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Re: Occupy Wall Street Playlists

They (including Julian Lennon and Rufus Wainwright) actually SANG "Material Girl" during one of their protest days.

Re: Occupy Wall Street Playlists

While we're on the subject of the Kent State shootings, it only makes sense to include CSNY's "Ohio."

And now that I'm thinking of Neil Young, pretty much anything off of his "Living with War" album would fit too.

And what the hell, let's throw just about anything by Rage Against the Machine (not just "Killing in the Name") onto this list as well.

Re: Occupy Wall Street Playlists

For those interested, here's are some links that helps break down some of the demographics of the OWS protests.

http://www.fastcompany.com/1789018/occupy-wall-street-demographics-statistics

http://www.statisticbrain.com/occupy-wall-street-statistics-and-demographics/

So yeah, not just college kids.

Re: Occupy Wall Street Playlists

Thanks, very interesting stuff, that's even fewer unemployed people than I'd read.

Re: Occupy Wall Street Playlists

Matt Schroeder
While we're on the subject of the Kent State shootings, it only makes sense to include CSNY's "Ohio."

And now that I'm thinking of Neil Young, pretty much anything off of his "Living with War" album would fit too.

And what the hell, let's throw just about anything by Rage Against the Machine (not just "Killing in the Name") onto this list as well.


Great suggestions:

My favorites from Living with War include: Lookin' For a Leader, Flags of Freedom, and Families

Re: Occupy Wall Street Playlists

Nick
For those interested, here's are some links that helps break down some of the demographics of the OWS protests.

http://www.fastcompany.com/1789018/occupy-wall-street-demographics-statistics

http://www.statisticbrain.com/occupy-wall-street-statistics-and-demographics/

So yeah, not just college kids.
Ok, I was a bit off.
On the second link, it has 61% being male, 37.5% female and 1.5% other.

Re: Occupy Wall Street Playlists

Here's my take on the Occupy protests.

At their core, they have a very valid point about the government enabling of Wall Street abuses.

However, they have no:
-Coherent strategy
-Coherent message
-Real understanding of economics
-Desire to settle for a crappy, but attainable job to pay the bills until they can find the job they really want

It's all those 90s college kids with cushy childhoods where their parents had six figure 1990s incomes who majored in things like art history. Now, they could easily get some crappy job that pays the bills. But no, they were told they'd never have to settle, and they refuse to, so they expect other people to pay their bills until they get the fun job they expected.

Re: Occupy Wall Street Playlists

Now I see. BillAdama's the pseudo for Herman Cain
Seriously how can you generalize things like that
I think that on the contrary they have a good understanding of a system where all the gains go private while you have to pay the bills when there are losses
And I suggest we continued that discussion in the non musical thread
Fuck it's not just a question of getting a job. There are things that gvts can do and tbat they refuse to do especially the US and Uk who refuse to touch their financial systems

Re: Occupy Wall Street Playlists

Count me as one of those with no real understanding of economics. But there's one thing I know, the ones that it's supposed to have this real understanding are doing it really badly. If I did my work as bad as them, I'd be fired by now. But today is the opposite, they receive money coming from the taxes and, worse enough, they are taking the power in the way of a silent assault. Today in Europe the democratically elected presidents (and I'm not going to be the one defending people like Berlusconi or Papandreu) are being replaced by technocrats coming from the same financial élite that generated the crisis (both Monti and Papademos, the new presidents of Italy and Greece, worked previously for Goldman Sachs).
By the way, "Silent Assault" is a good name for a band, isn't it?

Re: Occupy Wall Street Playlists

nicolas
Now I see. BillAdama's the pseudo for Herman Cain
Seriously how can you generalize things like that
I think that on the contrary they have a good understanding of a system where all the gains go private while you have to pay the bills when there are losses
And I suggest we continued that discussion in the non musical thread
Fuck it's not just a question of getting a job. There are things that gvts can do and tbat they refuse to do especially the US and Uk who refuse to touch their financial systems


Why is it, whenever you post an opinion on a message board frequented by Europeans which is fiscally two inches to the right of Europe, you're immediately lumped in with the neocons?

They seem to have the understanding though that there exists a fixed quantity of wealth, and the government is the only body in charge of devying it out. This is not the case.

