Put a Pin on the Map View my Forum Guestmap
Free Guestmaps by Bravenet.com

The Old Acclaimed Music Forum

Go to the NEW FORUM

Music, music, music...
Start a New Topic 
Author
Comment
View Entire Thread
Lists For the Next Update

Just as an FYI, for those who may be interested in which lists will be added. Per Henrik in the other forum, these look to be the lists to be added for the upcoming update:

* All decade-end lists in the 2000s spreadsheet
* Pitchfork (USA) - The Pitchfork 500 (2008)
* Pitchfork (USA): Top 200 Tracks of the 1990s
* The Guardian (UK) - 1000 Songs Everyone Must Hear (2009)
* Hervé Bourhis (France): Le Petit Livre Rock" (The Little Rock Book: "The Juke Box! Singles, 1950-2009
* Blender (USA) - The Greatest Songs Ever (the few songs that remained to be added)
* The Popdose 100: Favorite Singles of the Last 50 Years (2010)
* Rolling Stone (USA) - 40 Songs That Changed the World (2007)
* Slant: Best Singles of the 90s (2011)
* Mojo (UK): 80 From the 80s: Our Fave 45s For Each Year, 1980-1989 (2007)
* Q (UK): The 10 Most Perfect Song Ever (2007)
* STM Entertainment (Australia) - 50 Best Songs- Ever (2007)
* Treble: Top 100 Singles of the '90s (2007)
* Treble: The Top 200 Songs of the 80s (2011)
* Le Nouvel Observateur (France) - Top 100 French Singles from 1951-1991 (1991)
* VOLUME (France) - 200 Records that Changed the World, 2008 (38 songs)
* New Musical Express (UK) - Classic Singles
* Time Magazine (USA): A Song A Decade (1950s-1990s)
* Spin (USA): Nominations For the Best Songs of the Last 25 Years (2010)
* Rock and Roll Hall of Fame (USA): New additions to The Songs That Shaped Rock

I believe that pretty much covers it.

Re: Some help before the next update

Sorry for that mistake-The Swell Season seem to be not from Northern Ireland, but from Ireland in general.

Re: Lists For the Next Update

What about Rolling Stone's 100 Greatest Beatles Songs (2010)?

Re: Lists For the Next Update

I had forgotten about the list from Popdose, and when I look at it again I realize it's a tricky one as they only included singles that made the Billboard hot 100, everything else should be blanked if done correctly so I think I'll leave that one for now.

I will include Rolling Stone's Beatles list, as well as their Bob Dylan list and the Wilco list from Paste.

Re: Lists For the Next Update

Yah, Popdose limiting that list to Hot 100 entries does leave out a heap of tracks. First the low amount of females on the list and now this.

Re: Lists For the Next Update

Am I correct in assuming that year-end songs lists from 2008 and 2009 will also be included?

Re: Lists For the Next Update

Seanywack
Am I correct in assuming that year-end songs lists from 2008 and 2009 will also be included?
Absolutely.

Oops...

I forgot to include 2008-2009 songs lists in the list above.

So, an update:

* All decade-end lists in the 2000s spreadsheet
* Year-end lists (2008, 2009)
* Pitchfork (USA) - The Pitchfork 500 (2008)
* Pitchfork (USA): Top 200 Tracks of the 1990s
* The Guardian (UK) - 1000 Songs Everyone Must Hear (2009)
* Hervé Bourhis (France): Le Petit Livre Rock" (The Little Rock Book: "The Juke Box! Singles, 1950-2009
* Blender (USA) - The Greatest Songs Ever (the few songs that remained to be added)
* Rolling Stone (USA) - 40 Songs That Changed the World (2007)
* Slant: Best Singles of the 90s (2011)
* Mojo (UK): 80 From the 80s: Our Fave 45s For Each Year, 1980-1989 (2007)
* Q (UK): The 10 Most Perfect Song Ever (2007)
* STM Entertainment (Australia) - 50 Best Songs- Ever (2007)
* Treble: Top 100 Singles of the '90s (2007)
* Treble: The Top 200 Songs of the 80s (2011)
* Le Nouvel Observateur (France) - Top 100 French Singles from 1951-1991 (1991)
* VOLUME (France) - 200 Records that Changed the World, 2008 (38 songs)
* New Musical Express (UK) - Classic Singles
* Time Magazine (USA): A Song A Decade (1950s-1990s)
* Spin (USA): Nominations For the Best Songs of the Last 25 Years (2010)
* Rock and Roll Hall of Fame (USA): New additions to The Songs That Shaped Rock
* Rolling Stone(USA): 100 Greatest Beatles Songs (2010)
* Rolling Stone (USA): 70 Greatest Bob Dylan Songs (2011)
* Paste (USA): The 30 Best Wilco Songs (2011)

