Indie fans are the most nerdy (and pale). All the metal fans on RYM are angry teenagers with nothing better to do in their free time (I'm both of the above ).
Pitchfork. Enough said.
Again, pale + nerdy = indie fan.
We once again go back to the pale nerd thing...

In all seriousness, I think that a large reason for the Indie boom in the 00's is because of the general decline of mainstream music (i.e. Taylor Swift, Justin Beiber, Lil Wayne). This gave critics two choices: make lists with these shitty songs, or go underground.

These are the albums I have not heard in their entirety. Except for Nick Cave, Tom Waits, Sufjan Stevens, Kanye, and maybe a couple of others, I don't think I'll get around to all of these with all of the 2011 listening I'm doing as EOY lists come out.

Ranking the top 50 songs is fairly easy, so is the bottom 20. But the other 30 give me headache, like a 30-way tie... songs I like but don't love.

Spreadsheet? Pretty please?

I sent it to you. Hopefully you can release it here (I can't). Thanks.

The following is entirely in jest, so please do not take any of it seriously or directed at any of the wonderful folks who participate in these AM forums. I completely respect your taste and ability to articulate the reasons for your appreciation of the music you enjoy the most.

That said - I am not buying the pale nerd thing, any shade of nerd will do.

In my view, it's the nerd posing as a hipster. The poser cannot be considered hip if the poser admits to enjoying mainstream music or music that is considered lame by other hipsters. That's part of the reason why performers like John Mayer, Coldplay, and Matchbox 20 get so little love from either the critics or AMers. Hipsters and posers need to articulate their devotion to the acts the mainstream rejects (e.g., Velvet Underground). There is some tolerance for posers to admit enjoying acts that are not weird, just as long as those acts are at least a tiny bit quirky or maudlin and not too popular in the mainstream.

Just sayin'

This is a spotify list for most of the 2000s songs

What's missing? All of Arcade Fire. Heartbeats by The Knife. And for funny's sake, I put a classical cover of Reckoner by Radiohead.

Thanks Zorg! I was just going to ask if anyone had done that.

I don't see why there's this discussion on the predominance of "indie music" on the 2000's lists, when the discussion should be on the predominance of rock on all lists. After all, isn't indie just another permutation of rock? You can question why there isn't a whole lot of rap, jazz, or (insert non rock genre here) on the EOD 2000's lists, but then you have to ask yourself the same thing about every EOD list for every decade since the 1950's. Maybe the critics aren't "indie-centric", maybe they're just "rockist".

As for why the critics are choosing indie rock over mainstream rock, well, have you heard most mainstream rock??

I know this topic is so 3 days ago, but I have a couple of things to add to it.


I think here in the UK the critics who make lists (and the people who look at their lists) tend to be people who are unimpressed with the mainstream music they hear on the radio or on music television and as a result seek out music that is “better” than the mainstream but similar in genre. If the music on mainstream radio or on music charts was mostly, say, blues or Nubian music from Egypt, then music labels would sign more blues or Nubian bands, music publications and websites would focus on blues or Nubian music more than any other style, and critics lists would probably consist of blues and Nubian albums that are perceived to be of better quality than those in the charts.

But at the moment it is pop, rock, R&B and hip-hop you see in the charts (here in the UK at least), and although there don’t seem to be that many websites about non-mainstream R&B and hip-hop (maybe I’m just not looking hard enough) there are plenty of websites and blogs about indie rock and pop. Pitchfork and many other indie-oriented websites are hugely popular, and if you look at their target audience (teenagers and young adults) then certain sociological observations can be made...


Of course, not all young people who like indie are hipsters or posers, but if Pitchfork tells you that a band is cool and your friends dig them too, then you also want to be cool and want to fit in with your friends, so you start digging that band too (I like BillAdama’s comment in another thread about being different just like everyone else). I don’t think the effect that this target audience of teenagers and young adults have on the music industry (and on music criticism) can be underestimated. For the past 20 years (since Nirvana so accurately captured teenage angst on Nevermind?) music producers, studios, record labels and the press have focused on younger people as the main target audience. New indie bands or artists that get discovered each year tend to be young too, and they often want to create a sound similar to the bands they themselves like. So the kind of stuff the indie bands play dictates what will be noticed by indie labels and therefore the indie-oriented press (and therefore critics and people who seek good pop and rock music that aren’t mainstream), and I can’t see that changing anytime soon.