Investment generates value, and frankly, if just putting the government in charge of devying out the wealth in a way they considered 'fair' was a good way to stimulate the economy, Europe would be doing a lot better right now. I agree, we need to fix it so money doesn't have such a huge influence on lawmaking, and there should be regulations that prevent the kind of high risk investments that caused this recession. But no, I think you'll find the 'Just heap on more taxes on the people who happen to afford it the best' approach is not a good way to stimulate growth. Exhibit A: Europe.

Re: Occupy Wall Street Playlists

That's an incredibly inaccurate description of most European countries. That said, what many northern European countries have been doing has actually worked pretty well, and still does. Why is it that Americans immediately lump together every country in Europe?

Top 500 CEO wages have gone up 37% in the US in the last year, so I'd say the Occupy protesters may have a little something to complain about.

Re: Occupy Wall Street Playlists

Today is a very sad day, because my most dear and favourite politician, Vaclav Havel, died. I recommend you all to read some of his books concerning his view of politics and peace. It might do you good ...

As 'simple' European I would like to see political and economical systems that work in the interest of the humans' health and personal development. It is commonly accepted now, that communism does not really support this interest, it is less commonly known that capitalism does not do a much better job either. Who needs a free market to generate value, and who needs growth when it means that we do not solve the upcoming energy and environmental problems. Sometimes less is more, I would suggest.

Re: Occupy Wall Street Playlists

Andre
we do not solve the upcoming energy and environmental problems.


Edit: To name just a few (I know it's not that simple, we have more upcoming problems to tackle)

Re: Occupy Wall Street Playlists

Nobel prize Joseph Stiglitz and economist Jeff Madrick among others expressed their support to the Ocuppy Wall St movement. I think they are neither economically ignorant nor European so...
And it's not just a fiscal question, although I'm in favor of taxes on financial profits.
There are many things in the credit and lending systems that are unethical not to say almost criminal in the US (and it's coming to Europe too). Let me quote Stiglitz

"Our financial markets have an important role to play. They’re supposed to allocate capital and manage risk, but they’ve misallocated capital and created risk. We are bearing the cost of their misdeeds. There’s a system where we’ve socialized losses and privatized gains. That’s not capitalism! That’s not a market economy. That’s a distorted economy, and if we continue with that, we won’t succeed in growing, and we won’t succeed in creating a just society."

See the whole discussion here.

And BillAdama, if I compared you to Cain, it's because he said something very similar like "if you don't have a job it's your fault, don't put the blame on banks". It's a little shorthanded, I admit, but the problem is much wider and complex than that.

Re: Occupy Wall Street Playlists

Stephan
That's an incredibly inaccurate description of most European countries. That said, what many northern European countries have been doing has actually worked pretty well, and still does. Why is it that Americans immediately lump together every country in Europe?

Top 500 CEO wages have gone up 37% in the US in the last year, so I'd say the Occupy protesters may have a little something to complain about.


As a US citizen, I have been told by my European friends that my political philosophy is more aligned with the Europeans. I agree with the view that the northern Europeans have integrated aspects of the welfare state with capitalism in a fairly successful manner. There are key characteristics of the US that distinguish our nation from those in northern Europe, but I am not sure whether such differences should be viewed as being dispositive in determining that our economy should be operated using a different model than that used successfully by the northern European nations.

One of the problems I have with much discourse in the US is that it is based on the fundamental notion that the US has the best answers and that we don't need to look elsewhere for inspiring alternatives that could work effectively in our nation.

The most glaring short-coming of US policy has been our deregulation of the banking/finance sector of our economy. While there is great value in aggressive capital flow to technological developments that can transform our societies; I am not convinced that de-regulation improves such flow substantially. The dangers of decreased regulation are quite apparent when one considers the collateralized debt obligations that multiplied the risk from housing loans that were not sound because of lax enforcement of regulations regarding diligent assessment of such loan financing. In Canada, the housing market has not been nearly as troubled as the US in the past 6 years, because Canada didn't have lax enforcement and deregulation.

All nations need to stop recklessly feeding money to the banks and financial institutions, and instead prioritize our investments to ensure that technological development and human development (e.g., education) are our top agenda items.

