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Hmmm...

I don't know what it is, but whenever I think of the Monkees, bands like The Partridge Family come to mind. Monkees have hada couple irresistible hits, but, otherwise, I don't know.

The band has been eligible since 1991, and isn't that highly acclaimed (compared to others).

Also- not a big surprise to see Bon Jovi passed over again. And Def Leppard continues to miss the cut (I wouldn't be surprised to see DL continually passed on).

Re: Hmmm...

They had way more hits than a large percentage of bands already in the hall, they were pop icons in the 60's and their TV show still runs in syndication. I can understand the Partridge Family comparison but they proved they could do it on their own. The Partridge Family also didn't have four #1 albums, and one of those albums was Pisces, Aquarius, Capricorn & Jones Ltd. where the Monkees were pretty much handling all of the instruments. The next album, Birds the Bees and the Monkees was after the show was cancelled and they had complete control. That hit #3 on the Billboard charts. I always thought that one day the Monkees would get their due as a great band instead of a TV band, but I think it's gone the opposite direction where people only recognize them as a band in a TV show.

Re: Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Nominees

So I guess the term "rock and roll" means "all popular music except country and jazz". I never thought of ABBA as rock and roll. It's just pop. Nothing wrong with it, but it ain't rock and roll. Don't think Jimmy Cliff or Donna Summer qualify either...

If I take them out of the mix based on their actual genre, I guess my votes would go the Stooges and KISS. After all, I am from Detroit Rock City.

Re: Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Nominees

I thought the Smiths would be eligible by now. I think British artists will always suffer in this hall though. No doubt countless influential British alternative bands from the 80s will miss the cut year after year...

But...

you're citing commercial stats in regards to the Monkees- tha's not a major point the HOF considers. Sure, some acts have enjoyed great commercial success, but that's not going to geto ne into the HOF (loo kat Chicago, Neil Diamond, Journey, etc.)

Yeah, "rock and roll" always has been an umbrella category. The Country Music Hall of Fame existed long before the Rock Hall, and while there are a few country acts in both, most seem to be passed overe for the Rock Hall.

Re: But...

IMO, the hall is just like the Grammys and commercial stats is the #1 criteria for both. That's why it's shocking to me that the Monkees are not in. If it weren't that way, I wouldn't think twice about it, but when you look at the inductees... I think the Monkees belong.

Re: But...

And that's where you're wrong. If commercial success was the HoF's main criterion, a couple of artist (e.g. The Velvet Underground, Leonard Cohen, Buffalo Springfield, Grateful Dead) would never have gotten in. According to rockhall.com "the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame honors the legendary performers, producers, songwriters, disc jockeys and others who have made rock and roll the force that it is in our culture." So lasting impact on the rock music genre would probably be the main criterion for the Hall. Which still makes The Monkees a deserving artist. After all they were the very first band to be casted for a TV show.

@ Paul: The term "rock and roll" is not strictly defined. Many will only think of the early R&R performers from the 1950's whenever the term is mentioned. But the Hall decided to use a wider definition of the term, and include all the genres that were directly or indirectly influenced by R&R as well. As a result it has to include all the "white" R&R offsprings (rockabilly, folk rock, country rock, hard rock, metal, punk, alternative rock), as well as the "black" ones (doo wop, soul, ska/reggae, funk, disco, hip-hop). Country, folk, blues or jazz artists would usually not be eligible, since these genres existed before rock and roll, although they later were influenced by it (which explains the induction of rock era artists from these genres such as Johnny Cash, Miles Davis or John Lee Hooker, that I personally think to be questionable). While looking at pop artists, you also have to think about their influences. Barbra Streisand for example largely draws her influences from a traditional pop and perhaps jazz background, which does not make her a rock artist, although she became popular in the rock era. ABBA on the other hand were influenced by the mainstream pop/rock bands of the 1960's such as The Beatles and the Bee Gees, so in a way they were indirectly influenced by rock and roll.

Re: But...

pauldrach - Good explanation of how the hall defines R&R.

Re: But...

pauldrach
And that's where you're wrong. If commercial success was the HoF's main criterion, a couple of artist (e.g. The Velvet Underground, Leonard Cohen, Buffalo Springfield, Grateful Dead) would never have gotten in. According to rockhall.com "the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame honors the legendary performers, producers, songwriters, disc jockeys and others who have made rock and roll the force that it is in our culture." So lasting impact on the rock music genre would probably be the main criterion for the Hall. Which still makes The Monkees a deserving artist. After all they were the very first band to be casted for a TV show.
.

yeah, but at this point those artists have been so greatly lauded since their commercial failure that THEY don't get passed over because otherwise they wouldn't be "legitimate." is Hüsker Dü gonna be inducted? probably not.

