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Re: Focus Group: New Game Idea

I was thinking that the votes are the "goals", and the same rules apply as in the world cup.

Re: Focus Group: New Game Idea

I think this could be cool. I have been thinking along similar lines, but with divisions and seasons instead of a cup. But a cup is more manageable.

If there is a group of say four albums, will there be a single vote between all four albums, or 6 different match-ups as in the real world cup?
Album A - Album B
Album C - Album D
Album A - Album C
Album B - Album D
Album A - Album D
Album B - Album C

Re: Focus Group: New Game Idea

Henrik
If there is a group of say four albums, will there be a single vote between all four albums, or 6 different match-ups as in the real world cup?
Album A - Album B
Album C - Album D
Album A - Album C
Album B - Album D
Album A - Album D
Album B - Album C

I would probably do it like this, unless there is major objection against it, which I don't see happening.
This biggest problem I see with this is the time it takes to listen to the albums.

Re: Focus Group: New Game Idea

Henrik
I think this could be cool. I have been thinking along similar lines, but with divisions and seasons instead of a cup. But a cup is more manageable.

If there is a group of say four albums, will there be a single vote between all four albums, or 6 different match-ups as in the real world cup?
Album A - Album B
Album C - Album D
Album A - Album C
Album B - Album D
Album A - Album D
Album B - Album C


Mubi is doing that with directors.

I thought of something like that for these boards, an 'Artist Cup'. Where people select artists to manage, then pick individual songs/albums for each matchup, and you can't use the same song/album twice.

If you're doing an album oriented thing, I highly recommend doing head to head matchups. It's hard to get high participation numbers for a game that requires people to do listening. It'll be easier if you're doing it with albums high up on the AM list, but the more albums you need to listen to to vote, the fewer people will vote.

I bet I could come up with a nonparametric algorithm where people could just rank the albums they've heard, and leave blank the ones they haven't, but it'd be really complicated and nobody but me and Henrik would understand it.

Re: Focus Group: New Game Idea

Based on the input so far, it would be better to use either the top 64 or 128 albums on AM.
If we use the top 128 for my example, here's what it would look like:
Pool A:
Pet Sounds
Unknown Pleasures
Murmur
Merriweather Post Pavillion

Pool B:
Revolver
Led Zeppelin II
Tapestry
In Rainbows

For the first three weeks, each album would face a different albums in it's pool.
After the three weeks, the top two from each pool advance. The album to come in first in pool A will face the album to come in second in pool b, and, vice versa.

Re: Focus Group: New Game Idea

I don't know about having the same albums have three separate votes. I think part of the reason for declining participation in Unacclaimed is that the double elimination format causes too much repetition.

The World Cup format would work for a game like this:

64 bands are in the competition, each band is claimed by an AM user, who picks a different song for each matchup.

For a game that's about using the same album over and over, especially if that game is about albums a majority of the people here already have strong opinions about, I would go with a 'Rank the 4 in order, top 2 advance' format. In fact, it might be interesting to keep that format throughout.

Re: Focus Group: New Game Idea

BillAdama
64 bands are in the competition, each band is claimed by an AM user, who picks a different song for each matchup.
This sounds great to me. Before the cup starts we could sign up as "managers" for the artists and send playlists to Listyguy like this:

Group match 1: "Song A"
Group match 2: "Song B"
Group match 3: "Song C"
...
Semi-final: "Song X"
Final: "Song Y"

Is this exactly what you meant, BillAdama?

Sorry Listyguy, if this is too far from your original idea. It's your game so you will decide of course.


Edit: I think it could be very interesting to do this with albums (and not artists). As a manager, would you use the best songs in the first rounds to try to advance from the group, or save some great songs to the end if your album make it all the way to the final?

Edit 2: With 64 albums there will be 8 match-ups for the albums that go to the final. If this format is used I assume we should only include albums with 8 songs or more. Should the selection be made of AM's top 64 albums or 64 personal favorites?

Re: Focus Group: New Game Idea

I really like that idea, but people would need to pick more than one album because we certainly don't have 64 active members. I would argue for the AM top 64, perhaps sticking to 1 album per artist to make it more interesting.