Re: Occupy Wall Street Playlists

I couldn't agree more, Henry

Re: Occupy Wall Street Playlists

I don't understand why average citizens are so against OWS. So what if there isn't a coherent platform? There are hundreds of things wrong with the current state of the economy that if you "coherently" go after just one we'll still have a problem. I believe it's much more coherent to sit outside the buildings of the people screwing things up and say to them and the government that things suck and they need to fix it.

I think the worst thing is that it's partisan. Clinton screwed things up just as much, if not more than Bush and it goes back further than that. I don't get why the middle class is taking sides with this. The only side they should be taking is their own. It's not just about wealth, it's about not being able to live and compete in the market anymore. You can't open your own business anymore because it will crumble to the ground trying to compete with the big corporations. That's as much as our fault as it is the governments or the corporations for allowing that to happen. But, to be against OWS for trying to drum up support to take a little bit of their country back is ludicrous and again, I don't know why anybody outside of the few would be against it other than that is what they are being told.

Re: Occupy Wall Street Playlists

John
I don't understand why average citizens are so against OWS. So what if there isn't a coherent platform? There are hundreds of things wrong with the current state of the economy that if you "coherently" go after just one we'll still have a problem. I believe it's much more coherent to sit outside the buildings of the people screwing things up and say to them and the government that things suck and they need to fix it.

I think the worst thing is that it's partisan. Clinton screwed things up just as much, if not more than Bush and it goes back further than that. I don't get why the middle class is taking sides with this. The only side they should be taking is their own. It's not just about wealth, it's about not being able to live and compete in the market anymore. You can't open your own business anymore because it will crumble to the ground trying to compete with the big corporations. That's as much as our fault as it is the governments or the corporations for allowing that to happen. But, to be against OWS for trying to drum up support to take a little bit of their country back is ludicrous and again, I don't know why anybody outside of the few would be against it other than that is what they are being told.


I agree that partisanship is big part of the problem. Both parties have been preserving wedge issues for the next election cycle rather than solving problems with integrity for many decades. Materialism and consumerism are lauded as drivers for growth. But, such growth is not sustainable.

Knowledge and the development of transformative technology are more properly viewed as sustainable drivers of growth. Until we overcome the partisan divide, our nation will expend far too much energy blaming the other side, and thereby only approach our potential in terms of development of a knowledge economy in a much delayed time frame.

Re: Occupy Wall Street Playlists

No Woody Guthrie song ? You must be kidding me !

Re: Occupy Wall Street Playlists

nicolas
No Woody Guthrie song ? You must be kidding me !


I need to add Woody's version of "This Land is Your Land" at a minimum.

Other Guthrie additions could be: Mule Skinner Blues and Worried Man Blues, and other songs that are specifically recommended.

Re: Occupy Wall Street Playlists

I didn't mean to seem like I was attacking Europe, I'm just tired of being compared to GOP candidates whenever I suggest that regulation may possibly have unintended side effects that are harmful.

Now, if you compared me to Ron Paul, I wouldn't have been offended. (Though he is significantly to the right of me on fiscal issues). I would say if Europe is 0, Herman Cain is 100, and democrats are 50, I am at about 60 or 70.

It's obvious there are problems. Money has too much influence in lawmaking, there's all kinds of government-enforced monopolies, banks are being rewarded for making bad investments, and that doesn't even get into environmental abuses.

But it's not nearly as simple as 'Take from the rich and give to the poor and everything will be peachy'. Honestly, I don't care if the rich people are making a lot of money. I'd rather raise up the poor than knock down the rich, and I honestly don't believe knocking down the rich is an effective way to help the poor. Let's put it this way. If nobody is starving, and everybody has enough money to live a decent life, what do you care if a few people have a lot more?

Raising the cost of businesses to do business, or reducing the amount of investment capital is going to stagnate growth and employment. So why can't we address the abuses without attacking the entire system and automatically villainizing anyone who is successful?

I like the idea behind the Occupy movement, but I think as long as they're unwilling to play the game as it is played (Because they think proudly that they shouldn't have to), they're not going to win it.

