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Re: New Wilco Album out today

nicolas
Why on hell do you call that standard music ? This fucking American dichotomy of mainstream vs alternative just ruined music and critic.
People can't appreciate mellow or straightforward music without guilt.


The music of their past three studio albums is, for the most part, pretty standard. That's not saying it's bad, but there isn't a huge amount of risk taking with it. There are a fair amount of bands that could successfully emulate the sound of, say, "Wilco (The Album)", but only Wilco could make an album that sounds like "Summerteeth".

There isn't a huge amount of critical backlash against mellow or straightforward music either- the critical success of artists like Joni Mitchell, The Band, Nick Drake, and Simon & Garfunkel are perfect examples.

Also, the first time I listened to "Less Than You Think" I thought it was pretty pretentious. But lately I actually find it to be really calming, even relaxing. But to each his own.

Re: New Wilco Album out today

Nick

There isn't a huge amount of critical backlash against mellow or straightforward music either- the critical success of artists like Joni Mitchell, The Band, Nick Drake, and Simon & Garfunkel are perfect examples.

All of those artists are from the pre-alternative vs mainstream era.

And I don't see why taking risks is a necessarily a good thing in music. This is music not R&D
And issuing "Sky Blue Sky" after "Ghost is Born" is risk-taking also.

Re: New Wilco Album out today

BillAdama
Wilco knows how to play well whether or not they're being experimental, but when they're not, they're just 'competent standard'.

Some bands can play standard music exceptionally, for instance, The Band. Wilco plays standard music competently, and experimental music exceptionally.

It's all about the melodies. I think the only time they managed really good melodies was on YHF.


What about Summerteeth, an album that's melody for melody, a top 5 album of the 90s imo.

I don't think it has anything to do with Wilco being melodically poor. In fact, I'd put Jeff Tweedy as a melodicist against any songwriter of the past ten years. He writes classic melodies instead of cheap hooks, which is why his melodies go over some people's heads.

What makes Wilco, The Flaming Lips and Radiohead great is that even though they're experimental, there are still great tunes there.

That's what always put those bands head and shoulders above The White Stripes, The Arcade Fire, and The Strokes, who were completely fine digging up retro sounds and naively parading them around as some new discovery.

Re: New Wilco Album out today

Nick
nicolas
Why on hell do you call that standard music ? This fucking American dichotomy of mainstream vs alternative just ruined music and critic.
People can't appreciate mellow or straightforward music without guilt.


The music of their past three studio albums is, for the most part, pretty standard. That's not saying it's bad, but there isn't a huge amount of risk taking with it. There are a fair amount of bands that could successfully emulate the sound of, say, "Wilco (The Album)", but only Wilco could make an album that sounds like "Summerteeth".



Risk taking is what makes Wilco so exciting. The songwriting is what keeps you around years afterward.

Where as I'm likely to stop spinning a Tortoise album after a year or two, Jeff Tweedy's strength as a melodicist and lyricist keep me coming back. From 1996-2004, I'd put him up against any songwriter of the last 35 years.

Two things have combined to make the last few Wilco albums a little more boring.

1. Jeff Tweedy got well. He's a millionare now, and has faced down his demons. He has a very charmed life, which I'm happy for, but it doesn't exactly help his art. He went from writing heart rending songs like "She's a Jar" to writing a cut-rate Kumbayah on "What Light". Lame.

2. Losing Jay Bennett really hurt Wilco sonically. I'd argue that Bennett is up with the great sonic visionaries of all time, Eno, Wilson, Greenwood etc. Wilco has had trouble adjusting ever since he was fired 10 years ago.

Re: New Wilco Album out today

Double Post. Apologies.

Re: New Wilco Album out today

I could go down a laundry list of recent unexperimental music I like. Gillian Welch, Miranda Lambert, Josh T Pearson. All these country artists have something in common: They know how to inject emotional power into fairly straightforward songs. Wilco's strength is not emotional power, it's their songwriting and raw musicianship. That kind of music is not going to interest me as much if they're not exploring their sound as much as they used to.

And Nicolas, you're entitled to your opinion, but I resent your implication that people who disagree with you are putting on airs.

Re: New Wilco Album out today

BillAdama
Wilco's strength is not emotional power, it's their songwriting and raw musicianship. That kind of music is not going to interest me as much if they're not exploring their sound as much as they used to.


While I agree with this to some degree, it's more about the modern take on Wilco. Songs like "Sunken Treasure", "A Shot in the Arm" and "Jesus Etc" are definitely emotional.

Re: New Wilco Album out today

BillAdama

And Nicolas, you're entitled to your opinion, but I resent your implication that people who disagree with you are putting on airs.