Does that cover everything? (You didn't mention 2010 songs lists, so I gather they're for a later date).

Re: Oops...

Is this list eligible for the next update?
http://www.nme.com/list/150-best-tracks-of-the-past-15-years/248648

My Guess...

is that it came too late (like that wonderful VH1 list).

Re: My Guess...

The new lists from NME and VH1 will be included! I planned to add them as a surprise but I can't keep my mouth shut.

I have been working on an "anti-commercial" weighting factor and it was perfect to add the VH1 list as a test of this. I will use a method (that I will never reveal!) that would give this list a zero weight. With an average "anti-commercial" weight of 1, it turned out that the new VH1 list could be deemed eligible but with the far lowest weight of all lists, 0.09. Before I added the VH1 list, the Grammy nominations had the lowest "anti-commercial" weight with 0.31. The big chunk of lists have a weight close to 1, so this won't make as big difference to the AM list as it might sound. Fans of hit list music should not be too disappointed about the coming update.

JR, I haven't had the time to check if your list above is complete. Maybe I will get to it tonight.

Re: My Guess...

You're a regular Nelson Mandela, Henrik, holding out like that. That's a nice surprise. And, "anti-commercial" weight- makes sense to me.

As a reminder- as you mentioned before, you will be removing the Igauna songs listings for this update?

I have redone the list again for easy reference, including the NME and VH1 lists.

* All decade-end lists in the 2000s spreadsheet
* Year-end lists (2008, 2009)
* Blender (USA) - The Greatest Songs Ever (the few songs that remained to be added)
* Paste (USA) - The 30 Best Wilco Songs (2011)
* Pitchfork (USA) - The Pitchfork 500 (200
* Pitchfork (USA) - Top 200 Tracks of the 1990s
* Rock and Roll Hall of Fame (USA)- New additions to The Songs That Shaped Rock
* Rolling Stone (USA) - 40 Songs That Changed the World (2007)
* Rolling Stone(USA) - 100 Greatest Beatles Songs (2010)
* Rolling Stone (USA) - 70 Greatest Bob Dylan Songs (2011)
* Slant (USA) - Best Singles of the 90s (2011)
* Spin (USA) - Nominations For the Best Songs of the Last 25 Years (2010)
* Time Magazine (USA) - A Song A Decade (1950s-1990s)
* Treble (USA) - Top 100 Singles of the '90s (2007)
* Treble (USA) - The Top 200 Songs of the 80s (2011)
* VH1 (USA) - 100 Greatest Songs of the 00s (2011)
* Hervé Bourhis (France): Le Petit Livre Rock" (The Little Rock Book - "The Juke Box! Singles, 1950-2009
* Le Nouvel Observateur (France) - Top 100 French Singles from 1951-1991 (1991)
* VOLUME (France) - 200 Records that Changed the World, 2008 (38 songs)
* The Guardian (UK) - 1000 Songs Everyone Must Hear (2009)
* Mojo (UK) - 80 From the 80s: Our Fave 45s For Each Year, 1980-1989 (2007)
* New Musical Express (UK) - Classic Singles
* New Musical Express (UK) - 150 Best Tracks of the Past 15 Years (2011)
* Q (UK) - The 10 Most Perfect Song Ever (2007)
* STM Entertainment (Australia) - 50 Best Songs- Ever (2007)

Re: My Guess...

