Go to the NEW FORUM
50. Emperor X- Central Hug/Friendarmy/Fractaldune
49. Sharon Jones & the Dap-Kings- Naturally
48. The Constantines- Tournament of Hearts
47. Silver Jews- The Tanglewood Numbers
46. We Are Wolves- Non Stop Je Te Plie en Deux
45. Ladytron- Witching Hour
44. Keith Fullerton Whitman- Multiples
43. Field Music- Field Music
42. The Russian Futurists- Our Sickness
41. Caribous- The Milk of Human Kindness
40. Stephen Malkmus- Face the Truth
39. Ryan Adams & the Cardinals- Cold Roses
38. The Books- Lost & Safe
37. Broken Social Scene- Broken Social Scene
36. Kanye West- Late Registration
35. TTC- Batards Sensibles
34. The White Stripes- Get Behind Me Satan
33. Sigur Rós- Takk
32. Super Furry Animals- Love Kraft
31. Tiger Bear Wolf- Tiger Bear Wolf
30. Joggers- With a Cape and a Cane
29. Bonnie "Prince" Billy & Matt Sweeney- Superwolf
28. Okkervil River- Black Sheep Boy
27. Devin Davis- Lonely People of the World, Unite!
26. Deerhoof- The Runners Four
25. Jamie Lidell- Multiply
24. Shugo Tokumaru- L.S.T.
23. Bright Eyes- I'm Wide Awake, It's Morning
22. Decemberists- Picaresque
21. Angels of Light & Akron/Family- Akron/Family & Angels of Light
20. David Thomas Broughton- The Complete Guide to Insufficiency
19. Bloc Party- Silent Alarm
18. Broadcast- Tender Buttons
17. M.I.A.- Arular
16. Eluvium- Talking Through the Trees
15. Mountain Goats- The Sunset Tree
14. Antony & the Johnsons- I Am a Bird Now
13. The National- Alligator
12. Animal Collective- Feels
11. My Morning Jacket- Z
10. Akron/Family- Akron/Family
9. New Pornographers- Twin Cinema
8. DJ Muggs vs. GZA- Grandmasters
7. Spoon- Gimme Fiction
6. Andrew Bird- The Mysterious Production of Eggs
5. Clap Your Hands Say Yeah!- Clap Your Hands Say Yeah!
4. Edan- Beauty & the Beat
3. Sleater-Kinney- The Woods
2. Sufjan Stevens- Illionise
1. Wolf Parade- Apologies to the Queen Mary
Hmm, bit too indie for my tastes. CokeMachineGlow always strike me as being Pitchfork's bastard brother. When is the Pitchfork list coming out btw? I can hardly wait...
Agreed, Tungsten. Thought I'd post it anyway since it merits inclusion.
Another decidedly white list, but maybe this is an indie source? I've never heard of them.
Oh look it's Jason with his black and white remarks again. YAWN.
Tungsten - You being bored of me making the same comment in an entire 2 threads doesn't change whether or not it's an accurate observation. Yawn.
too white? huh? what exactly do you mean by that? not enough hip-hop? pitchfork's list has about the same amount of hip-hop as this, and is five times more "indie"...art brut? sufjan? c'mon, i have no fucking clue what "white" or "indie" have to do with this...hmmmm...maybe it should be an all hip-hop list and then it would be "too black"...explain what you mean before you start making completely ignorant remarks
and it's not accurate at all, Jason...you're talking about MUSIC CRITICISM and trying to bring accuracy into it? you are one egotistical cock and i've barely read more than a few sentences typed by you
and by the way...Pitchfork completely ignored that DJ Muggs and GZA album, ignored Edan, and their Cam'Ron inclusion is bullshit because that album came out in 2004...Kanye's record was great, but it's not as genre-breaking phenomenal as resident hip-hop douche Tom Breihan might think, in fact, Kanye's just a spectacle, his lyrical skills are gimmick+schmaltz and that's about it, but, fuck, can him and Brion put together drums...it's just sad when people latch onto Pitchfork like it's the fucking end-all grand opinion of independent music...I'm just glad that Cokemachineglow has something of a DIFFERENT opinion...god forbid we don't all stoop and suck the mighty balls of Holy PFM
Joseph - Yes, I'm referring to the exclusion of urban (i.e. R&B, soul, hip-hop) from a lot of these lists. Sure some may throw in Kanye and 1-2 others, but in general these lists are all filled with alt and rock acts. Look at the acts that have topped the AM lists the past few years - The Strokes, The White Stripes, Radiohead, etc. All of them are alt/rock bands.
