. For the last poll in 2005, I really wanted to rank my so beloved "Nuggets" compilations, but Henrik said "No, you can't". It doesn't matter, I'm still alive and I still love music

Re: Another Poll?

Yeah well there's only a couple I would have put on anyway - New Order Substance and Buzzcocks Singles Going Steady

Re: Another Poll?

It's becoming more clear that nailing down a definition of what is and isn't an acceptable album is an exercise in futility. So, with that said, is everybody alright with sticking to the AM rules (ie. no greatest hits, no "best ofs", no compilations, etc.)? I have to agree with Dumbangel - there are so many good albums out there, and as much as it's painful to remove the compilations from our lists, I think it's in our best interests to do so. (Yes, even I'll have to find a few replacements for my list.) Shouldn't be too difficult of a task though.

Next thing on the agenda... the scoring system. I didn't hear many objections to DrDre's formula; I personally think it's the best way to go, and since Henrik ok'd it, hopefully everyone's fine with it.

So, if we can all agree on that much, then all that remains (I think) is to finalize the commencement date and the method of list submission.

I'm not sure how it was done with the previous polls, but in terms of how lists can be submitted, I would like to suggest that lists be sent to me by EMAIL, and not by posting on the forum. I'd prefer this for a few reasons:

1.) Ease of compiling - I'm not too keen on the idea of re-typing lists into Excel, so hopefully everyone can send me an Excel (or equivalent) file. If that's not an option, the list in Word (or within the body of an email) is ok. If that's not possible, send me the list on MS Messenger. Why not via the forum? Well...

2.) To eliminate bias! With endeavors such as this, it's sometimes tempting to look at another's list to see where certain albums are ranked, and then make subsequent "adjustments" to our own lists. (eg. "Oh, they both put Album X in their top 10. Maybe I should put it higher on my list....") I'm not saying this sort of thing would be rampant on this forum, but there's no sense in taking any chances. I'd really like to keep as much integrity in this poll as possible. I'm a psych major, and bias is the enemy!

Since Bracketology will be finished at the end of November (*sniff*), is everybody ok with starting this on December 1, with results to follow shortly after the new year? That leaves a good 30-day window for getting your lists to me. schleuse - if AM Survivor begins roughly around the same time, are you alright with the album poll running quietly in the background?

Re: Another Poll?

i'm sad but I have to admit that the compilation thing was impossible to rgulate. So bye bye my beloved blues recors (any way they wouldn't have maid the top 100, even Robert Johnson)
Personnally I find that dec 1 is a little short, but I don't want to spoil the pleasure
I suggest december 31st and results at the end of january
I make a point to listen to every album before ranking it.
Or if we do that (december 1), we'll post the songs later ?
And I agree about secret vote. Much more democratic.

Re: Another Poll?

Anthony, regarding your suggestions, you got all thumbs up from my side.

The anonymous voting, by sending you the 100 in an Excel file, is very wise. I'm also fine with either start date, since I have my 100 already waiting in stock.

Re: Another Poll?

So the albums are going to be done before the singles poll? Or at the same time?

Re: Another Poll?

Same time I think, but it doesn't really matter to me either, I got them 99% completed.

I'm in doubt whether or not to allow 2006/2007 songs, because there seems a disproportionate amount of them in my list (4 from each year, and the years (even in my opinion) weren't that strong.

Mmm.. I guess I could just include them and possibly remove them say.. next year, when I update my list.

What do you guys think?

Oh, I agree with everything Anthony said!

Re: Another Poll?

I don't understand why the votes should be anonymous ?
I'm not ashamed or guilty to like the albums and songs that I like. And most of us knows more or less each other tastes in music on this forum. For exemple, the author of a list with 7 Prince albums in the top 10 is nobody's but Moonbeam. Same thing for JR with Madonna.

Re: Another Poll?

I assume the lists will be posted (by the compiler) after the lists have been compiled, unless someone has objections against that of course. (That's how it was done last time anyway)

Re: Another Poll?

Dumbangel – my rationale for having lists submitted by email has nothing to do with shame or guilt, and it’s certainly not about anonymity (more on this aspect to follow.)

Perhaps I wasn’t clear enough in my explanation, but my reason for asking everyone to submit their lists by email is to eliminate any potential bias from entering this poll.

bias - n. 1. distortion of a statistical result due to predisposition or prejudice

The fact of the matter is, if lists are submitted via posting on the forum - which can be viewed by everyone - there could be a tendency for some, maybe not you, but SOME to modify their lists in accordance with the tastes of others. Like I attempted to demonstrate in my previous example, I don’t want anyone to rank album X higher in their personal list because they’ve seen it ranked high on lists which have already been posted. I’m not saying that this will necessarily happen, but I don’t want to take the chance. In short, I want the final list to be an untainted reflection of the musical tastes of this forum without any internal bias or influence.

