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Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

Well I still have a bunch of them I haven't listened to...


Amy Winehouse - Back to Black
Belle and Sebastian - Dear Catastrophe Waitress
Björk - Vespertine
Bob Dylan - "Love and Theft"
Coldplay - A Rush of Blood to the Head
Coldplay - Parachutes
Elliott Smith - From a Basement on the Hill
Eminem - The Marshall Mathers LP
Gnarls Barkley - St. Elsewhere
Kanye West - The College Dropout
M.I.A. - Arular
Modest Mouse - Good News for People Who Love Bad News
Nick Cave and The Bad Seeds - Abattoir Blues / The Lyre of Orpheus
OutKast - Speakerboxxx / The Love Below
Queens of the Stone Age - Songs for the Deaf
Sleater-Kinney - The Woods
Sleater-Kinney - One Beat
Sufjan Stevens - Michigan
Super Furry Animals - Rings Around The World
The Hold Steady - Stay Positive
The National - Alligator
Tom Waits - Orphans: Brawlers, Bawlers & Bastards
Wilco - A Ghost Is Born

A pretty good playlist if I want to commit to listening to everything.

Any recommendations? Is it really a huge travesty that I haven't listened to a Coldplay album?

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

Keith
Is there a website that you guys use to listen to full albums for free because I don't understand how you all manage to listen to so many albums.


Spotify should have most of the albums, if not all of them.

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

Do what I do - spend way too much money and own them all.

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

Evan
Keith
Is there a website that you guys use to listen to full albums for free because I don't understand how you all manage to listen to so many albums.


Spotify should have most of the albums, if not all of them.



Thanks Evan, I'll check it out. I wonder if it's available in Canada. I doubt it.

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

In Canada you've got Rdio but I don't know if it's free or not

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

Keith
Is there a website that you guys use to listen to full albums for free because I don't understand how you all manage to listen to so many albums.
Youtube has a lot of full albums, and if not as one video, there are people who post every song from an album as it's own video. Some have them in playlists.

PS I though it was "Arcade Fire" not "The Arcade Fire".

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

Well, for me it's the less legal way ^^

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

I have a premium account on Deezer a French spotify, and when they don't have the albums I use grooveshark. That covers evrything.

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

nassim (or anyone) - what's the best and safest p2p these days? i've been using soulseek for years but it's clearly not as good as it was 3-4 years ago when i could find almost anything on there.

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

Try Download any Stuff
It's direct downloading, safer than p2p

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

Henrik does not like chats about illegal way to find music so I'll pass (well, here at least) ^^

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

I'm pretty sure 100% of these or near 100% are available on monthly fee subscription services like Rhapsody anyway. No need for anything illegal.

I think I've heard all 100 of these. The only ones I had to listen to when they qualified were Blueprint (Awesome) and College Dropout (Way less overrated than his other work).

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

Nassim
Henrik does not like chats about illegal way to find music so I'll pass (well, here at least) ^^


Ooops sorry henrik

Anyway, at least in Europe you can get almost anything free and legally by streaming sites. For the rest you can spend a few Euros (that's what I'm gonna do with the new Melingo I think)

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

If I can have a suggestion about the rollout, I would like to see the "Haters" feature. It was an interesting read during the 70's poll.

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

Depeche Mode
If I can have a suggestion about the rollout, I would like to see the "Haters" feature. It was an interesting read during the 70's poll.

I was a fan of that section too so there will be the "Haters" feature in the results thread.

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

Awesome

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

Could we have the Excel sheet?

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

Petri, have you sent me the spreadsheet?

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

yes the spread-shit would be very helpful

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

Fever Ray won the tie-break. So let the voting begin (after Henrik has released the excel sheet).

Listyguy

PS I though it was "Arcade Fire" not "The Arcade Fire".

Yeah it should be Arcade Fire (although according to RYM the band is also known as The Arcade Fire) but please don't change the name of the band if it's in the excel sheet with the.

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

I have a question about Deerhunter's Microcastle/Weird Era Cont. Are we meant to rank the two albums as one unit? The two albums were released separately and as one double album. In the 2008 poll 9 people voted for Microcastle on its own and 6 voted for the double album. I'm just asking because I kinda like Microcastle but if I have to rank both Microcastle and Weird Era Cont. as 1 album it will probably end up at the bottom of my list.

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

Dan M
I have a question about Deerhunter's Microcastle/Weird Era Cont. Are we meant to rank the two albums as one unit? The two albums were released separately and as one double album. In the 2008 poll 9 people voted for Microcastle on its own and 6 voted for the double album. I'm just asking because I kinda like Microcastle but if I have to rank both Microcastle and Weird Era Cont. as 1 album it will probably end up at the bottom of my list.

Wow I didn't know they were released also separately (only digital though). I just thought voters didn't write the name of whole double album (like Speakerboxxx.../Love Below).
The problem is that if we count them as separate releases Microcastle is #13 and Microcastle/Weird Era Continued #14. RYM counts them as one (both are #4 of the year). I prefer also Microcastle to Weird Era. Still I think we should vote for the whole double album (because all the fysical releases (CD + Vinyl) contains both albums). What people who voted only for Microcastle think?

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

I have the same question about the 2nd CD of LCD Soundsystem, was it in the original release ?

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

Nassim
I have the same question about the 2nd CD of LCD Soundsystem, was it in the original release ?


Yes, it was in the original release.

As for the question of the Deerhunter album, I prefer to count "Microcastle" and "Weird Era Cont." as two different albums.

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

personally i ranked the 2 albums altogether. So it should have been decided in the first place. Now I guess we should keep the 2 albums together.