Now, people have a right to their opinion, of course, and I am not claiming anyone is wrong in their opinion. I am just making the observation that most critics seem to like a certain style of music a lot more than any other style. Make of that what you will.
It could be that most critics are white. over 80% of the USA is white, I guess there will be more white critics. Things is, white people tend to like indie/rock a lot more than black people do. Black people do tend to like hip-hop etc more than white people. End of the day you're going to get some lists that are more "indie/rock" than others.
but regardless, if a website like cokemachineglow or pitchfork have access to as much hip-hop as any black person in any major city, AND if that hip-hop is judged by critics (white OR black) who have been listening to hip-hop for their whole lives, I think it's fair to make a cross-genre list...
all of this music, I believe, is judged by people who consider the whole spectrum (as far as hip-hop versus alt/rock or whatever). you might not see experimental noise albums or maybe any zydeco, but then again, that would be WHITE wouldn't it?
i'm not ignoring the fact that there's a cultural difference between rock and hip-hop and i'm not ignoring the markets that each are usually catered to...but fuck that, Edan made the best hip-hop album this year, hands down, and he's a white guy. show me one hip-hop artist who could put together a song like he could...could layer drums and respect the primogenitors of the genre like he could...could conjure up images like he could...and i bet i could argue you're wrong. all i'm saying is that i think it's wrong to write off these critical websites because BLACK music isn't represented. that's bullshit. cokemachineglow has at least a quarter of it's content every week filled with BLACK music...and that just can't be racist, that's based on the fact that there just aren't as many BLACK people in this country...so, golly gee, there must not be as much BLACK music. now, doesn't THAT sound racist?
*sigh* This shit right here is the reason blacks and whites have reservations about each other to this day. This may seem tedious, but not if you look at the big picture... People need to stop dealing out these race cards like it's a game of blackjack. The reason black artists aren't included because a lot of so-called "black music" today is tepid, unambitious, cliche', uninspiring, formulaic, and a host of other adjectives can be used. Until something more worthwhile can be produced, you'll just have to get over it. Keep in mind, OutKast's Speakerboxxx/The Love Below topped nearly every white critic's album of the year poll back in 2003. And there are other examples too.
Michael - Have you listened to a lot of urban music to even be able to make that claim? If people only listened to a few rock acts they could make the same claim about white music.
There is plenty of great music out there by urban acts, but like with anything, someone has to put in the time to find it and listen to it.
There's simply no point to listening to urban music when it is a dying art form. I didn't say there were any exceptions to the rule. I'm just saying the reason it goes unnoticed at the end of year is because it well deserved. And this is coming from a black man who isn't eager to get defensive every time he sees a year-end list with no black artists. Good music is good music and it shouldn't be about color.
LOL! How is urban music a dying art form? It still dominates music trends and audiences.
Yeah, sure, it's plaguing airwaves, but it hardly has an artistic merit. I'm sure a part of what I'm saying you can understand. Urban music is so commercialized and it's not done for the artistry anymore. So much of it is either "ass and titties", "bling", "I got shot such and such times.", or "why you cheat on me" and more. There are a few saviors out there, but overall, urban music is bullshit these days.
I agree with Michael, most of it seems pretty mindless. People like to play it in clubs and dance to it, it seems to be more of a style or fashion than art.
Judging any music genre based on what gets major airply is way off-base though. If Sum 41, Good Charlotte, Fall Out Boy, etc. are the ambassadors of rock, then rock is just as much of a dying genre as urban music.
I completely agree, but there is a certain person on this forum who always has to drag race into everything and annoyingly so.