So maybe this new TIME list will be able to make it as well?

http://entertainment.time.com/2011/10/24/the-all-time-100-songs/?hpt=hp_c2#tightrope-janelle-monae-featuring-big-boi

Janelle Monaé ft. Big Boi - Tightrope
Missy Ellliot - Get Ur Freak On
OutKast - Hey Ya!
Jay-Z - 99 Problems
Arcade Fire - Wake Up
Kanye West ft. Jamie Foxx - Gold Digger
Lil' Wayne - Georgia...Bush
LCD Soundsystem - All My Friends
Beyonce - Single Ladies (Put a Ring on It)
Lady Gaga - Bad Romance
Sinead O'Conner - Nothing Compared 2 U
Pet Shop Boys - Being Boring
Nirvana - Smells Like Teen Spirit
Richard Thompson - 1952 Vincent Black Lightning
Wu-Tang Clan - C.R.E.A.M.
A Tribe Called Quest - Scenario
The Notorious B.I.G. - Juicy
2Pac ft. Dr. Dre - California Love [Remix]
Pulp - Common People
Radiohead - Paranoid Android
Joy Division - Love Will Tear Us Apart
George Jones - He Stopped Loving Her Today
Michael Jackson - Billie Jean
New Order - Blue Monday
Prince - Kiss
Metallica - Master of Puppets
R.E.M. - It’s the End of the World as We Know It (And I Feel Fine)
Lucinda Williams - Pineola
Public Enemy - Fight the Power
Madonna - Borderline
The Melodians - Rivers of Babylon
James Brown - Get Up (I Feel like Being a) Sex Machine
Led Zeppelin - Immigrant Song
Black Sabbath - Iron Man
Joni Mitchell - A Case of You
The Who - Baba O'Riley
Stevie Wonder - Superstition
Dolly Parton - Jolene
Big Star - September Gurls
Bonnie Raitt - Angel from Montgomery
Fela Kuti - Zombie
Bruce Springsteen - Thunder Road
Queen - Bohemian Rhapsody
Donna Summer - I Feel Love
Bee-Gees - Stayin' Alive
David Bowie - 'Heroes'
Ramones - I Wanna Be Sedated
Fleetwood Mac - Dreams
Peter Tosh - Equal Rights
Funkadelic - One Nation Under a Groove
Velvet Underground - Rock & Roll
Loretta Lynn - Coal Miner’s Daughter
Bob Dylan - Subterranean Homesick Blues
Patsy Cline - Crazy
Roy Orbison - Crying
The Ronettes - Be My Baby
The Beatles - I Wanna Hold Your Hand
Astrud Gilberto - The Girl from Ipanema
The Supremes - Where Did Our Love Go?
The Beach Boys - God Only Knows
Aretha Franklin - I Never Loved A Man (The Way I Love You)
Marvin Gaye - I Heard It Through the Grapevine
The Band - The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down
Big Mama Thorton - Ball ‘n’ Chain
Jackson 5 - I Want You Back
The Rolling Stones - Gimme Shelter
Crosby, Stills and Nash - Suite: Judy Blue Eyes
Otis Redding - I’ve Been Loving You Too Long (To Stop Now)
Johnny Cash - Folsom Prison Blues
Les Paul & Mary Ford - How High The Moon
Kitty Wells - It Wasn’t God Who Made Honky Tonk Angels
Elvis Presley - Jailhouse Rock
Odetta - Take This Hammer
Little Richard - Tutti Frutti
Frank Sinatra - I’ve Got You Under My Skin
Buddy Holly - That’ll Be the Day
Chuck Berry - Johnny B. Goode
Ray Charles - What I'd Say
Woody Guthrie - This Land Is Your Land
Lena Horne - Stormy Weather
The Andrews Sisters - Boogie Woogie Bugle Boy
Spike Jones - Der Fuehrer’s Face
Bing Crosby - White Christmas
Betty Hutton - It Had to Be You
Mahalia Jackson - Move On Up a Little Higher
Hank Williams - Cold, Cold Heart
Ella Fitzgerald - Baby It’s Cold Outside
Doris Day - Sentimental Journey
Ethel Merman - I Got Rhythm
Cab Calloway - Minnie The Moocher
Duke Ellington - It Dont Mean A Thing (If It Aint Got That Swing)
Louie Armstrong - Star Dust
Fred Astaire - Cheek to Cheek
Ray Heatherton - Where or When
Judy Garland - Over the Rainbow
Billie Holiday - Strange Fruit
Al Jolson - My Mammy
Bessie Smith - St. Louis Blues
Paul Robeson - Ol' Man River
The Carter Family - Wildwood Flower