PS : I've always thought that Microcastle nwas fine while Weird era is a pile of rubbish

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

Petri

Albums
Amy Winehouse - Back to Black
Animal Collective - Strawberry Jam
Antony and the Johnsons - I Am a Bird Now
Arctic Monkeys - Whatever People Say I Am, That's What I'm Not
Bon Iver - For Emma, Forever Ago
Bright Eyes - I'm Wide Awake, It's Morning
Coldplay - A Rush of Blood to the Head
Coldplay - Parachutes
Girls - Album
Grizzly Bear - Veckatimest
Jay-Z - The Blueprint
Kanye West - The College Dropout
M.I.A. - Arular
MGMT - Oracular Spectacular
Modest Mouse - Good News for People Who Love Bad News
My Morning Jacket - Z
Nick Cave and The Bad Seeds - Abattoir Blues / The Lyre of Orpheus
OutKast - Speakerboxxx / The Love Below
Sufjan Stevens - Michigan
The Decemberists - The Crane Wife
The Dodos - Visiter
The Hold Steady - Stay Positive
The National - Alligator
The Postal Service - Give Up
The Shins - Chutes Too Narrow
The Shins - Oh, Inverted World
The Streets - Original Pirate Material
The Streets - A Grand Don't Come for Free
Tom Waits - Orphans: Brawlers, Bawlers & Bastards
U2 - All That You Can't Leave Behind
Vampire Weekend - Vampire Weekend



These are the albums I have not heard in their entirety. Except for Nick Cave, Tom Waits, Sufjan Stevens, Kanye, and maybe a couple of others, I don't think I'll get around to all of these with all of the 2011 listening I'm doing as EOY lists come out.

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

Ranking the top 50 songs is fairly easy, so is the bottom 20. But the other 30 give me headache, like a 30-way tie... songs I like but don't love.

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

Spreadsheet? Pretty please?

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

Stephan
Spreadsheet? Pretty please?

I sent it to you. Hopefully you can release it here (I can't). Thanks.

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

Henrik
Petri, have you sent me the spreadsheet?

Sorry I didn't have noticed this post. I sent the spreadsheet but apparently you didn't got it (from wippies mail so maybe it went straight to trash or I mistyped the adress). I sent the updated sheet to Stephan (The Arcade Fire -> Arcade Fire) so hopefully he can release the sheet.

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round
Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

Yeah thanks

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

Now when I searched for another email I found yours from Dec 1. Apologies Petri, and to everyone who waited for the spreadsheet.

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

Thanks Stephan and Henrik.

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

nicolas
Ok let's forget about that terrible year and this 100% indie top 10 and move on to the next stage (which may be at least 80 % indie).
You want my opinion ? That is just ridiculous.


I was wondering if this nicolas quote from the 2009 poll could be true and I've decided to check it out. So I took our album's list and first classified the album into one of the main 11 genres of AllMusic (although I completely disagree with that classification, if someone is interested in my own classification you can go to the 60s albums poll). I found that 99 of our Top 100 albums fitted only into three genres, Pop/Rock, Electronic and Rap (the other 1 was Amy Winehouse that AMG put inside the R&B genre).
Then I tried to narrow it down a little more adding the style (based on RYM ratings). Here it is the whole list:

Artist - Album - AMG - RYM
Amy Winehouse - Back to Black - R&B - Neo-Soul
Animal Collective - Strawberry Jam - Pop/Rock - Psychedelic Pop
Animal Collective - Merriweather Post Pavilion - Pop/Rock - Psychedelic Pop
Antony and the Johnsons - I Am a Bird Now - Pop/Rock - Chamber Pop
Arcade Fire - Funeral - Pop/Rock - Indie Rock
Arcade Fire - Neon Bible - Pop/Rock - Indie Rock
Arctic Monkeys - Whatever People Say I Am, That's What I'm Not - Pop/Rock - Indie Rock
Bat for Lashes - Two Suns - Pop/Rock - Art Pop
Beck - Sea Change - Pop/Rock - Singer/Songwriter
Belle and Sebastian - Dear Catastrophe Waitress - Pop/Rock - Indie Pop
Belle and Sebastian - The Life Pursuit - Pop/Rock - Indie Pop
Björk - Vespertine - Pop/Rock - Art Pop
Bob Dylan - Love and Theft - Pop/Rock - Singer/Songwriter
Bon Iver - For Emma, Forever Ago - Pop/Rock - Singer/Songwriter
Brian Wilson – Smile - Pop/Rock - Psychedelic Pop
Bright Eyes - I'm Wide Awake, It's Morning - Pop/Rock - Singer/Songwriter
Broken Social Scene - You Forgot It in People - Pop/Rock - Indie Rock
Burial - Untrue - Electronic - Dubstep
Coldplay - A Rush of Blood to the Head - Pop/Rock - Pop/Rock
Coldplay - Parachutes - Pop/Rock - Pop/Rock
Cut Copy - In Ghost Colours - Electronic - Electropop
Daft Punk - Discovery - Electronic - House
Deerhunter - Microcastle / Weird Era Continued - Pop/Rock - Indie Rock
Dirty Projectors - Bitte Orca - Pop/Rock - Indie Pop
Elliott Smith - From a Basement on the Hill - Pop/Rock - Singer/Songwriter
Eminem - The Marshall Mathers LP - Rap - Hardcore Hip Hop
Fever Ray - Fever Ray - Electronic - Electropop
Fleet Foxes - Fleet Foxes - Pop/Rock - Indie Folk
Franz Ferdinand - Franz Ferdinand - Pop/Rock - Indie Rock (Post Punk Revival)
Ghostface Killah - Fishscale - Rap - Hardcore Hip Hop
Girls - Album - Pop/Rock - Indie Rock
Gnarls Barkley - St. Elsewhere - Rap - Neo-Soul
Godspeed You! Black Emperor - Lift Your Skinny Fists Like Antennas to Heaven - Pop/Rock - Post Rock
Gorillaz - Demon Days - Pop/Rock - Trip Hop
Gorillaz - Gorillaz - Pop/Rock - Trip Hop
Grizzly Bear - Veckatimest - Pop/Rock - Indie Folk
Interpol - Turn On the Bright Lights - Pop/Rock - Indie Rock (Post Punk Revival)
Jay-Z - The Blueprint - Rap - Hardcore Hip Hop
Joanna Newsom - Ys - Pop/Rock - Singer/Songwriter
Kanye West - Late Registration - Rap - Pop Rap
Kanye West - The College Dropout - Rap - Pop Rap
LCD Soundsystem - LCD Soundsystem - Electronic - Indie Electronic
LCD Soundsystem - Sound of Silver - Electronic - Indie Electronic
M.I.A. - Arular - Electronic - Electropop
M.I.A. - Kala - Electronic - Electropop
M83 - Saturdays = Youth - Pop/Rock - Indie Pop
MGMT - Oracular Spectacular - Pop/Rock - Indie Electronic
Modest Mouse - The Moon & Antarctica - Pop/Rock - Indie Rock
Modest Mouse - Good News for People Who Love Bad News - Pop/Rock - Indie Rock
My Morning Jacket - Z - Pop/Rock - Indie Rock
Nick Cave and The Bad Seeds - Dig, Lazarus, Dig!!! - Pop/Rock - Alternative Rock
Nick Cave and The Bad Seeds - Abattoir Blues / The Lyre of Orpheus - Pop/Rock - Alternative Rock
OutKast - Speakerboxxx / The Love Below - Rap - Southern Hip Hop
OutKast - Stankonia - Rap - Southern Hip Hop
Panda Bear - Person Pitch - Pop/Rock - Psychedelic Pop
Phoenix - Wolfgang Amadeus Phoenix - Pop/Rock - Indie Pop
PJ Harvey - Stories From the City, Stories From the Sea - Pop/Rock - Alternative Rock
Portishead - Third - Pop/Rock - Experimental Rock
Primal Scream - Xtrmntr - Pop/Rock - Alternative Rock
Queens of the Stone Age - Songs for the Deaf - Pop/Rock - Stoner Rock
Radiohead - Kid A - Pop/Rock - Experimental Rock
Radiohead - In Rainbows - Pop/Rock - Alternative Rock
Radiohead - Amnesiac - Pop/Rock - Experimental Rock
Radiohead - Hail to the Thief - Pop/Rock - Alternative Rock
Sleater-Kinney - The Woods - Pop/Rock - Indie Rock
Sleater-Kinney - One Beat - Pop/Rock - Indie Rock
Spoon - Kill the Moonlight - Pop/Rock - Indie Rock
Sufjan Stevens - Illinois - Pop/Rock - Singer/Songwriter
Sufjan Stevens - Michigan - Pop/Rock - Singer/Songwriter
Super Furry Animals - Rings Around the World - Pop/Rock - Psychedelic Pop
The Antlers - Hospice - Pop/Rock - Indie Rock
The Avalanches - Since I Left You - Electronic - Plunderphonics
The Decemberists - The Crane Wife - Pop/Rock - Indie Pop
The Dodos - Visiter - Pop/Rock - Indie Rock
The Flaming Lips - Yoshimi Battles the Pink Robots - Pop/Rock - Psychedelic Pop
The Go! Team - Thunder, Lightning, Strike - Pop/Rock - Indie Rock
The Hold Steady - Stay Positive - Pop/Rock - Indie Rock
The Knife - Silent Shout - Electronic - Electropop
The National - Alligator - Pop/Rock - Indie Rock
The National - Boxer - Pop/Rock - Indie Rock
The Postal Service - Give Up - Pop/Rock - Indie Electronic
The Shins - Chutes Too Narrow - Pop/Rock - Indie Pop
The Shins - Oh, Inverted World - Pop/Rock - Indie Pop
The Streets - Original Pirate Material - Electronic - UK Garage
The Streets - A Grand Don't Come for Free - Electronic - UK Garage
The Strokes - Room on Fire - Pop/Rock - Indie Rock (Post Punk Revival)
The Strokes - Is This It - Pop/Rock - Indie Rock (Post Punk Revival)
The White Stripes - Elephant - Pop/Rock - Garage Rock Revival
The White Stripes - White Blood Cells - Pop/Rock - Garage Rock Revival
The Wrens - The Meadowlands - Pop/Rock - Indie Rock
The xx - XX - Pop/Rock - Indie Pop
Tom Waits - Orphans: Brawlers, Bawlers & Bastards - Pop/Rock - Singer/Songwriter
TV on the Radio - Dear Science - Pop/Rock - Indie Rock
TV on the Radio - Return to Cookie Mountain - Pop/Rock - Indie Rock
U2 - All That You Can't Leave Behind - Pop/Rock - Pop/Rock
Vampire Weekend - Vampire Weekend - Pop/Rock - Indie Rock
Wilco - Yankee Hotel Foxtrot - Pop/Rock - Alternative Rock
Wilco - A Ghost Is Born - Pop/Rock - Alternative Rock
Yeah Yeah Yeahs - Fever to Tell - Pop/Rock - Indie Rock (Post Punk Revival)
Yeah Yeah Yeahs - It's Blitz! - Pop/Rock - Indie Rock (Post Punk Revival)


So, sorting by genres:
79% Pop/Rock
12% Electronic
8% Rap
1% R&B

Globally much less variety than in the 50 and 60 polls, when we had a quite significant representation of jazz, blues, country and R&B. And in the 1900-1949 poll we had a even more significant proportion of classical, jazz, country/blues and world music (in that poll pop was minoritary). As we get closer in time the proportion of Pop/Rock increases, as we can see in our polls of 70s, 80s, 90s and 00s. But it's not only us, we simply follow the trend of music critics that tend to consider pop music above all genres in recent decades.