Re: Occupy Wall Street Playlists

BillAdama
I didn't mean to seem like I was attacking Europe, I'm just tired of being compared to GOP candidates whenever I suggest that regulation may possibly have unintended side effects that are harmful.

Now, if you compared me to Ron Paul, I wouldn't have been offended. (Though he is significantly to the right of me on fiscal issues). I would say if Europe is 0, Herman Cain is 100, and democrats are 50, I am at about 60 or 70.

It's obvious there are problems. Money has too much influence in lawmaking, there's all kinds of government-enforced monopolies, banks are being rewarded for making bad investments, and that doesn't even get into environmental abuses.

But it's not nearly as simple as 'Take from the rich and give to the poor and everything will be peachy'. Honestly, I don't care if the rich people are making a lot of money. I'd rather raise up the poor than knock down the rich, and I honestly don't believe knocking down the rich is an effective way to help the poor. Let's put it this way. If nobody is starving, and everybody has enough money to live a decent life, what do you care if a few people have a lot more?

Raising the cost of businesses to do business, or reducing the amount of investment capital is going to stagnate growth and employment. So why can't we address the abuses without attacking the entire system and automatically villainizing anyone who is successful?

I like the idea behind the Occupy movement, but I think as long as they're unwilling to play the game as it is played (Because they think proudly that they shouldn't have to), they're not going to win it.


I agree with much of what Bill has said and continue to admire his ability to clearly articulate his perspectives.

However, I have some problems with Bill's last statement. In my view, the game has been rigged so that the folks who control the capital flow make the most money despite the very small value their services provide.

We need to ensure that the playing field justly rewards those who actually create and sustain life-transforming technological advances and treat the capitalists fairly as part of the infrastructure that enables these technology creators to distribute their advances more efficiently. With the game as it is presently rigged, the capitalists make far more money than they deserve, and control our government through campaign financing.

On the other hand, the technologists receive so little reward that we need to import far too may technologists from India, China, etc. Finally, the technologists from these other nations now see that their efforts are rewarded just as well when the remain in their native nations. So, the US can no longer count on the brain drain to skew in our favor.

Re: Occupy Wall Street Playlists

I really don't think there is any way to totally fix the problem without major, potentially crippling risks. The government bought and sold a global economy and the public bought into the low prices with blinders on as all of their businesses went under. But hey, they could still buy a t-shirt for a couple bucks. People my age, 30 and younger no nothing else but corporate America. The risk of removing tax breaks for rich corporations is that they'll move overseas and still sell their products here without benefiting us. If everyone agreed to support local businesses it wouldn't be an issue and we'd be a self sustaining country again, something we robbed ourselves of... but I don't think we can trust ourselves to do this.

Re: Occupy Wall Street Playlists

The bleakest and most ominous protest song: The Specials - Ghost Town...

Re: Occupy Wall Street Playlists

"as long as they're unwilling to play the game as it is played (Because they think proudly that they shouldn't have to), they're not going to win it."

Man, how old are you, 20-so, and you're still resigned ? those people believe the system can be changed, because the game is rigged as Henry said.
There are people who dream about better days, a better world. Why do you think nothing has to be changed ?
Why should people shouldn't be indignant ? Why always talking about growth, growth, growth ? I don't think it makes people happy if you want my opinion, I don't think it is the standard by which you evaluate a country's development.
Why shouldn't people say no to that model ? Sometimes I think that most people who're against the indignant movements all around the world are afraid to question the system they live in.
There was a time when most artists especially rock musicians and rock lovers were rebels.
if you're happy with that system (free market capitalism), good for you. I'm not. You say that regulation can do wrong. I see acountry(the US) in which the absence of regulation caused a major crisis. And I'm gonna say it loud.
Why should I play this game ? Did i chose it ? No

Re: Occupy Wall Street Playlists

And, sorry to come back to that non musical discussion but when u say «Europe is 0» this is ridiculous, as if Europe was a whole and there was no difference between the right and left here, between the different countries, etc.
I'm done with this debata, let's talk music nowVj

Re: Occupy Wall Street Playlists

"If Europe is zero" will SOOOO become my new meme... btw, nice read, but this clearly doesn't belong into the music section... Henrik, do you mind if i erase this thread from the Max Headroom library?