Re: My Guess...

Wow VanillaFire, I really like eclectic lists like that! I'll see what I can do...

Re: My Guess...

JR
You're a regular Nelson Mandela, Henrik, holding out like that. That's a nice surprise. And, "anti-commercial" weight- makes sense to me.

As a reminder- as you mentioned before, you will be removing the Igauna songs listings for this update?

I have redone the list again for easy reference, including the NME and VH1 lists.

* All decade-end lists in the 2000s spreadsheet
* Year-end lists (2008, 2009)
* Blender (USA) - The Greatest Songs Ever (the few songs that remained to be added)
* Paste (USA) - The 30 Best Wilco Songs (2011)
* Pitchfork (USA) - The Pitchfork 500 (200
* Pitchfork (USA) - Top 200 Tracks of the 1990s
* Rock and Roll Hall of Fame (USA)- New additions to The Songs That Shaped Rock
* Rolling Stone (USA) - 40 Songs That Changed the World (2007)
* Rolling Stone(USA) - 100 Greatest Beatles Songs (2010)
* Rolling Stone (USA) - 70 Greatest Bob Dylan Songs (2011)
* Slant (USA) - Best Singles of the 90s (2011)
* Spin (USA) - Nominations For the Best Songs of the Last 25 Years (2010)
* Time Magazine (USA) - A Song A Decade (1950s-1990s)
* Treble (USA) - Top 100 Singles of the '90s (2007)
* Treble (USA) - The Top 200 Songs of the 80s (2011)
* VH1 (USA) - 100 Greatest Songs of the 00s (2011)
* Hervé Bourhis (France): Le Petit Livre Rock" (The Little Rock Book - "The Juke Box! Singles, 1950-2009
* Le Nouvel Observateur (France) - Top 100 French Singles from 1951-1991 (1991)
* VOLUME (France) - 200 Records that Changed the World, 2008 (38 songs)
* The Guardian (UK) - 1000 Songs Everyone Must Hear (2009)
* Mojo (UK) - 80 From the 80s: Our Fave 45s For Each Year, 1980-1989 (2007)
* New Musical Express (UK) - Classic Singles
* New Musical Express (UK) - 150 Best Tracks of the Past 15 Years (2011)
* Q (UK) - The 10 Most Perfect Song Ever (2007)
* STM Entertainment (Australia) - 50 Best Songs- Ever (2007)


And what about "Les 100 meilleurs albums de rock (2010)" by Nicolas Dupuy for example and other all time list ?
Good luck for the next update.

Re: My Guess...

Romain
And what about "Les 100 meilleurs albums de rock (2010)" by Nicolas Dupuy for example and other all time list ?
Good luck for the next update.


As has been previously noted, the coming update will be songs-only, to get the songs list complete through 2009 to match the albums list. NEXT year's update will cover both all-time lists, and will hopefully incorporate the albums and songs from both 2010 and 2011.

Re: My Guess...

Thanks you for the answer. I just want to say I found this site better and better year after years.

Re: My Guess...

What concerns me about the inclusion of a system that weights the lists is that, at least in my mind, the weighting implies that one list is more "valid" than another. Maybe I'm not looking at this the right way, and if so, hopefully someone can correct me.

Re: My Guess...