And what about Indie? Was nicolas right about that? Going to the style classificaction we can find:
28% Indie Rock (including Post Punk Revival)
16% Indie Pop (+ Psychedelic Pop + Art Pop)
15% Alternative Rock (+ Experimental Rock + Post Rock + Garage Pop Revival + Stoner Rock)
11% Indie Electronic (+ Electropop + Trip Hop)
10% Indie Folk (+ Alternative Singer/Songwriters + Chamber Pop)
5% Other Electronic Styles (UK Garage + Dubstep + House + Plunderphonics)

So, nicolas, not only 80% but even more, exactly 85%.
Note: as I can see, RYM use Alternative Rock instead Indie Rock for the "adult" artists playing non classic rock, for instance Radiohead, PJ Harvey or Nick Cave.
Also Indie Rock (and every "Indie" style) is a quite varied style with influences coming from the Pub Rock (The Hold Steady) to the Post-Punk (Interpol). As you can see "Indie" is used as a prefix for Rock, Pop, Electronic and even Folk, probably more in the sense of "cool" rather than "independent", moreover when some indie acts sell more records that some mainstream artists.

So what's left? What we have as non-indie?
7% Rap (Hardcore Hip Hop, Southern Hip Hop, Pop Rap)
3% Mainstream Pop/Rock (Coldplay, U2)
3% "Classic" Pop and Singer/Songwriters (Brian Wilson, Bob Dylan, Tom Waits)
2% Neo-Soul (Amy Winehouse, Gnarls Barkley)


So yes, nicolas, our Top 100 is maybe too Indie-oriented. But, are we diferent in that to the official critics? Let's see the Top 10 of every year on Acclaimed Music and we could see the differences:


2000:
Out:
Ryan Adams - Heartbreaker (#6 of 2000) - Pop/Rock - Singer/Songwriter
At the Drive-In - Relationship of Command (#9) - Pop/Rock - Post-Hardcore
D'Angelo - Voodoo (#10) - R&B - Neo-Soul
In: Lift Your Skinny Fists Like Antennas to Heaven (#11), Parachutes (#12), All That You Can't Leave Behind (#19)

2001:
Out:
System of a Down - Toxicity (#8 of 2001) - Pop/Rock - Alternative Metal
The Microphones - The Glow, Pt. 2 (#9) - Pop/Rock - Indie Folk
Fennesz - Endless Summer (#10) - Electronic - Glitch
In: Rings Around the World (#19), Gorillaz (#21), Oh, Inverted World (#25)

2002:
Out:
The Libertines - Up the Bracket (#7 of 2002) - Pop/Rock - Indie Rock
Sigur Rós - ( ) (#10) - Pop/Rock - Post-Rock
In: Kill the Moonlight (#12), One Beat (#19)

2003:
Out:
Dizzee Rascal - Boy in da Corner (#3 of 2003) - Electronic - Grime
Blur - Think Tank (#8 ) - Pop/Rock - Alternative Rock
Jay-Z - The Black Album (#9) - Rap - Hardcore Hip Hop
Cat Power - You Are Free (#10) - Pop/Rock - Singer/Songwriter
In: The Meadowlands (#14), Room on Fire (#16), Michigan (#18 ), Dear Catastrophe Waitress (#23)

2004:
Out:
Madvillain - Madvillainy (#4 of 2004) - Rap - Abstract Hip Hop
Green Day - American Idiot (#5) - Pop/Rock - Pop Punk
The Libertines - The Libertines (#9) - Pop/Rock - Indie Rock
In: From a Basement on the Hill (#15), Good News for People Who Love Bad News (#17), Thunder, Lightning, Strike (#25)

2005:
Out:
Bloc Party - Silent Alarm (#7 of 2005) - Pop/Rock - Indie Rock
In: The Woods (#12)

2006:
Out:
Cat Power - The Greatest (#6 of 2006) - Pop/Rock - Singer/Songwriter
Bob Dylan - Modern Times (#7) - Pop/Rock - Singer/Songwriter
Justin Timberlake - FutureSex/LoveSounds (#9) - Pop/Rock - Dance Pop
Hot Chip - The Warning (#10) - Pop/Rock - Indie Electronic
In: Fishcale (#14), The Life Pursuit (#18 ), The Crane Wife (#21), Orphans: Brawlers, Bawlers and Bastards (#25)

2007:
Out:
Battles - Mirrored (#10 of 2007) - Pop/Rock - Math Rock
In: Strawberry Jam (#12)

2008:
Out:
Elbow - The Seldom Seen Kid (#7 of 2008 ) - Pop/Rock - Indie Rock
Hercules and Love Affair - Hercules and Love Affair (#9) - Electronic - Electro Disco
Santogold - Santogold (#10) - Pop/Rock - Electropop
In: Saturdays = Youth (#14), Stay Positive (#17), Visiter (#31)

2009:
Out:
Fuck Buttons - Tarot Sport (#8 of 2009) - Pop/Rock - Neo-Psychedelia
The Flaming Lips - Embryonic (#9) - Pop/Rock - Neo-Psychedelia
Bill Callahan - Sometimes I Wish We Were an Eagle (#10) - Pop/Rock - Singer/Songwriter
In: Hospice (#11), Album (#15), Two Suns (#19)