Re: But...

Exactly.

Re: But...

the rock & roll HOF is a joke

who decides who gets in or not? do you think they ask themselves, "who meant more to rock and roll, abba or the stooges"? could they justify their answers?

i dont mind something like the AM HOF because its just some people voting for their favorite artists and it stays on the message boards for anyone to see. its fun. but the r&r HOF gets televised, covered by the media, artists who get inducted get the "R&R HOF legends" prefix attached to their names. the amount of media attention it gets gives it some sort of credibility that it doesnt deserve.

its fun on your music message board, but asinine on a large scale.

Re: But...

"We live in an age where people like James Taylor are inducted into the Rock & Roll Hall Of Fame before The Stooges" - Jack White

Re: But...

Don't get me wrong. I neither agree with all of the HoF's decisions, nor do I think, that they stick strictly to their own criteria. It is obvious that money plays and important part in the nomination and voting process, as do personal preferences. It's just not true, that commercial success is the HoF's main criterion, in the way it is for the Grammies.

Re: But...

i agree with that but the HOF isn't gonna go out of their way to nominate more recent influential underground bands (that is, 25 years ago recent) because it's not in their best interest to. how many people, really, would go to a place with a bunch of bands they've never heard of (or worse, think are weird) and wonder why Billy Joel or the Lovin' Spoonful aren't in (which they are...) That's not to say that these artists are terrible... but just that the HOF skipped over bands that have done far more interesting things with music: Roxy Music, Brian Eno, King Crimson, Hüsker Dü, The Minutemen, Sonic Youth and Captain Beefheart come to mind. but w/e hahaha

Re: But...

I agree 100%. As I said, money plays an important role. Somewhere (can't remember where) I actually read, that the nominating committee once erased a doo wop act from their list in favor of a more popular artist, because there weren't enough big names on the ballot to assure a certain number of ticket sales for the induction ceremony. And that certainly was not the only time something like that happened.

Re: But...

The original Chicago & Kool & The Gang could be inducted by now but they don't want the fake versions showing up. Abba isn't willing to perform. I've heard that they turned down $1 billion before, so what's the point in inducting them. I don't know why they would ignore/reject Brian Eno & Todd Rundgren.

Ranking the nominees, using the AM Artist Top 1000

According to the AM All Time Artist Top 1000, these are the most deserving of all the nominees:

66. The Stooges
150. Red Hot Chili Peppers
192. Jimmy Cliff
198. ABBA
199. LL Cool J

230. Donna Summer
253. Genesis
285. Kiss
440. Laura Nyro
1167. The Chantels
1700. The Hollies
1724. Darlene Love

Genesis' Peter Gabriel is currently ranked #127.

Probably more interesting is the list of artists that should have been nominated. These are the highest ranking eligible artists, currently not in the HOF:

26. The Smiths
34. Beastie Boys
42. Roxy Music
46. Lou Reed
47. Sonic Youth
51. Joy Division
55. New Order
56. Kraftwerk
(60. John Coltrane)
62. Tom Waits
64. The Jam
66. The Stooges
71. The Cure

Of this group, only Reed, the Beasties, Kraftwerk and The Stooges have been nominated.

Commercial Success...

there's no denying some of the greats have enjoyed a good amount of commercial success. But as the HOF has indivated, it is not a major criteria, otherwise a number of acts would not be in there.

If commercial success were a major criteira, an act like Mariah Carey would be a shoo-in when she's eligible- and I'd be highly surprised if she were seriously considered (the acclaim/importance as an artist just isn't there). Look at Chicago, Neil Diamond, etc.- notably successful acts, but not in (same with Barbra Streisand- undoubtedly a legend, but she's the best proof that a tremendous voice doesn't do the trick, either).

Re: Commercial Success...

Lou Reed's not in the HoF? Christ.

It's fine to have a slant toward commercial success because you're trying to have mainstream appeal, but at least give a nod to the ones who influenced the guys who had commercial success.

Beastie Boys'll get in eventually, I wouldn't worry about them. Stooges're long overdue. Kiss deserve to be in a lot less than a lot of people who aren't (Gimmick band), but they'll get in too just because of their iconism.