Matt Schroeder
What concerns me about the inclusion of a system that weights the lists is that, at least in my mind, the weighting implies that one list is more "valid" than another. Maybe I'm not looking at this the right way, and if so, hopefully someone can correct me.
Matt, your question is valid. Seriously, I was waiting for someone come back on this, but perhaps not everyone reads this thread.

My standpoint is this: Acclaimed Music and sales charts both rank music from top to bottom, but from different angles (critical judgment and popularity). While the sales chart are hugely dependent on what's "available", the ideal situation for the critical judgment would be if every song or album would have - quality aside - the same chance to be judged. However, as it is inevitable for the critics and music industry workers that availability plays a role in the makings of their lists, I use a weighting factor to get a little bit closer to the ideal situation. Nevertheless, less reachable music will always be underestimated.

Re: My Guess...

Something like VH1's list stands out because there is such a focus on mainstream, commercial, hit music, with the very rare non-hit tossed in. That's fine and dandy, but when it includes acts that are obvious critically challenged acts, then I definitely see no issue with something like that having less weight than another list.

How's the update coming along, Henrik?

Re: My Guess...

JR
How's the update coming along, Henrik?
I still have to create the song pages, with the links to every critics list that a song has appeared on. If someone would post a weblink to each all-time list in JR's list above, this will go a little faster.

Re: My Guess...

At your service. :)

If the links from the original source are available, I put those. If not, I used the forum link or Rocklist. For something like the Bob Dylan list, RS has a link to it, but it's not the ranked list- so I used the forum link. I don't believe the Blender site has a link for the Greatest Song Ever feature (and the link in the Critics Lists section no longer works).

At the bottom, I added the TIME list (in case you include it in this update).

I believe the Le Nouvel Observateur link is for the pertinent list, but do double check.

* Blender (USA) - The Greatest Songs Ever, One Song Added Every Other Month
??????

* Paste (USA) - The 30 Best Wilco Songs (2011)
http://www.pastemagazine.com/blogs/lists/2011/04/the-30-best-wilco-songs.html

* Pitchfork (USA) - The Pitchfork 500 (2008)
http://www.rocklistmusic.co.uk/steveparker/Pitchfork.htm

* Pitchfork (USA) - Top 200 Tracks of the 1990s
http://pitchfork.com/features/staff-lists/7854-the-top-200-tracks-of-the-1990s-200-151/

* Rock and Roll Hall of Fame (USA)- New additions to The Songs That Shaped Rock
http://rockhall.com/exhibits/one-hit-wonders-songs-that-shaped-rock-and-roll/

* Rolling Stone (USA) - 40 Songs That Changed the World (2007)
Original link not working; I believe this appeared in the magazine and the full list can be found at various sites

* Rolling Stone(USA) - 100 Greatest Beatles Songs (2010)
http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/rolling-stone-presents-the-100-greatest-beatles-songs-20110919

* Rolling Stone (USA) - 70 Greatest Bob Dylan Songs (2011)
http://pub37.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=3172289350&frmid=7238&msgid=1156497&cmd=show

* Slant (USA) - Best Singles of the 90s (2011)
http://www.slantmagazine.com/music/feature/best-singles-of-the-90s/247

* Spin (USA) - Nominations For the Best Songs of the Last 25 Years (2010)
http://pub37.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=3172289350&frmid=7238&msgid=1069074&cmd=show

* Time Magazine (USA) - A Song A Decade (1950s-1990s)
http://pub37.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=3172289350&frmid=10&msgid=673072&cmd=show

* Treble (USA) - Top 100 Singles of the '90s (2007)
http://treblezine.com/features/118.html

* Treble (USA) - The Top 200 Songs of the 80s (2011)
http://treblezine.com/features/267.html

* VH1 (USA) - 100 Greatest Songs of the 00s (2011)
http://blog.vh1.com/2011-09-29/the-100-greatest-songs-of-00s-complete-list/