First of all, we had 73 choices in common with the critics, I'm not sure if it's too much or too little. By the way the lowest album as ranked by the critics that got into our list was The Dodo's "Visiter" (#2239 of all time). And the opposite, the highest ranked album that failed to enter into our Top 100 was Dizzee Rascal's "Boy in da Corner" (#301)

We find in the critics list the same four genres with slightly less predominance of Pop/Rock (5 albums less), and two more Electronic albums, two more Rap albums and 1 more R&B album:
74% Pop/Rock
15% Electronic
9% Rap
2% R&B

About indians vs. cowboys, sorry, indie vs. mainstream:
20% Indie Rock (including Post Punk Revival)
19% Alternative Rock (+ Experimental Rock + Post Rock + Garage Pop Revival + Metal)
13% Indie Electronic (+ Electropop + Trip Hop)
13% Indie Folk (+ Alternative Singer/Songwriters + Chamber Pop)
11% Indie Pop (+ Psychedelic Pop + Art Pop)
8% Other Electronic Styles (UK Garage + Grime + Dubstep + House + Plunderphonics + Abstract Hip Hop)

Non-Indie sounds:
7% Rap (Hardcore Hip Hop + Southern Hip Hop + Pop Rap)
3% "Classic" Pop and Singer/Songwriters
3% Neo-Soul
3% Mainstream Pop/Rock (Coldplay, Green Day, Justin Timberlake)


So finally 84% of Indie sounds in the critics list, almost the same as ours!!
As a conclusion, nicolas was right, but in that we followed the trends of today. The critic acclaim goes to the sounds that define our times, not necessarily the most adventurous or the most musically interesting but the most commonly accepted as cool. Another trend I can see is that the critic acclaim and the popularity goes in divergent ways (the gap is getting wider and wider every new decade), barely only 5% of both lists were really mainstream. I mean if I ask to my daughter's friends about the names on the list I'm afraid they could only recognize Amy Winehouse, Coldplay, Eminem and U2, but I know (in fact I hope) this is different in UK or US.

Hope you find this interesting...

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

Wonderful work Honorio !!
so it is even worse than I expected !!
And yes those final lists are a common denominator, so they are very close to the AM lists which are themselves a common denominator as well !
The only thing I have to say is : please play the foreign game and your 90s lists will be full of different music

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

I keep asking myself about this indie/alternative domination here.

1. Is it because indie fans love lists more than say, rap or jazz or metal or world music fans ? That is not so true given the huge number of metal fans on RYM for instance

2. Is it because the vast majority of music critics like indie rock ?

3. Is it because AMers tend to prefer indie rock and thus bring mostly indie lists to this site ?

4. Is there a sociological explanation here ? Making lists (or being a critic) means you've got a certain level of instruction, that you're some kind of a nerd, that you are educated, white-collar? I don't know, I don't really understand UK or US society enough...

What's your opinion about that guys ? Should I ope a new thread ? No, let's talk about it here, we've got the great Honorio study to rely on.

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

nicolas

1. Is it because indie fans love lists more than say, rap or jazz or metal or world music fans ? That is not so true given the huge number of metal fans on RYM for instance.
Indie fans are the most nerdy (and pale). All the metal fans on RYM are angry teenagers with nothing better to do in their free time (I'm both of the above ).
nicolas

2. Is it because the vast majority of music critics like indie rock ?
Pitchfork. Enough said.
nicolas

3. Is it because AMers tend to prefer indie rock and thus bring mostly indie lists to this site ?
Again, pale + nerdy = indie fan.
nicolas

4. Is there a sociological explanation here ? Making lists (or being a critic) means you've got a certain level of instruction, that you're some kind of a nerd, that you are educated, white-collar? I don't know, I don't really understand UK or US society enough...
We once again go back to the pale nerd thing...

In all seriousness, I think that a large reason for the Indie boom in the 00's is because of the general decline of mainstream music (i.e. Taylor Swift, Justin Beiber, Lil Wayne). This gave critics two choices: make lists with these shitty songs, or go underground.

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

Listyguy
nicolas


2. Is it because the vast majority of music critics like indie rock ?
Pitchfork. Enough said.
nicolas

3. Is it because AMers tend to prefer indie rock and thus bring mostly indie lists to this site ?
Again, pale + nerdy = indie fan.
nicolas

4. Is there a sociological explanation here ? Making lists (or being a critic) means you've got a certain level of instruction, that you're some kind of a nerd, that you are educated, white-collar? I don't know, I don't really understand UK or US society enough...
We once again go back to the pale nerd thing...


The following is entirely in jest, so please do not take any of it seriously or directed at any of the wonderful folks who participate in these AM forums. I completely respect your taste and ability to articulate the reasons for your appreciation of the music you enjoy the most.

That said - I am not buying the pale nerd thing, any shade of nerd will do.

In my view, it's the nerd posing as a hipster. The poser cannot be considered hip if the poser admits to enjoying mainstream music or music that is considered lame by other hipsters. That's part of the reason why performers like John Mayer, Coldplay, and Matchbox 20 get so little love from either the critics or AMers. Hipsters and posers need to articulate their devotion to the acts the mainstream rejects (e.g., Velvet Underground). There is some tolerance for posers to admit enjoying acts that are not weird, just as long as those acts are at least a tiny bit quirky or maudlin and not too popular in the mainstream.

Just sayin'

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

This is a spotify list for most of the 2000s songs

What's missing? All of Arcade Fire. Heartbeats by The Knife. And for funny's sake, I put a classical cover of Reckoner by Radiohead.

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

Thanks Zorg! I was just going to ask if anyone had done that.