As for anonymity, Neoptolemos is correct - everyone’s list will be available for public viewing on the forum shortly after the results are posted. Hilarity, shock, and tomfoolery will ensue at that point, I’m sure.

Re: Another Poll?

Hi all-

Just checking in. I'm happy to accept your songs lists just as Anthony is collecting the albums lists. Feel free to send me an email (ian_renner@yahoo.com) with your list attached as an Excel (or equivalent) document. A few questions I have are the following:

1. I think it's pretty safe to assume that we are using DrDre's formula. However, did we make a final decision about the value of x? 10 seemed to be the frontrunner, but I haven't seen anything conclusive about this.

2. Since the formula can handle lists of any size, are there any limitations to the size of the lists? I, for one, don't mind getting large lists- even 1000- but I'm open to suggestions.

Re: Another Poll?

I like the idea of 200 songs, but 100 is fine also.

Polling stations (ie. Moonbeam's and Anthony's email) opening December 1?

Re: Another Poll?

1000 Moonbeam? That would make your job real hell - 100 of each sounds good

Re: Another Poll?

I suggest we stick to 100 of each

Re: Another Poll?

First of all, sorry for having introduced the word 'anonymous' and causing the misunderstanding about that. Dumbangel, I hope that Neoptolemos' and Anthony's clarifications resolved that?

Then I am fine with suggestions made in the last posts:
- Formula with x=10 is OK.
- Start date December 1 OK too.
- Since I want to relisten to all albums and songs before voting, a top 100 of each sounds best doable and OK as well to me. But if anybody else wants to submit a longer list, why reject?

Re: Another Poll?

Two suggestions for x:

1. x=20, which gives 17.5 points to album #100
2. x=32, which gives 25 points to album #100

There are no other integers for x (among these values) that give a score for #100 with 0 or 1 decimal, but that's not really important either. We could for example use x=24, which would give 20.16 points to #100.

Somewhere around these numbers seems "optimal" to me.

Re: Another Poll?

I have nothing against people giving longer lists.
Like DrDre I would like to listen to a maximum of records but I think this time I'll probably give a list of 100 which won't be optimal but the best I can.
Now if people want to gpost longer lists, of course I have nothing against that but the question is will the 101st and following will get points ?
personnally I say why not
and you

Re: Another Poll?

Somewhere around 20 points for album number 100 seems good to me.

Re: Another Poll?

i've found what i think is the fairest equation. it doesn't matter though. i think it will be fun to compare these rating systems once all the lists are completed. i'm certainly keen to try that. i think to priority is to get this program where you pick your favorite songs and albums happening. anyways, here's the formula:

score = (100/x)*log(100^x/position)

rank x=2.25 x=2.5 x=2.75
1 100.00 100.00 100.00
2 86.62 87.96 89.05
3 78.79 80.92 82.65
4 73.24 75.92 78.11
5 68.93 72.04 74.58
6 65.42 68.87 71.70
7 62.44 66.20 69.27
8 59.86 63.88 67.16
9 57.59 61.83 65.30
10 55.56 60.00 63.64
11 53.72 58.34 62.13
12 52.04 56.83 60.76
13 50.49 55.44 59.49
14 49.06 54.15 58.32
15 47.73 52.96 57.23
16 46.48 51.84 56.21
17 45.31 50.78 55.26
18 44.21 49.79 54.35
19 43.17 48.85 53.50
20 42.18 47.96 52.69
21 41.23 47.11 51.92
22 40.34 46.30 51.18
23 39.48 45.53 50.48
24 38.66 44.79 49.81
25 37.87 44.08 49.17
26 37.11 43.40 48.55
27 36.38 42.75 47.95
28 35.68 42.11 47.38
29 35.00 41.50 46.82
30 34.35 40.92 46.29
31 33.72 40.35 45.77
32 33.10 39.79 45.27
33 32.51 39.26 44.78
34 31.93 38.74 44.31
35 31.37 38.24 43.85
36 30.83 37.75 43.41
37 30.30 37.27 42.97
38 29.79 36.81 42.55
39 29.29 36.36 42.14
40 28.80 35.92 41.74
41 28.32 35.49 41.35
42 27.86 35.07 40.97
43 27.40 34.66 40.60
44 26.96 34.26 40.24
45 26.52 33.87 39.88
46 26.10 33.49 39.54
47 25.68 33.12 39.20
48 25.28 32.75 38.86
49 24.88 32.39 38.54
50 24.49 32.04 38.22
51 24.11 31.70 37.91
52 23.73 31.36 37.60
53 23.37 31.03 37.30
54 23.00 30.70 37.00
55 22.65 30.39 36.71
56 22.30 30.07 36.43
57 21.96 29.77 36.15
58 21.63 29.46 35.88
59 21.30 29.17 35.61
60 20.97 28.87 35.34
61 20.65 28.59 35.08
62 20.34 28.30 34.82
63 20.03 28.03 34.57
64 19.73 27.75 34.32
65 19.43 27.48 34.08
66 19.13 27.22 33.83
67 18.84 26.96 33.60
68 18.56 26.70 33.36
69 18.27 26.45 33.13
70 18.00 26.20 32.91
71 17.72 25.95 32.68
72 17.45 25.71 32.46
73 17.19 25.47 32.24
74 16.92 25.23 32.03
75 16.66 25.00 31.82
76 16.41 24.77 31.61
77 16.16 24.54 31.40
78 15.91 24.32 31.20
79 15.66 24.09 31.00
80 15.42 23.88 30.80
81 15.18 23.66 30.60
82 14.94 23.45 30.41
83 14.71 23.24 30.22
84 14.48 23.03 30.03
85 14.25 22.82 29.84
86 14.02 22.62 29.65
87 13.80 22.42 29.47
88 13.58 22.22 29.29
89 13.36 22.02 29.11
90 13.14 21.83 28.94
91 12.93 21.64 28.76
92 12.72 21.45 28.59
93 12.51 21.26 28.42
94 12.31 21.07 28.25
95 12.10 20.89 28.08
96 11.90 20.71 27.92
97 11.70 20.53 27.75
98 11.50 20.35 27.59
99 11.31 20.17 27.43
100 11.11 20.00 27.27