--I agree with Michael, most of it seems pretty mindless. People like to play it in clubs and dance to it, it seems to be more of a style or fashion than art.--
So something isn't art if it makes you want to dance? I personally think something that can take your mind off life for awhile and get you to move (literally) is just as worthy as something that moves you to tears. Are comedic films not just as important (if not harder to get right) as dramatic films? Both are certainly art.
You all just keep saying more and more things that highlight the inherent reasons why some forms of music are overlooked here and on lists. Again, I am not saying your feelings are wrong (there is no right or wrong); I'm just pointing out what is.
True, Jason, urban music may be art, and so is pornography in some circles. So basically urban music is the porn of all music. And I'm not talking about softcore either. While it may be some obscure "art", hardly anyone is trying to paint masterpieces either. It's just SSDD (same shit, different day...)
Some observations and open questions:
Pitchforks Single Top Ten includes 7 black artists and only three white. Is it "Another decidedly white list, but maybe this is an indie source?" OK, that was maybe a bit polemic so I'll try it again.
Could it be possible that, as has been mentioned before, these critics (more or less) only look at UK and US music. The US has 13 percent black people, the UK only about 2 percent. So why should there be more black music than 9 or 10 percent in the AM lists? Jason, I don't think you can present us a plausible argument for that.
What about the largest discriminated group of people in the world: women! Why don't they represent about 50 percent of AM-artists?
Well, I think one can give good reasons for that, which would mostly deal with social background, role models, etc. But I also think it is possible to quote some such and other reasons why there is only a small amount of exceptional albums from black artists (by the way: what about Hispanics, Asians, Indians...).
OK, although this is a bit confused already, I also want to give my personal opinion on the R'n'B and Hip Hop music from the last years. To me it seems, that these musical styles are stronger at producing fantastic songs than at producing coherent albums. I know all the fantastic tunes by Brandy, Beyonce, Kanye West, Missy Elliott, and so on and one common feature is, that two or three of their songs are always in my personal EOY-lists, but I'm frequently disappointed with albums by such artists because most of them are "some killers, lot's of fillers". You see, I'm a pitchfork whore;-)
Does 13% of the population automatically translate into 13% of music that is released?
And considering urban music was just called the hardcore porn of music, I don't think I need to say anything more. You all say it enough.
Jason, that's an excellent point, not that I need to tell you that, but the person above you is obviously confused. Sounds like he needs to be weened of the Pitchfork for a while. People act like that site is a place of worship and it's ridamndiculous.
Well, of course I'm a confused person but I think I perhaps sounded a bit too confused because my English reading obviously is better than my writing. But on the other hand, perhaps you (J&M) have problems with reading. I clearly stated, that some of my points are open questions. No, 13 percent of population must not transform into 13 percent of good music. With this pseudo-agument I just wanted to state, that one has to argue to convince others because this question has no simple answers. But Jason just implicitly states that good urban (black, whatever) music is underrepresented on this site. And I wonder what his arguments are. Obviously he is a fan of such music and is not satisfied with the percentage of black artists in some lists. And he sounds as if he must have some good reasons why black music is disadvantaged or discriminated in the list and on this site. But to convince other people it would be helpful to give arguments and not just personal taste. I implicitly presented an argument: in my opinion black music, like a lot of dance music and electronic stuff, is better suited for the art form of the single than for complete albums and that is why blyk music is represented in a lot of singles-lists but not so much in album-list. And I would be interested in Jasons arguments, because I hardly see how someone who gives such bold statements as he does can do that without arguments (and no, there is no universal standard for judging music, but I am convinced, at least you can try to formulate good arguments and reasons).
I'm saying you are confused because you're using once source (Pitchfork) to make your claim. It goes way beyond that...
First off I mean one, not once. And second, there is no point of you trying to sound intelligent now when you have already made a foolish statement. You should have came correct first time out. And like I said, there is no such thing as black music. Give me a definition of black music. There's no such thing as white music. It's shit like that people take offense too. Sure, blacks invented many genres of music (this is not disputable), but music should not be labeled according to skin color.
Yeah, I definitely regret ever using the term 'black' or 'white' in a post. What I really mean to say is that urban music in general is overlooked by many critics. List after list is either all rock/alt music or, at best, throws in a few token urban acts. The inclusion of country music is even less.