Re: Focus Group: New Game Idea

BillAdama

64 bands are in the competition, each band is claimed by an AM user, who picks a different song for each matchup.


One way to make it interesting (and fairer): everyone has to pick an artist outside the AM Top 100.

Re: Focus Group: New Game Idea

I am with Stephan on that point. We don't have 64 active forum members to choose the songs for each matchup. And if each took two or more albums, it would be kind of wierd if they ended up facing each other. And what would happen if the member didn't chose a song for the mathcup? An automatic forfeit?

Re: Focus Group: New Game Idea

Listyguy
I am with Stephan on that point. We don't have 64 active forum members to choose the songs for each matchup. And if each took two or more albums, it would be kind of wierd if they ended up facing each other.
We have more than one personal pick in the unacclaimed and moderately games and I think it's just fun to have several chances to win. Furthermore, I think the big winner would be the album, the manager is less important.
Listyguy
And what would happen if the member didn't chose a song for the mathcup? An automatic forfeit?
All songs could be chosen before the game begins.

Re: Focus Group: New Game Idea

Alex D
BillAdama

64 bands are in the competition, each band is claimed by an AM user, who picks a different song for each matchup.


One way to make it interesting (and fairer): everyone has to pick an artist outside the AM Top 100.


I hope we take artist outside AM top 1000.

Re: Focus Group: New Game Idea

Henrik
We have more than one personal pick in the unacclaimed and moderately games and I think it's just fun to have several chances to win. Furthermore, I think the big winner would be the album, the manager is less important.

True, but it would be different if you have to pick the song that for both your favorite artists.
Henrik
All songs could be chosen before the game begins.

True, but that eliminates part of the strategy of the game. For example, if you're artist is facing the Beatles (Even though that couldn't happen if we go with artists outside the top 100), you would want to pick the artist's best song to keep them in the game.

Re: Focus Group: New Game Idea

Henrik
BillAdama
64 bands are in the competition, each band is claimed by an AM user, who picks a different song for each matchup.
This sounds great to me. Before the cup starts we could sign up as "managers" for the artists and send playlists to Listyguy like this:

Group match 1: "Song A"
Group match 2: "Song B"
Group match 3: "Song C"
...
Semi-final: "Song X"
Final: "Song Y"

Is this exactly what you meant, BillAdama?

Sorry Listyguy, if this is too far from your original idea. It's your game so you will decide of course.


Edit: I think it could be very interesting to do this with albums (and not artists). As a manager, would you use the best songs in the first rounds to try to advance from the group, or save some great songs to the end if your album make it all the way to the final?

Edit 2: With 64 albums there will be 8 match-ups for the albums that go to the final. If this format is used I assume we should only include albums with 8 songs or more. Should the selection be made of AM's top 64 albums or 64 personal favorites?


Yeah, that's what I meant. I think this particular idea works better for artists than albums, particularly if you exclude the already-favorites, because you wouldn't run into problems with albums with too few singles.

But, if you wanted to do it with albums, you could reduce the limit to seven by having the final match be between the full albums. If we do it with albums, it's probably better to allow people to pick their personal favorites rather than limiting them to the top.

Listyguy's idea is good too, so long as we can reduce the number of times we're judging the same albums.

Re: Focus Group: New Game Idea

As I see it, there will always be people who disappear during the game, so either the songs in each match-up will have to be chosen before the start of the game, or the same songs will be used in every match-up.

Re: Focus Group: New Game Idea

What I'm think we could do is have one bracket with the top 32 artists on AM and another with 32 artists outside the top 32, as chosen by their "Managers", and the winner of each faces off at the end.

To resolve the problem me and Henkrik have been discussing, we could have the "Managers" list the songs they would use for each round in case they dropped of the forum, but they could change the order up to 24 hours before the matchup started, to keep strategy involved but prevent issues.