keep in mind that when an album is ranked at no#1, it's quite likely to appear highly on other lists as well so it doesn't bother me if two mentions in the top 20 give an album a better score than an album ranked at no#1. with the x=2.5 system, an album ranked at no#1 on one list and no#100 on another will equal two mentions at no#10. that sounds pretty close to what it should be.

Re: Another Poll?

Moeboid, let me be the first to react on your post and say: Excellent! Let's forget about my formula and take your Log-Formula, with x=2.5 preferably.

Re: Another Poll?

btw, shouldn't the formula be:

score = (100/x)*log(100^x/position) - 100

? Or am I doing something wrong ?

Re: Another Poll?

I also agree about Moeboids formula with x=2.5, but I really don't think I'm the one who should decide here.

I had no idea formulas would be discussed this much in the forum! How many statisticians or mathematicians are we?

Re: Another Poll?

Thank you DrDre :)

And you are doing something wrong... but it's my fault. i posted the wrong formula. sorry.

score =(100/2.5)*LOG(10^2.5/position)

that's what it should be. sorry about that

I've given this a bit more thought and the best equation for this will vary from person to person. picking my favorite album may be a very easy decision, or maybe a very difficult one. no matter which equation we choose to use, none will match the *real* difference between the two. but then again, i don't think anyone can rank their favorite albums accurately enough to justify being too pedantic about such things.

Re: Another Poll?

Well, we've been pedantic enough already, so why not compare the two “Henrik-approved” scales?

DrDre’s formula, using X=20:

1 100.00
2 95.45
3 91.30
4 87.50
5 84.00
6 80.77
7 77.78
8 75.00
9 72.41
10 70.00
.
.
.
91 18.92
92 18.75
93 18.58
94 18.42
95 18.26
96 18.10
97 17.95
98 17.80
99 17.65
100 17.50


Now, Moeboid’s formula, using X=2.5:

1 100.00
2 87.96
3 80.92
4 75.92
5 72.04
6 68.87
7 66.20
8 63.88
9 61.83
10 60.00
.
.
.
91 21.64
92 21.45
93 21.26
94 21.07
95 20.89
96 20.71
97 20.53
98 20.35
99 20.17
100 20.00


Both are really great, and well thought out. I personally prefer DrDre's formula, for a couple of reasons:

1. The discrepancy between albums ranked #1 and #2 is 4.55, compared with 12.04. Looking at my personal list, If I try to quantify my preference for the album ranked #1 over the album ranked #2, the difference would be closer to 4 or 5 than 12.
2. Albums ranked #10 are worth 70, compared to 60. Seems about right (to me anyway.)
3. Albums ranked #100 on Moeboid's scale are worth one fifth of the point value of the album ranked #1, which seems a bit high (not that 17.50 is much different, mind you.)

We're probably boring the shit out of most people with all of this nerdy stats talk. But I think it's important to find a scale that everyone's happy with.

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