Some of you can easily claim that that is because there isn't much good urban music, and that's my exact point. The fact that so many people on this board (and so many critics, too) think urban music is irrelevant is a sign of...something. I am sure sources like VIBE would take issue with that, but sources that are into urban music are few and far between.
So, the real question is this; why are boards like these (and music sources in general) so into rock and 'alt' music while urban music and country music are generally viewed as inferior?
Time to step into the debate...!
Jason, I think that Tellmeallaboutit, and Pitchfork, and most of the other magazines as well for that matter, has the answer to your question. Namely that urban and hip hop music is better on singles than on albums. You said yourself that music don't always need to have clever lyrics, a good rhythm/dancebeat is often enough (I agree, just spare me the sexist lyrics please). Most critics agree with you when it comes to singles, but not for albums. I think this is partly because urban/rap CDs are seldom consistent, and partly because this music don't serve the same purpose in the album format (no DJ would ever play a whole CD during an evening).
There are a lot of genres that don't get enough attention, and this is quite annoying to me. With the jazz/world update, I started to explore the world music a bit more and it is truly exciting. I would like to buy the whole Rough Guide to World Music catalog! In the urban field, I think critics are only looking at the charts, I'm sure there are a lot of more interesting stuff going on underground. Also, I would like to see more neo-soul in the lists.
I can understand that terms like "urban" and "black" are mixed up. It seems to me though as if more whites play "black" music than vice versa. Why aren't there any black rockers? Jimi Hendrix could do it like no one else...
Henrik I agree with your last comment. Apart from Jimi hendrix, the guitarist from Audioslave/RATM, Lenny Kravitz, I cant think of many other black rockers. When you think how good Hendrix was, it's frustrating.
I've been thinking about it a lot recently, i think it's America's fault. They claim to be a liberal country but they are divided at the core, and they dont want to admit it. If you look at countries like Brazil, which also has a large number of black people, you get a far better mixture in different types of music. Something is wrong with the USA.
Just one last reply from my side because i don't like to get insulted by intellectually challenged people like Michael. Please rest assured that I don't need to "try to sound intelligent". Michael, perhaps you need it from time to time but for me it is ok to know for myself that i am intelligent. And I am not so sure about your analytical skills but let me tell you that reading and understanding are two different things. When I start with "open questions", then formulate something about 13 percent transforming into 13 percent and then make statements about 50 percent of women not transforming into 50 percent of good music and then talk about possible socio-economic or aestetic reasons, then please don't tell me I made a foolish statement, because when you do not understand that it was an attempt to demonstrate that we are talking about a complex matter which must be considered from different angles and don't have clear-cut answers, then perhaps it is you who is the fool. And by the way, regarding pitchfork: a) don't you know what that ;-) means? and b) as the discussion started with pitchfork, I thought it to be obvious to just refer to it. But please then just look into the last four or five years of AM-single-charts, in which URBAN music is higher represented then in the albums charts. Ok, that's it. Michael, if you have any further questions, do not hesitate to ask
You're not offending me by trying to insult my intelligence. It's not my fault that people with relevant arguments (i.e. Jason and I) can make childish people like tellmeallaboutit (pretentious name, by the way, but aptly fit for an arrogant asshole like him) feel insecure to point they have to null and void everyone's opinions to make themselves more confident. I'm not about to sit and argue with you. Although I know you'll be back to make some ridiculous remark to salvage your ego. You can spew hatred all you want. I am immune to the snake's venom.
Well Michael, you started the insulting. But then in return I insulted you even stronger and I regret it. But what is frustrating is, that in the beginning I tried to put some arguments in the debate (which I consider as an interestic topic) and you just slated them as foolish. And now you state that I in contrast to your relevant arguments "have to null and void everyone's opinions". That's applying double standards in my opinion. And even if my arguments are not relevant you could have argued with Henrik and Tungsten who also presented arguments or questions.
wow, no more hippie welfare as in the old heydays of AM when everybody went "i like your references" and "well, me either" and "so to you". plenty of liquid swords zipping. refurbishing, indeed. refreshing?