* Hervé Bourhis (France): Le Petit Livre Rock" (The Little Rock Book - "The Juke Box! Singles, 1950-2009
http://pub37.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=3172289350&frmid=7238&msgid=1024687&cmd=show

* Le Nouvel Observateur (France) - Top 100 French Singles from 1951-1991 (1991)
http://pub37.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=3172289350&frmid=10&msgid=761183&cmd=show

* VOLUME (France) - 200 Records that Changed the World, 2008 (38 songs)
http://pub37.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=3172289350&frmid=0&msgid=878084

* The Guardian (UK) - 1000 Songs Everyone Must Hear (2009)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/series/1000-songs-everyone-must-hear

* Mojo (UK) - 80 From the 80s: Our Fave 45s For Each Year, 1980-1989 (2007)
http://www.rocklistmusic.co.uk/mojo.html#Mojo%20%E2%80%93%2080%20From%20The%2080%E2%80%99s

* New Musical Express (UK) - Classic Singles
http://www.rocklistmusic.co.uk/nme_writers.htm#Classic%20Albums%20&%20Singles

* New Musical Express (UK) - 150 Best Tracks of the Past 15 Years (2011)
http://www.nme.com/list/150-best-tracks-of-the-past-15-years/248648/page/1

* Q (UK) - The 10 Most Perfect Song Ever (2007)
http://pub37.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=3172289350&frmid=10&msgid=752155&cmd=show

* STM Entertainment (Australia) - 50 Best Songs- Ever (2007)
http://www.perthnow.com.au/entertainment/best-50-songs-ever/story-e6frg3i3-1111114161557

* TIME (USA) - All-TIME 100 Songs (2011)
http://entertainment.time.com/2011/10/24/the-all-time-100-songs/

Re: My Guess...

Thanks JR!

Re: My Guess...

Henrik
Matt Schroeder
What concerns me about the inclusion of a system that weights the lists is that, at least in my mind, the weighting implies that one list is more "valid" than another. Maybe I'm not looking at this the right way, and if so, hopefully someone can correct me.
Matt, your question is valid. Seriously, I was waiting for someone come back on this, but perhaps not everyone reads this thread.

My standpoint is this: Acclaimed Music and sales charts both rank music from top to bottom, but from different angles (critical judgment and popularity). While the sales chart are hugely dependent on what's "available", the ideal situation for the critical judgment would be if every song or album would have - quality aside - the same chance to be judged. However, as it is inevitable for the critics and music industry workers that availability plays a role in the makings of their lists, I use a weighting factor to get a little bit closer to the ideal situation. Nevertheless, less reachable music will always be underestimated.


The obvious difficulty in this is that there is no way to assess what critics have and have not heard. I'd say that there are definitely a number of indie "classics" that never sold much, but have been heard by nearly all critics. You'd be hard-pressed to find a critic these days who hasn't heard, say, "Tunnels" by Arcade Fire, despite how poorly it may have sold. And what about songs popular on radio that we're singles, like "Stairway to Heaven"?

Re: My Guess...

"Stairway to Heaven" was never released as a commercial single when it was out, though, and never appeared on a music chart (at least in the USA). :)

I just think that in the case of something like the Grammys, its methods of of coming up with nominations in the major categories has been VERY geared toward the commercial and popular, safe, middle-of-the-road choices (especially leading up to the late 90s and even past that). And the VH1 list obviously is very hits-driven- the majority of critics' lists are not. many feature tracks that were big hits, but a lot of times it has as many, if not more, tracks that were not big hits on the charts.

Re: My Guess...

Henrik
Matt Schroeder
What concerns me about the inclusion of a system that weights the lists is that, at least in my mind, the weighting implies that one list is more "valid" than another. Maybe I'm not looking at this the right way, and if so, hopefully someone can correct me.
Matt, your question is valid. Seriously, I was waiting for someone come back on this, but perhaps not everyone reads this thread.