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

I don't see why there's this discussion on the predominance of "indie music" on the 2000's lists, when the discussion should be on the predominance of rock on all lists. After all, isn't indie just another permutation of rock? You can question why there isn't a whole lot of rap, jazz, or (insert non rock genre here) on the EOD 2000's lists, but then you have to ask yourself the same thing about every EOD list for every decade since the 1950's. Maybe the critics aren't "indie-centric", maybe they're just "rockist".

As for why the critics are choosing indie rock over mainstream rock, well, have you heard most mainstream rock??

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

nicolas
I keep asking myself about this indie/alternative domination here... What's your opinion about that guys ?

I know this topic is so 3 days ago, but I have a couple of things to add to it.

nicolas
4. Is there a sociological explanation here ? Making lists (or being a critic) means you've got a certain level of instruction, that you're some kind of a nerd, that you are educated, white-collar? I don't know, I don't really understand UK or US society enough...

I think here in the UK the critics who make lists (and the people who look at their lists) tend to be people who are unimpressed with the mainstream music they hear on the radio or on music television and as a result seek out music that is “better” than the mainstream but similar in genre. If the music on mainstream radio or on music charts was mostly, say, blues or Nubian music from Egypt, then music labels would sign more blues or Nubian bands, music publications and websites would focus on blues or Nubian music more than any other style, and critics lists would probably consist of blues and Nubian albums that are perceived to be of better quality than those in the charts.

But at the moment it is pop, rock, R&B and hip-hop you see in the charts (here in the UK at least), and although there don’t seem to be that many websites about non-mainstream R&B and hip-hop (maybe I’m just not looking hard enough) there are plenty of websites and blogs about indie rock and pop. Pitchfork and many other indie-oriented websites are hugely popular, and if you look at their target audience (teenagers and young adults) then certain sociological observations can be made...

Henry
The poser cannot be considered hip if the poser admits to enjoying mainstream music or music that is considered lame by other hipsters. That's part of the reason why performers like John Mayer, Coldplay, and Matchbox 20 get so little love from either the critics or AMers. Hipsters and posers need to articulate their devotion to the acts the mainstream rejects (e.g., Velvet Underground). There is some tolerance for posers to admit enjoying acts that are not weird, just as long as those acts are at least a tiny bit quirky or maudlin and not too popular in the mainstream.

Of course, not all young people who like indie are hipsters or posers, but if Pitchfork tells you that a band is cool and your friends dig them too, then you also want to be cool and want to fit in with your friends, so you start digging that band too (I like BillAdama’s comment in another thread about being different just like everyone else). I don’t think the effect that this target audience of teenagers and young adults have on the music industry (and on music criticism) can be underestimated. For the past 20 years (since Nirvana so accurately captured teenage angst on Nevermind?) music producers, studios, record labels and the press have focused on younger people as the main target audience. New indie bands or artists that get discovered each year tend to be young too, and they often want to create a sound similar to the bands they themselves like. So the kind of stuff the indie bands play dictates what will be noticed by indie labels and therefore the indie-oriented press (and therefore critics and people who seek good pop and rock music that aren’t mainstream), and I can’t see that changing anytime soon.

There are obviously a lot of logical fallacies / sweeping generalisations that can be pointed out about the comments I’ve made above. I mean, of course people who like indie music are not robots who blindly follow trends and only listen to indie music (but I do think that once you get into a specific style of music it becomes difficult to give other styles which are radically different a fair chance). Also, bands don’t always want to sound like other cool bands – there are genuinely creative indie acts out there who seem to have a vast knowledge of music of various genres and who draw on this knowledge for inspiration. And we have to give critics credit for often creating awareness of great indie acts whose music a lot of people on this forum enjoy.

Nick
I don't see why there's this discussion on the predominance of "indie music" on the 2000's lists, when the discussion should be on the predominance of rock on all lists. After all, isn't indie just another permutation of rock? You can question why there isn't a whole lot of rap, jazz, or (insert non rock genre here) on the EOD 2000's lists, but then you have to ask yourself the same thing about every EOD list for every decade since the 1950's. Maybe the critics aren't "indie-centric", maybe they're just "rockist".

Good point. When I came across this wonderful site a few years ago and looked at the top 3000 albums, my first thought was: wow, that’s a looooooot of rock! I wonder why that is. Is it because rock have always been seen as more exciting, better at evolving than other genres, the genre that most accurately connects with raw human emotion? Or maybe it’s just because music critics have always been predominantly male and therefore rock music feature more often on critics’ lists than other less masculine genres. But fortunately there are lists that aren’t only rock-oriented (whether indie or otherwise), and that’s one of the reasons why I love exploring people’s personal lists on this forum.

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

Honorio
Hope you find this interesting...


Are you kidding? Of course, this was interesting!

Are you sure that Art Pop belongs to Indie Pop? The last Kate Bush album is considered Art Pop, that's not really Indie Pop I would say?

Anyway, I have nothing against Indie Rock, so thank you for the very interesting stats!

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

Stephan

Back to top! Ten days left to vote. So far only six people have sent their lists (Tim E, Stephan, Greg, VanillaFire1000, John and Miguel).

Submit your list to popelton (at) gmail (dot) com.
Thanks

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

4 albums to go (including a 3 disc set by Tom Waits...)
My song list is ready, I can send it already if it helps compiling (though I would like to add a few comments)

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

Nassim
4 albums to go (including a 3 disc set by Tom Waits...)
My song list is ready, I can send it already if it helps compiling (though I would like to add a few comments)

No hurry. I just wanted to remind that people won't forget to vote. Comments are very welcome.

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

I'm sending everything today but without comments
There are 15 albums I haven't heard in all but I've heard at least 4 or 5 songs in each
I'm no masochist hahaha

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

41 of these remain unheard..doubt I'll be able to get to all of 'em.