There are obviously a lot of logical fallacies / sweeping generalisations that can be pointed out about the comments I’ve made above. I mean, of course people who like indie music are not robots who blindly follow trends and only listen to indie music (but I do think that once you get into a specific style of music it becomes difficult to give other styles which are radically different a fair chance). Also, bands don’t always want to sound like other cool bands – there are genuinely creative indie acts out there who seem to have a vast knowledge of music of various genres and who draw on this knowledge for inspiration. And we have to give critics credit for often creating awareness of great indie acts whose music a lot of people on this forum enjoy.


Good point. When I came across this wonderful site a few years ago and looked at the top 3000 albums, my first thought was: wow, that’s a looooooot of rock! I wonder why that is. Is it because rock have always been seen as more exciting, better at evolving than other genres, the genre that most accurately connects with raw human emotion? Or maybe it’s just because music critics have always been predominantly male and therefore rock music feature more often on critics’ lists than other less masculine genres. But fortunately there are lists that aren’t only rock-oriented (whether indie or otherwise), and that’s one of the reasons why I love exploring people’s personal lists on this forum.

Are you kidding? Of course, this was interesting!

Are you sure that Art Pop belongs to Indie Pop? The last Kate Bush album is considered Art Pop, that's not really Indie Pop I would say?

Anyway, I have nothing against Indie Rock, so thank you for the very interesting stats!

Back to top! Ten days left to vote. So far only six people have sent their lists (Tim E, Stephan, Greg, VanillaFire1000, John and Miguel).

Submit your list to popelton (at) gmail (dot) com.
Thanks

4 albums to go (including a 3 disc set by Tom Waits...)
My song list is ready, I can send it already if it helps compiling (though I would like to add a few comments)

No hurry. I just wanted to remind that people won't forget to vote. Comments are very welcome.

I'm sending everything today but without comments
There are 15 albums I haven't heard in all but I've heard at least 4 or 5 songs in each
I'm no masochist hahaha

41 of these remain unheard..doubt I'll be able to get to all of 'em.

Great comments on this thread (especially Dan M’s!!). Now, if you don’t mind, I would like to introduce a new point for debate (and mainly post some great pictures). The question is: are we sexists?

Comparing our songs list and the one from the critics I saw that we left out many songs from female artists. These were the songs on the critics Top 10 that were not in our list:
Madonna - Music (#8 of 2000)
Aaliyah - Try Again (#9 of 2000)
Hives, The - Hate to Say I Told You So (#10 of 2000)
Jay-Z - IZZO (H.O.V.A.) (#10 of 2001)
Rapture, The - House of Jealous Lovers (#2 of 2002)
Timberlake, Justin - Cry Me a River (#7 of 2002)
Spears, Britney - Toxic (#6 of 2003)
Kelis - Milkshake (#9 of 2003)
!!! - Me and Giuliani Down by the Schoolyard (A True Story) (#10 of 2003)
Clarkson, Kelly - Since U Been Gone (#3 of 2004)
Killers, The - Mr. Brightside (#6 of 2004)
M.I.A. - Galang (#9 of 2004)
Arctic Monkeys - I Bet You Look Good on the Dancefloor (#1 of 2005)
Madonna - Hung Up (#6 of 2005)
Game, The feat. 50 Cent - Hate It or Love It (#7 of 2005)
Three 6 Mafia - Stay Fly (#9 of 2005)
Franz Ferdinand - Do You Want To (#10 of 2005)
Hot Chip - Over and Over (#5 of 2006)
Hot Chip - And I Was a Boy From School (#7 of 2006)
Justice vs. Simian - We Are Your Friends (#9 of 2006)
Band of Horses - The Funeral (#10 of 2006)
Rihanna feat. Jay-Z - Umbrella (#3 of 2007)
Justice - D.A.N.C.E. (#6 of 2007)
Battles - Atlas (#7 of 2007)
Burial - Archangel (#8 of 2007)
Lil Wayne - A Milli (#5 of 2008)
Estelle feat. Kanye West - American Boy (#6 of 2008)
Hot Chip - Ready for the Floor (#7 of 2008)
Lady Gaga - Poker Face (#8 of 2008)
Kings of Leon - Sex on Fire (#10 of 2008)
Dirty Projectors - Stillness Is the Move (#4 of 2009)
Big Pink, The - Dominos (#9 of 2009)
Dizzee Rascal - Bonkers (#10 of 2009)