Honestly, I don't believe I initialized the insulting. Your arguments may have been clear to you, but esoteric to others. Hence, this is why I said you were confused. If you wanted to take that as an insult, that's on you, but regardless, this is getting dull so I apologize. Jason and I were disputing something different, that's it.
and has anybody ever thought of the fact that PPM might be actually a late virtual rip-off of some german music mag called spex who did the "urban/indie/electronica" symbiosis much more appropriate and much much earlier? despite the fact that it's regarded partly as a snobbish self indulgent student rag in its native country, it's delivered some fine eoy lists since the last 15 years. check out tommy's best-of-year-lists site if you already haven't, i for my part got tired of the attempts to establish (post-) postmodern media publishings assuming to be the new opinion leaders in an age that fullfilled itself long before they even start to happen...
grimy whiny foolish me
not to mention UK's wire magazine. they even pick up the last cecil taylor bootleg for their eoy list. how disturbingly awesome is this... lol
sorry, it's me again, but does anyone remember Living Colour? they'd evidently performed "white" music, but nonetheless (especially north american) music storekeepers filed them under "black" - naively referring to the colour of their skin. and in his early days mr. mathers seemed to be thoroughly a joke, a second vanilla ice in the eye of the public, if he hadn't been produced and pushed by dre. and what pitiful luck to those african/caribbean artists who get their records produced in the northern/western sphere - and what shame to the overseen but skillful rest. nothing new to you, i know, but pop music has always been a twisted task of markets and ethnic schemes at the expense of those ones who didn't get on the carousel on time, while telling simultaneously and secretly the same old tale. so pop is now what it is. flawed, yet uprising. a ridiculous challenge in itself. and an hopelessly relaying issue of racial matters. and that's what's bothering me the most. stupid categories like these. amos and andys and wacko jackos. instantly last year's flick jewel "crash" comes to my mind - its inherent process of self-destructive mechanisms of vintage stereotypes and sociopsychological compulsions are nothing but, well pop - seemingly we have to live with its restrictions, its solutions, its downward spiral, and its inwardly confidence. so stay close to your ipod, remember hathaway singing "someday we'll all be free"... gawd, that's soo corny, just get back to your aretha franklin version from the malcolm x soundtrack and forget what i said
and presumably i'll catch up michael and tellmeallaboutit snogging with each other on some mushroom soaked party in the middle east someday, whispering hasty words sort of "i'm so sorry" and "no, it's me who's sorry" or whatever. remember leia and han? so......
Living Colour has some great albums, particularly Time's Up!
Moonbeam, they even provided some of the finest nearly forgotten covers of the 90's with cream's "sunshine of your love" frome the True Lies soundtrack...
Aw, come on, boys! Give peace a chance...
What is this all about really? Urban OR indie-pop? And why not BOTH??
Wayne Coyne of The Flaming Lips once said: "Different kinds of music are not enemies between themselves, that’s absurd” when the Rockdelux interviewer back in 2000 asked how could he praise equally The Minutemen and The Bee Gees. And more quotes from Wayne Coyne in another interview in 2002: “We’re very open-minded. I love both Sonic Youth and Willie Nelson. And it’s nothing wrong with that. They’re in different spaces but are equally excellent”. Maybe the words aren’t exactly the ones from Coyne (I’m doing the English translation of the Spanish translation) but the message is clear: why can’t we enjoy different kinds of music?.
And it's interesting that Living Colour got a lot of praise because of the style of music they made.
Let me ask you all this; if Kelly Clarkson had made the R&B slow jam of the year, would she still be topping critics lists? In my opinion, she's topping lists because she made a rock single. If she had moved into R&B music, she wouldn't be seen as 'cool' regardless of how good the music was.
I think if Kelly Clarkson had stuck with her R&B formula, she would have inevitably drawn comparisons to a lukewarm Mariah Carey, who was still suffering from the backlash prior to The Emancipation of Mimi. It doesn't matter if she's R&B or rock, the reason why she is more successful now is because the songs are better. With so many R&B artists sticking to tired ass songs, I don't blame artists like Kelly Clarkson or Pink for trying to break the mold.