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

Great comments on this thread (especially Dan M’s!!). Now, if you don’t mind, I would like to introduce a new point for debate (and mainly post some great pictures). The question is: are we sexists?

Comparing our songs list and the one from the critics I saw that we left out many songs from female artists. These were the songs on the critics Top 10 that were not in our list:
Madonna - Music (#8 of 2000)
Aaliyah - Try Again (#9 of 2000)
Hives, The - Hate to Say I Told You So (#10 of 2000)
Jay-Z - IZZO (H.O.V.A.) (#10 of 2001)
Rapture, The - House of Jealous Lovers (#2 of 2002)
Timberlake, Justin - Cry Me a River (#7 of 2002)
Spears, Britney - Toxic (#6 of 2003)
Kelis - Milkshake (#9 of 2003)
!!! - Me and Giuliani Down by the Schoolyard (A True Story) (#10 of 2003)
Clarkson, Kelly - Since U Been Gone (#3 of 2004)
Killers, The - Mr. Brightside (#6 of 2004)
M.I.A. - Galang (#9 of 2004)
Arctic Monkeys - I Bet You Look Good on the Dancefloor (#1 of 2005)
Madonna - Hung Up (#6 of 2005)
Game, The feat. 50 Cent - Hate It or Love It (#7 of 2005)
Three 6 Mafia - Stay Fly (#9 of 2005)
Franz Ferdinand - Do You Want To (#10 of 2005)
Hot Chip - Over and Over (#5 of 2006)
Hot Chip - And I Was a Boy From School (#7 of 2006)
Justice vs. Simian - We Are Your Friends (#9 of 2006)
Band of Horses - The Funeral (#10 of 2006)
Rihanna feat. Jay-Z - Umbrella (#3 of 2007)
Justice - D.A.N.C.E. (#6 of 2007)
Battles - Atlas (#7 of 2007)
Burial - Archangel (#8 of 2007)
Lil Wayne - A Milli (#5 of 2008)
Estelle feat. Kanye West - American Boy (#6 of 2008)
Hot Chip - Ready for the Floor (#7 of 2008)
Lady Gaga - Poker Face (#8 of 2008)
Kings of Leon - Sex on Fire (#10 of 2008)
Dirty Projectors - Stillness Is the Move (#4 of 2009)
Big Pink, The - Dominos (#9 of 2009)
Dizzee Rascal - Bonkers (#10 of 2009)

So, you see, we forgot a lot of girls, in alphabetical order:
- Aaliyah
- Britney Spears
- Estelle
- Kelis
- Kelly Clarkson
- Lady Gaga
- Madonna (this case was particularly unfair, with not one but two excellent songs out, “Music” and “Hung Up”)
- Rihanna

So, with Annie and Duffy getting into our list, there were 6 more female artists on the critics list.
By the way, the song higher ranked by the critics that did not enter our list was The Rapture's "House of Jealous Lovers". And the opposite, Kanye West's "Gone" and TV on the Radio's "Halfway Home" were not even bubbling under.

But, is it a question of bias agaisnt women or against mainstream artists? Maybe it's the second because there is a lot of female touch in our lists. Do you want to see them? So here they are, Otis Redding-style, our ladies in alphabetical order (if we add the ones from our album list too):



Amerie


Amy Winehouse


Annie


Beth Gibbons (Portishead)


Beyoncé


Björk


Deradoorian and Amber Coffman (Dirty Projectors)


Duffy


Feist, Emily Haines and Amy Millan (Broken Social Scene)


Joanna Newsom


Karen O (Yeah Yeah Yeahs)


Karin Dreijer (The Knife, Fever Ray)


Kylie Minogue


M.I.A.


Meg White (The White Stripes)


Missy Elliott


Natasha Khan (Bat for Lashes)


PJ Harvey


Regine Cassagne and Sarah Neufeld (Arcade Fire)


Robyn


Romy Madley-Croft and Baria Qureshi (The xx)


Santigold


Sleater-Kinney (Corin Tucker, Carrie Brownstein and Janet Weiss)

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

All of a sudden I'm an Amerie fan.

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

I noticed that the youtube link of Work It wasn't the right version of the song. Here's the original.
Missy Elliott - Work It

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

Any chance of extending the date to January 7 or something like that?

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

Agree with sonofsamiam. I got my lists already done but I would like more time to write some comments.
Merry Christmas everyone.

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

Oh yeah, I haven't sent my list yet have I?

I'll take advantage of this 4 day weekend and do so.

Edit: And I just realized there is one album I haven't heard, Dear Catastrophe Waitress.

Anotheredit: I think it's more that indie critics don't pay attention to as much music by female artists, because they don't fit the one personality type they look for.

And most of the women the mainstream critics like are the ones marketed by sex appeal.

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

I would like to third the notion to extend the deadline a week.
And it's so obvious these women musicians aren't scouted for their talent by just watching the music videos.

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

I just listened to the two I hadn't heard yet (Dear Catastrophe Waitress and From A Basement On A Hill). From A Basement surprised me a lot. I think I like it better than his 'Big two'.

@Petri

Is it okay to send you my vote in plaintext or is it easier for you if I send it in an Excel file?

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

sonofsamiam

Any chance of extending the date to January 7 or something like that?

If extended voting time means more voters (and comments) I think it's worth it. So the dead line is 8th of January (12 PM Forum time - or actually Monday morning when I wake up).
If you have your lists already done don't hesitate to submit it earlier. You can send the comments later. I have already the presentation (pictures, links, layout) ready for release so the biggest work is to add fans and haters section + of course the rankings.