I didn't mean that, and if you thought so, I'm sorry. I was mostly aiming at the critics for the critical shorthand on "Sky Blue Sky". I admit that I'm sometimes too direct, but that's the way I am. Maybe I'm thinking out loud a little too much. But don't take my opinions and my words as judgemental. They're not meant for that (I'm losing my English sorry)
I'm just trying to understand why some people are so elitist when it comes to popular cullture, especially in educated and cultured circles (and I'm from a very elitist country). I've had these kinds of discussions many many times at university, at my job, at dinners, etc...
I listen to a lot of indie pop and rock, experimental or "alternative", and if I don't always like that as much as "traditional" music, it's probably because I didn't try hard enough. Or that it's just not my thing.
But I don't think that people with opposite tastes are all fools and snobbish people.

Re: New Wilco Album out today

Great thread/debate. I don't feel passionate enough about Wilco to contribute, so I'll stay on the fence.

I'm listening to their new album at the moment and enjoying it. I'd be surprised if it doesn't make the top 10 in our poll at the end of the year.

Re: New Wilco Album out today

I agree there's no reason to be snobbish about music. I was really into the indie critical faves for a while, but lately I've gotten a little tired of that and spread out to other particular things.

I think some of it has to do with the fact that most people who are into indie music started out listening to pop music, and when they got tired of pop music they were still continuously subjected to it against their will. In my old job it was like "Do I really have to listen to this obnoxiously disingenuous Michael Buble song every single day?"

For me now, there are several particular things that can attract me to music. The energy, noise, and raw emotion attracts me to post-punk, the beats and melody attract me to dance-pop, the lyricism attracts me to people like Bob Dylan and Sufjan Stevens, the instrumental parts attract me to more rootsy music, the wildly unusual textured melodies attract me to Animal Collective and Dirty Projectors, the idiosyncratic emotional theater attracts me to people like Tom Waits and Lou Reed, or indie stuff like The National or TVOTR. But, it has to hit one of those things for me to like it.

The one older Wilco hits is the 'Idiosyncratic emotional theater', and newer Wilco is not idiosyncratic, so it no longer hits it. Parts of it hit the 'instrumental parts', but not consistently. They pulled themselves out of the indie niche into one less specific and less to their strength.

Re: New Wilco Album out today

I've heard it once and it could be a good reconciliation album for the various factions. For once my favorite song is the 1st one, it is both experimental and rootsy, one of the best songs they ever made. The rest is more «standard» stuffs and the album tends to lose its breath in the end, but it is a good and varied effort. Wilco's musiv encompasses a wide array of genres and eras, and that's what I like with them. I'd give the album a 8 rating (out of 10)

Re: New Wilco Album out today

nicolas

People can't appreciate mellow or straightforward music without guilt.

This comment strikes too much of a chord with me to ignore.

I don’t know if it is because I’m getting tired of the same kind of music always getting critical praise, but I feel like I’m starting to free myself from 21st century notions of what is “cool” or “critically acceptable” in music and I’m becoming more and more attracted to straightforward music (and world music... but that’s a different topic). Most of my all-time favourite songs are straightforward tunes from the 30s - 50s by the likes of Leadbelly, Woody Guthrie, Billie Holiday, Hank Williams, Johnny Cash, Boris Vian, Henry Salvador, to name a few. The songs by these artists may not be as adventurous or revolutionary as the acclaimed songs from the 60s onwards, but there’s beauty in their simplicity and to my ears they sound poignant.

But I don’t feel guilty about liking any of those artists. What I did feel guilty about was my #194 album for the all-time albums poll... The Carpenters – A Song for You. I actually hesitated to put it in my list for two reasons: because a voice in my head told me it’s embarrassing to like the Carpenters that much and because I don’t want to turn into a gay cliché of a certain age. But Karen Carpenter... when that woman’s perfect, crystal clear voice combines with the band’s mellow arrangements I just melt, and I can’t help it goddamnit! But I’ve surrendered to it now and I don’t feel guilty about enjoying their music anymore.

By the way, nicolas, when I started listening to pre-90s music a year or so ago, your regular nagging about how people shouldn’t listen to music from the 30s -70s from a 21st century perspective sunk in and really helped me to listen to music from those periods with an open mind. So thanks!

Re: New Wilco Album out today

You're welcome Dan !
Don't change your tastes ! I second every word you wrote in yr post.
And bravo for not giving in to your inner guilt and censorship
I'm on my cellphone so I won't be very long but I also realized that my love for Hotel California was suspect but it made my list anyway
Loving straightforward music and not being true to yrself whataver people think wouldn't make any sense, would it ?
That doesn't mean of course that the others are not true to themselves, don't make me say what I haven't said (cautious now

Re: New Wilco Album out today

Just saw this thread and read some interesting posts.

Heard the new album about 10 times now, and it's pretty good "standard" music. 4 stars for the moment