So, you see, we forgot a lot of girls, in alphabetical order:
- Aaliyah
- Britney Spears
- Estelle
- Kelis
- Kelly Clarkson
- Lady Gaga
- Madonna (this case was particularly unfair, with not one but two excellent songs out, “Music” and “Hung Up”)
- Rihanna

So, with Annie and Duffy getting into our list, there were 6 more female artists on the critics list.
By the way, the song higher ranked by the critics that did not enter our list was The Rapture's "House of Jealous Lovers". And the opposite, Kanye West's "Gone" and TV on the Radio's "Halfway Home" were not even bubbling under.

But, is it a question of bias agaisnt women or against mainstream artists? Maybe it's the second because there is a lot of female touch in our lists. Do you want to see them? So here they are, Otis Redding-style, our ladies in alphabetical order (if we add the ones from our album list too):



Amerie


Amy Winehouse


Annie


Beth Gibbons (Portishead)


Beyoncé


Björk


Deradoorian and Amber Coffman (Dirty Projectors)


Duffy


Feist, Emily Haines and Amy Millan (Broken Social Scene)


Joanna Newsom


Karen O (Yeah Yeah Yeahs)


Karin Dreijer (The Knife, Fever Ray)


Kylie Minogue


M.I.A.


Meg White (The White Stripes)


Missy Elliott


Natasha Khan (Bat for Lashes)


PJ Harvey


Regine Cassagne and Sarah Neufeld (Arcade Fire)


Robyn


Romy Madley-Croft and Baria Qureshi (The xx)


Santigold


Sleater-Kinney (Corin Tucker, Carrie Brownstein and Janet Weiss)

All of a sudden I'm an Amerie fan.

I noticed that the youtube link of Work It wasn't the right version of the song. Here's the original.
Missy Elliott - Work It

Any chance of extending the date to January 7 or something like that?

Agree with sonofsamiam. I got my lists already done but I would like more time to write some comments.
Merry Christmas everyone.

Oh yeah, I haven't sent my list yet have I?

I'll take advantage of this 4 day weekend and do so.

Edit: And I just realized there is one album I haven't heard, Dear Catastrophe Waitress.

Anotheredit: I think it's more that indie critics don't pay attention to as much music by female artists, because they don't fit the one personality type they look for.

And most of the women the mainstream critics like are the ones marketed by sex appeal.

I would like to third the notion to extend the deadline a week.
And it's so obvious these women musicians aren't scouted for their talent by just watching the music videos.

I just listened to the two I hadn't heard yet (Dear Catastrophe Waitress and From A Basement On A Hill). From A Basement surprised me a lot. I think I like it better than his 'Big two'.

@Petri

Is it okay to send you my vote in plaintext or is it easier for you if I send it in an Excel file?

If extended voting time means more voters (and comments) I think it's worth it. So the dead line is 8th of January (12 PM Forum time - or actually Monday morning when I wake up).
If you have your lists already done don't hesitate to submit it earlier. You can send the comments later. I have already the presentation (pictures, links, layout) ready for release so the biggest work is to add fans and haters section + of course the rankings.


It's easier for me if you send an Excel (or StarOffice, OpenOffice) file but if you don't have excel you can send plaintext (then please use the same band names than I in top of the page - I mean if it's The Postal Service don't vote for Postal Service. (Arcade Fire is an exception))
And again here's the link to Spreadsheet

If you look at the pictures you posted it sure looks like AMers prefer their ladies on the pretty side. But maybe that says more about the music industry’s superficial requirement that female artists have sex appeal, which doesn’t apply to male artists to the same extent.