Re: Occupy Wall Street Playlists

My college research that i'm finally starting this week is about trying to find a link or a network among the revolts we saw this year and the up and coming economical crisis. OWS is a minor one. I really focus on what happened in Northern Africa, England, Chile. Now a whole system is fearing a collapse in the hands of greeks, italians. Europe is facing such a growing political-economical crisis, it will surely affect the countries that have any connection to them. People are even starting to talk about those russian protests. There are those rumors that Germany is even considering walking out of EU. I'm starting the studying right now. I must say: it's weird to see the americans and the occident countries fighting to assure dictatorship in many countries that need to be more favorable to them in the Cold War than to the Soviets and a few years later watch the NATO intervene in those very same countries.

The rebels need cohesion and coherence. During the imperialist days of the arly 20th century, countries of the middle east managed to get their independence via protests and then they started internal fights over power, religion as part of the state, which group should take over, which not. If a group doesn't have a identity, they don't have nothing. If Egypt rebels have a islam identity like so many claim when it comes about this arab spring, they will surely start a theocracy in the molds of 79 Iranian Revolution. Democracy is possible in the Middle East, we just need to adapt it to its culture and its people. Democracy is a term that has changed its meaning so much during times, that it amazes me that the neo-liberal way of democracy is usually seen as the only standing.

The chinese could take EU out of the crisis in a minute or two. Will the chinese rule the world? Will the chinese people and its middle class start claiming for changes in their system and then another big protest will emerge? The BRICS are pretty much convenience over real cohesion. EU is cohesion, EU + USA are cohesive. But they both are facing their system newest crisis and each state is starting to look for itself over outright cooperation. Is the US falling out of the high height of international politics gracefully just like England before the First World War?

A professor of mine was arguing about the similarities between our times and the beginnings of the '29 crisis. It's not about economic recession only. Last time, in the between war times, the atmosphere was perfect for the emerging of fascist governments and right-wing, left-wing dictatorships. The '73 oleo crisis was enough to transform the Middle East. Protests have been happening since the crisis of 2008 and i remember the Iranian Election of 2009 that forbidden the people to put their elected candidate in power because of a sent from above decision of the ayatollah. Beware of those economical crises, they never miss the opportunity to spread into politics.

Re: Occupy Wall Street Playlists

China is a bubble, built on American investments, I wouldn't put too much faith in their ability to "take the EU out of the crisis".

Re: Occupy Wall Street Playlists

nj you got a point. We really should talk about music;
But the number of posts here suggests that this OWS thing triggered something in many of us, even if like any other group we have our differences (ideological but also cultural).
So let's get back to music and open a thread in the apropriate section of the forum for further discussion
So sorry for those who went looking for protest songs playlists and had to go through our barroom discussion

Re: Occupy Wall Street Playlists

Stephan
China is a bubble, built on American investments, I wouldn't put too much faith in their ability to "take the EU out of the crisis".


They actually offered to do this! And they also are the ones to blame for the crisis. I also think that China is going to place the bulls before the cars. They are actually a bubble. And if this bubble blows – socially, politically or economically speaking - i don't know what's going to happen to the neoliberal system as we know it.

Re: Occupy Wall Street Playlists

This thread has become an unstoppable machine lol

Re: Occupy Wall Street Playlists

nicolas
This thread has become an unstoppable machine lol


Ok, I'll stop I guess that people that enjoy arts more that others actually enjoy speaking about politics. And i guess that people should speak about politics more. It's funny how no one cares to spent their time reading gossips or football news or even Christian magazines, but they still see politics as a taboo to speak about. This is a music thread and we have a space for this stuff, so it's totally understandable that we won't do this here, but there's a large amount of people that don't touch about the subject in their own houses. They don't have no idea of what's going on in this world.

Re: Occupy Wall Street Playlists

I agree with you HRS, I don't want to stop people from expressing themselves, especially after I've done so.

So now please if you want to go on with the political part of this discussion please post in this thread

Re: Occupy Wall Street Playlists

If Europe is zero...

(I can't believe no one else has posted this before me...)

...then what are 1, 2, 3, and 4? Because I think we all know that man is 5, the devil is 6 and God is 7.