My standpoint is this: Acclaimed Music and sales charts both rank music from top to bottom, but from different angles (critical judgment and popularity). While the sales chart are hugely dependent on what's "available", the ideal situation for the critical judgment would be if every song or album would have - quality aside - the same chance to be judged. However, as it is inevitable for the critics and music industry workers that availability plays a role in the makings of their lists, I use a weighting factor to get a little bit closer to the ideal situation. Nevertheless, less reachable music will always be underestimated.


So could it be argued that this new weighting system is based more on how inclusive the list appears to be? Or put another way, a list that includes more "unknown" songs/albums would have a higher weight than a list that includes little to no "unknown" songs/albums? And if that's the case, what is the criteria for if something is "known" or "unknown"?

Basically, here's what's going through my mind... The predominant argument seems to be that VH1's lists are not an accurate representation of music as a whole because those lists are largely a reflection of what is popular on VH1. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of VH1; they seem to have a love affair with Cher's "Believe" that I don't share.

But what's to say that, for their list of the 100 Greatest Songs of the '00s, they truly did give EVERY song a fair shake and determined that Franz Ferdinand's "Take Me Out" (which is currently at #69 on AM, but was unlisted by VH1) was not as good a song as Colbie Caillat's "Bubbly" (which is currently unlisted here at AM, but is #71 according to VH1)? I guess what I'm trying to say is that just because a list doesn't include lesser-known songs doesn't necessarily mean that they weren't considered and then rejected as "not good enough".

If I'm being a pain in the ass, please say so and I'll shut up.

Re: My Guess...

JR
"Stairway to Heaven" was never released as a commercial single when it was out, though, and never appeared on a music chart (at least in the USA). :)

I just think that in the case of something like the Grammys, its methods of of coming up with nominations in the major categories has been VERY geared toward the commercial and popular, safe, middle-of-the-road choices (especially leading up to the late 90s and even past that). And the VH1 list obviously is very hits-driven- the majority of critics' lists are not. many feature tracks that were big hits, but a lot of times it has as many, if not more, tracks that were not big hits on the charts.


Oy. What I meant songs that are popular with radio but weren't singles.

Re: My Guess...

Matt Schroeder
Henrik
Matt Schroeder
What concerns me about the inclusion of a system that weights the lists is that, at least in my mind, the weighting implies that one list is more "valid" than another. Maybe I'm not looking at this the right way, and if so, hopefully someone can correct me.
Matt, your question is valid. Seriously, I was waiting for someone come back on this, but perhaps not everyone reads this thread.

My standpoint is this: Acclaimed Music and sales charts both rank music from top to bottom, but from different angles (critical judgment and popularity). While the sales chart are hugely dependent on what's "available", the ideal situation for the critical judgment would be if every song or album would have - quality aside - the same chance to be judged. However, as it is inevitable for the critics and music industry workers that availability plays a role in the makings of their lists, I use a weighting factor to get a little bit closer to the ideal situation. Nevertheless, less reachable music will always be underestimated.


So could it be argued that this new weighting system is based more on how inclusive the list appears to be? Or put another way, a list that includes more "unknown" songs/albums would have a higher weight than a list that includes little to no "unknown" songs/albums? And if that's the case, what is the criteria for if something is "known" or "unknown"?

Basically, here's what's going through my mind... The predominant argument seems to be that VH1's lists are not an accurate representation of music as a whole because those lists are largely a reflection of what is popular on VH1. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of VH1; they seem to have a love affair with Cher's "Believe" that I don't share.

But what's to say that, for their list of the 100 Greatest Songs of the '00s, they truly did give EVERY song a fair shake and determined that Franz Ferdinand's "Take Me Out" (which is currently at #69 on AM, but was unlisted by VH1) was not as good a song as Colbie Caillat's "Bubbly" (which is currently unlisted here at AM, but is #71 according to VH1)? I guess what I'm trying to say is that just because a list doesn't include lesser-known songs doesn't necessarily mean that they weren't considered and then rejected as "not good enough".

If I'm being a pain in the ass, please say so and I'll shut up.


I agree. I think it's a slippery slope to make judgments about what songs/albums were considered for a list. I think that if anything, mainstream pop is actually underrepresented on this site, not overrepresented.