Re: Focus Group: New Game Idea

As this is a focus group and an open discussion, I hope it's OK if I speak my mind. This is a really cool idea for a game and a lot of thought has clearly gone into it already. But... please remember that most people respond to music intuitively. With this game (and I daresay other recent "games" like the underrated albums poll) the rules tend to be a bit too complicated. It puts people off. I can completely see how this forum attracts people who like mathematics and statistics, but you have to remember that most people would prefer not to reach for their calculators to participate in a poll. Please keep it simple. The goal of these games must be to allow maximum participation, and the more complicated you make it the less likely people will participate. Just saying...

Re: Focus Group: New Game Idea

Don't worry, I have no idea what's going on in the underrated album thred either.
AM is half (more like 3/4) or the reason I'm taking AP stat next year. This game doesn't involve any math (yet).

Re: Focus Group: New Game Idea

Yes, it's always possible to find replacement managers if we need, and we can always have people declare their choices at the beginning, then change them later.

@Dan

But, I don't think these ideas are very complicated to the participants. To the people who run them, they're a bit complicated, but to the managers all you have to do is pick an artist then pick the songs you want to play, and to the voters, all you have to do is look at two songs and pick your favorite. Nobody has to reach for their calculators except the person who runs the game.

I agree the underrated albums poll is making people do too much work. I would just say 'You can't pick the top X AM and top Y RYM, otherwise use your own judgment'.

Re: Focus Group: New Game Idea

I have to admit that the Underrated Albums poll is a little complicated, but it's as complicated as you make it. It does require some effort to look up the AM and RYM rankings, but there is really no requirement to apply formulas to get your ranking. That's just kinda fun to some of us.

I hope you guys will still participate despite the extra work you need to put into it to create your list, but even if you don't I'm sure you can find some nice recommendations through the final and individual lists.

If you feel that it's too complicated, just submit a top 50 list of your favorite albums not in the AM or RYM top 500 (with your personal all-time ranking) and I'll check the eligibility. I just don't have the time to do that for everyone though.

Re: Focus Group: New Game Idea

Henrik
I think this could be cool. I have been thinking along similar lines, but with divisions and seasons instead of a cup.


I like this idea and might actually run with it starting in July when some other stuff is over. As mentioned in the original post, this World Cup game/poll is intended for albums. My Division game would be based on artists.

Re: Focus Group: New Game Idea

BillAdama

@Dan

But, I don't think these ideas are very complicated to the participants. To the people who run them, they're a bit complicated, but to the managers all you have to do is pick an artist then pick the songs you want to play, and to the voters, all you have to do is look at two songs and pick your favorite. Nobody has to reach for their calculators except the person who runs the game.


I get ya. I was just a little paranoid that this game would end up having too many rules. But that was last night. This morning, after a bowl of hearty Scottish porridge, I realize that the rules are actually quite simple. It'll be a fun game and I'm looking forward to it already.

Re: Focus Group: New Game Idea

nicolas
Beans


Minus the stench of corruption I hope


I see some things are still hard to swallow 1.5 year after

But I feel for you in your sorrow, especially after the dreadful World Cup 2010 of the French team.


Ha ha. No, I'm well and truly over that whole incident. Just referring to the current debacle.

Re: Focus Group: New Game Idea

Henrik
I was thinking that the votes are the "goals", and the same rules apply as in the world cup.

That's what I was thinking. Each time a song from an srtist got a vote it would be a "goal"if two artists are tied with goals, then we could compare their head-to-head performance.

Re: Focus Group: New Game Idea

OK with, Survivor ending in two weeks, I could start this in four weeks (after finals). Or, I could open up the "Bidding" in two weeks and start the actuall game in July.
We should limit each person to one top 32 and one non-top 32 artist at first, and then allow for another round of picking.

Re: Focus Group: New Game Idea

Listyguy
OK with, Survivor ending in two weeks, I could start this in four weeks (after finals). Or, I could open up the "Bidding" in two weeks and start the actuall game in July.
We should limit each person to one top 32 and one non-top 32 artist at first, and then allow for another round of picking.

I pretty much am confirming my above statement, unless anyone objects.
I will open up bidding for the top 32 artist on june 12/13, with survivor ending on June 11. Each person who wants an artist will be required to submit an list of the songs in order within a week of the tournaments start (pribably gonna be June 25, maybe July 2), and will be limited to one artist one each "side" to start.