BillAdama

Is it okay to send you my vote in plaintext or is it easier for you if I send it in an Excel file?

It's easier for me if you send an Excel (or StarOffice, OpenOffice) file but if you don't have excel you can send plaintext (then please use the same band names than I in top of the page - I mean if it's The Postal Service don't vote for Postal Service. (Arcade Fire is an exception))
And again here's the link to Spreadsheet

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

Honorio
The question is: are we sexists?...
But, is it a question of bias agaisnt women or against mainstream artists? Maybe it's the second because there is a lot of female touch in our lists.

If you look at the pictures you posted it sure looks like AMers prefer their ladies on the pretty side. But maybe that says more about the music industry’s superficial requirement that female artists have sex appeal, which doesn’t apply to male artists to the same extent.

Interesping post, Honorio. Although I think the comparatively small amount of female artists on critics’ lists (and on our own forum lists) probably has more to do with bias against mainstream artists than against women, I do think there are a few changes that could be made in music criticism to ensure that male and female artists are judged on the same terms: music journalists could place less emphasis on how much male producers/collaborators contribute to the output of female artists (in an interview with Pitchfork, M.I.A. drew attention to this when she complained that the media exaggerated producer Diplo’s contribution to Arular); critics could also stop comparing women with only women, and men with only men (if you read reviews about Laura Marling’s latest album, nearly all of them mention how the album is influenced by Joni Mitchell, but no one mentions Nick Drake or Leonard Cohen, whose influences are actually more apparent to my ears); and more women should become critics to spread awareness of overlooked female artists! I sometimes wish all the women critics would form an association and release a consensus list – it would be interesting to see how that compares with other lists.

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

Exactly. It isn't us that's sexist, it's the mechanisms that expose us to music that are sexist.

The great music from females I've heard this year is great at projecting complexity of emotion, but it's not as noisy or experimental as this year's crop of Pfork-bait. (Except for PJ Harvey and St Vincent, who got their share of critical acclaim).

Critics just happen to be obsessed with the kind of music males make more often than females. So these critics are putting all the music by males at the top of their lists, and then a lot of voters did their listening from the top of the list.

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

I sent you my album list.
Thank you.

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

Do we have to listen to the entire album in order to rank it? I've listened to about thirty minutes of Tom Waits' album, and I don't have much interest in continuing.

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

Evan
Do we have to listen to the entire album in order to rank it? I've listened to about thirty minutes of Tom Waits' album, and I don't have much interest in continuing.


Well I would say it is better to listen to them in full, but there are 4 or 5 albums I stopped before the end because I arrived at work and did not feel the need to listen after that.
And one album I did not succeed to listen entirely because it hurted my ears ^^

The 3 Tom Waits CDs are quite different from one another, so it might be good to listen to at least half of each, you could be surprised (I don't like it much either though...)

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

Happy new year everyone!

Still one week to vote for.
So far I've got albums lists from

Tim E, Greg, Stephan, VanillaFire1000, John, Miguel, nicolas, Henry, Brad, Nassim, BillAdama, SuperFurry, Romain, Harold Wexler, Evan, Nick, Michel, Jonah, Chris K and Jackson

and
songs lists from

Greg, Stephan, VanillaFire1000, John, Miguel, nicolas, Depeche Mode, Henry, Nassim, Harold Wexler, Nick, Evan, Romain, Michel, Chris K and Jackson
(+ I have added my own lists to both lists)

So 21 album lists and 17 song lists so far. Many regulars haven't send their lists yet so I hope that the number of voters will be around 40 (or at least +30) in both categories.

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

Evan
Do we have to listen to the entire album in order to rank it? I've listened to about thirty minutes of Tom Waits' album, and I don't have much interest in continuing.


of course not: there are much better things to do in life than listening to albums we don't like When listening to records is not a pleasure anymore, then total nerdness is not very far

But I've heard at least 4/5 songs of the 15 albums I haven't heard entirely (yes, even Gorillaz or Postal Service)

PS Tom Waits is in my top 5

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

Still hoping to get my lists in, but things have been very crazy for me. I just moved with my family from NJ up to Amherst, Massachusetts (birthplace of Dinosaur Jr! Not-quite birthplace of the Pixies!). Still living out of boxes right now...

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

After previous list of voters only Honorio, sonofsamiam, Gillingham and Dan M have send their lists.
I have also send few requests to people who have something obscurities on their lists (two #33's and no something else rank etc.). So please respond to my mail (only Jonah have responded thanks for that).
I won't be online on Monday (9th of January) so you get one more extra day to vote.

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

I'll have my list in Friday.

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

Unfortunately I will not be able to submit a list, but I would like to give a shout-out to Johnny Cash, and hoping to see "Hurt" in the top 10.

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

Two days to vote for!
Hopefully many will still send his/her lists.

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

Voting is now closed. I will add the lists (+ comments) that came in last two days (pretty many).
The results thread will be open after that (maybe tonight but probably tomorrow).
I'll inform later today.
Thanks for voting!

Re: Forum Poll: The Best Albums and Songs of 00's - FINAL Round

Following AMers voted for ALBUMS. Please reply quickly if you name isn't in the list and you voted for ALBUMS. (I have still work to do before starting the show).

Beefsupreme
BillAdama
Brad
Chris
Chris K
Dan M
Evan
Gillingham
Greg
Harold Wexler
Henrik
Henry
Honorio
Jackson
John
Jonah
Jonathon
Michel
Midaso
Miguel
Moonbeam
Nassim
Nick
nicolas
Petri
Rocky Raccoon
Romain
Schwah
Slick
sonofsamiam
Stephan
SuperFurry
Tim E
VanillaFire1000
Zorg