Interesping post, Honorio. Although I think the comparatively small amount of female artists on critics’ lists (and on our own forum lists) probably has more to do with bias against mainstream artists than against women, I do think there are a few changes that could be made in music criticism to ensure that male and female artists are judged on the same terms: music journalists could place less emphasis on how much male producers/collaborators contribute to the output of female artists (in an interview with Pitchfork, M.I.A. drew attention to this when she complained that the media exaggerated producer Diplo’s contribution to Arular); critics could also stop comparing women with only women, and men with only men (if you read reviews about Laura Marling’s latest album, nearly all of them mention how the album is influenced by Joni Mitchell, but no one mentions Nick Drake or Leonard Cohen, whose influences are actually more apparent to my ears); and more women should become critics to spread awareness of overlooked female artists! I sometimes wish all the women critics would form an association and release a consensus list – it would be interesting to see how that compares with other lists.

Exactly. It isn't us that's sexist, it's the mechanisms that expose us to music that are sexist.

The great music from females I've heard this year is great at projecting complexity of emotion, but it's not as noisy or experimental as this year's crop of Pfork-bait. (Except for PJ Harvey and St Vincent, who got their share of critical acclaim).

Critics just happen to be obsessed with the kind of music males make more often than females. So these critics are putting all the music by males at the top of their lists, and then a lot of voters did their listening from the top of the list.

I sent you my album list.
Thank you.

Do we have to listen to the entire album in order to rank it? I've listened to about thirty minutes of Tom Waits' album, and I don't have much interest in continuing.

Well I would say it is better to listen to them in full, but there are 4 or 5 albums I stopped before the end because I arrived at work and did not feel the need to listen after that.
And one album I did not succeed to listen entirely because it hurted my ears ^^

The 3 Tom Waits CDs are quite different from one another, so it might be good to listen to at least half of each, you could be surprised (I don't like it much either though...)

Happy new year everyone!

Still one week to vote for.
So far I've got albums lists from

Tim E, Greg, Stephan, VanillaFire1000, John, Miguel, nicolas, Henry, Brad, Nassim, BillAdama, SuperFurry, Romain, Harold Wexler, Evan, Nick, Michel, Jonah, Chris K and Jackson

and
songs lists from

Greg, Stephan, VanillaFire1000, John, Miguel, nicolas, Depeche Mode, Henry, Nassim, Harold Wexler, Nick, Evan, Romain, Michel, Chris K and Jackson
(+ I have added my own lists to both lists)

So 21 album lists and 17 song lists so far. Many regulars haven't send their lists yet so I hope that the number of voters will be around 40 (or at least +30) in both categories.

of course not: there are much better things to do in life than listening to albums we don't like When listening to records is not a pleasure anymore, then total nerdness is not very far

But I've heard at least 4/5 songs of the 15 albums I haven't heard entirely (yes, even Gorillaz or Postal Service)

PS Tom Waits is in my top 5

Still hoping to get my lists in, but things have been very crazy for me. I just moved with my family from NJ up to Amherst, Massachusetts (birthplace of Dinosaur Jr! Not-quite birthplace of the Pixies!). Still living out of boxes right now...

After previous list of voters only Honorio, sonofsamiam, Gillingham and Dan M have send their lists.
I have also send few requests to people who have something obscurities on their lists (two #33's and no something else rank etc.). So please respond to my mail (only Jonah have responded thanks for that).
I won't be online on Monday (9th of January) so you get one more extra day to vote.

I'll have my list in Friday.

Unfortunately I will not be able to submit a list, but I would like to give a shout-out to Johnny Cash, and hoping to see "Hurt" in the top 10.

Two days to vote for!
Hopefully many will still send his/her lists.

Voting is now closed. I will add the lists (+ comments) that came in last two days (pretty many).
The results thread will be open after that (maybe tonight but probably tomorrow).
I'll inform later today.
Thanks for voting!

Following AMers voted for ALBUMS. Please reply quickly if you name isn't in the list and you voted for ALBUMS. (I have still work to do before starting the show).

Beefsupreme
BillAdama
Brad
Chris
Chris K
Dan M
Evan
Gillingham
Greg
Harold Wexler
Henrik
Henry
Honorio
Jackson
John
Jonah
Jonathon
Michel
Midaso
Miguel
Moonbeam
Nassim
Nick
nicolas
Petri
Rocky Raccoon
Romain
Schwah
Slick
sonofsamiam
Stephan
SuperFurry
Tim E
VanillaFire1000
Zorg

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