Re: My Guess...

In a lot of cases, though, mainstream pop really isn't GREAT stuff. Being accessible and catchy doesn't necessarily make it good all the time. I can listen to a lot of stuff on the radio, whether during a workout or whatever, but I would not seek it out to listen to or purchase it. Certain mainstream acts have transcended just the mainstream pop genre on a regular basis, while others do so just with a single or two.

Re: My Guess...

Moonbeam, about mainstream pop being underrated, I just like to point out that it seems like you are in a minority here as our forum polls always contain less mainstream music.

Re: My Guess...

JR
"Stairway to Heaven" was never released as a commercial single when it was out, though, and never appeared on a music chart (at least in the USA). :)

I just think that in the case of something like the Grammys, its methods of of coming up with nominations in the major categories has been VERY geared toward the commercial and popular, safe, middle-of-the-road choices (especially leading up to the late 90s and even past that). And the VH1 list obviously is very hits-driven- the majority of critics' lists are not. many feature tracks that were big hits, but a lot of times it has as many, if not more, tracks that were not big hits on the charts.


Grammy voting has more to do, in the pre-nomination phase, with what the record industry decides to be on the list. For the pre-nom ballot released to voters, Album of the Year had around 900 choices, of which you're allowed to select 5. To even get on that ballot, you need someone shilling for you at the Grammy board (NARAS,) and that usually falls to the job of the record label. So it helps to be on a Big Four in regards to that, unless you somehow made it big on the charts without it.

Re: My Guess...

Henrik
Moonbeam, about mainstream pop being underrated, I just like to point out that it seems like you are in a minority here as our forum polls always contain less mainstream music.


That's probably true. In all honesty, I dislike a vast majority of mainstream music from say 1991-2011, but I recognize that it is often too easily dismissed by critics simply because of its popularity.

I agree that the VH1 list is filled with some horrendously bad music, but the inclusion of so many big hits is certainly an exception rather than a rule.

Re: My Guess...

Moonbeam
Henrik
I agree that the VH1 list is filled with some horrendously bad music, but the inclusion of so many big hits is certainly an exception rather than a rule.
Yes, and as I said the majority of lists have a weight parameter close to 1, so let's not make this a bigger issue than it is.

Re: My Guess...

Henrik
Yes, and as I said the majority of lists have a weight parameter close to 1, so let's not make this a bigger issue than it is.


I'm not intending to make it a big issue! Just thought I'd voice my opinion and say that this site is fantastic as it is without a weighting system. I'm not intending to create a big fuss and I apologize if I come off that way.

Re: My Guess...

I'm so excited about this update! My November is shaping up to be one giant kick in the face, and the first song update since 2008 will definitely be a bright spot for me!

Re: My Guess...

How is the anti-commercial factor determined, if I may ask? I'm assuming it's not a judgment call.

Re: My Guess...

Henrik
I will use a method (that I will never reveal!)

Re: My Guess...

Ah, right. I was just thinking that it might answer some of the questions and clear up the matter a little if we had a general idea of how it is determined.

That said, I'm all for this. It'll just make the rare gems move up the lists presumably, which is welcome.

Re: My Guess...

My feeling about mainstream pop is:

-Some of the songs coming out are fantastic, but the rest of the album is usually light filler.

-Some of the songs would be fantastic if they were less electro-stuttery and computerized. There are some pop songs I hate which sounded fantastic on The Voice.

So in summation, the problem with mainstream pop isn't the songwriting, it's the production paradigm of finding a pretty face and sterilizing in production rather than just finding talented singers and letting them sing.

Except for adult contemporary. The problem there is also the songwriting and a general contempt for the intelligence of the audience.

Re: My Guess...

I found one more list that I will include. This is a good one.

http://onethirtybpm.com/features/the-top-100-tracks-of-the-1980s/

Re: My Guess...

Ooh- nice find, Henrik. Love 80s lists- and some great tracks on there.

Hopefully Slant publishes 80s lists next year.