If Kiss does get in and the Stooges don't again:

1) Put makeup on your face and stick your tongue out: Legendary rock band

2) Influenced every hard rock band that ever existed: Not legendary rock band.

Kiss...

Dave marsh was one critic who has fought long and hard to keep Kiss off the ballot- it worked, until this yea,r I guess. ha Kiss was one of my favorite acts when I was 5- I had the Love Gun album and dressed as Ace Frehley for Halloween. Over the years, I lost interest, I guess.

Re: Kiss...

Everyone keeps forgetting about the women. What about Kate Bush? How many times have you heard the latest artrock diva or band drawing comparisons to her just this year alone? She has to be one of the most influencial figures in all of alternative rock. I guess it's because the one country she wasn't a massive success in is the US so if she wasn't big here her influence doesn't matter.

I Wouldn't Say That...

there are acts who weren't massively successful, yet ae in the HOF. Heck, Jimi Hendrix was never a huge commercial success.

Re: I Wouldn't Say That...

JR
there are acts who weren't massively successful, yet ae in the HOF. Heck, Jimi Hendrix was never a huge commercial success.


please.

his 3 albums were top 5 hits in the US and the UK except EL in the UK which charted at 6. jimi hendrix was nothing short of an icon.

Re: I Wouldn't Say That...

JR
there are acts who weren't massively successful, yet ae in the HOF. Heck, Jimi Hendrix was never a huge commercial success.


In the United States, Are You Experienced was the single best-selling album of 1968. When Jimi took the stage at Woodstock, he was easily among the world's most popular and famous artists.

The same can't really be said about The Velvet Underground, despite the fact that the music they made was on par with Jimi and others. As a result, Hendrix makes it his first year (not that anyone could complain about that) while the VU have to wait four years. And even then they only get in because a Rock Hall would be illegitimate without them.

Re: Ranking the nominees, using the AM Artist Top 1000

Klauw

26. The Smiths
34. Beastie Boys
42. Roxy Music
46. Lou Reed
47. Sonic Youth
51. Joy Division
55. New Order
56. Kraftwerk
(60. John Coltrane)
62. Tom Waits
64. The Jam
66. The Stooges
71. The Cure


These are some great artists being left out!

Re: Ranking the nominees, using the AM Artist Top 1000

I generally have no issues about legitimacy when it comes to these hall of fame/award type things. The fun is in figuring out the tastes and biases of the voters and bitching and moaning about their choices. I love the Oscars and Emmys (and even the generally execrable Grammys) for that reason.

All that said... the RnRHOF abandons all claims to legitimacy until they vote in Sonic Youth.

And I'm a little surprised they haven't yet. Three years ago my wife and I were visiting friends in Cleveland. We made an ill-advised and ill-fated trip to the Hall of Fame museum with our two year old girls. They were unimpressed to say the least. The one thing I do remember getting to see was that there was a surprising amount of things about Sonic Youth... a whole short film in which they discussed their influences and a couple of pieces of memoribilia. I suppose the voters are quite different than the curators, though.

Eventually there will be a generational turnover, and it will be interesting to see what happens. Once Nirvana and other 90's Alternative Nation bands get voted in, there is bound to be a groundswell to vote in more of their forebears.

I Mean...

Hendrix was never a HUGE commercial success- he didn't have an album that sold more than 5m in the USA, for instance, and he never had a top 10 hit on the Hot 100- his highest-charting single topped out at #20.

Yeah, he had more success thaan some others, but he's hardly one of the most commercially successful acts of all time. And, yes, he is an icon and one of the most influential and greatest artists- but commercial success has nada to do with gauging that.

Re: I Mean...

I should rephrase and say, had an album that's been certified for 5 million+. :) Are You Experienced is at 4 million, I believe.

Inductees....

ABBA
Genesis
Jimmy Cliff
The Hollies
The Stooges

Boo at Yet another year gone by for Donna Summer. Yay for ABBA.

I guess Genesis' pre-Phil-Collins-as-lead work got them in? Can't imagine Phil Collins will be considered anytime soon for his solo work (though I do enjoy some of it).

Madonna did Iggy and the boys a favor last year by having them lay at the induction ceremony.

Surprised the Red Hot Chilli Peppers didn't get in on the band's first year of eligibility.

Re: I Mean...

JR
I should rephrase and say, had an album that's been certified for 5 million+. :) Are You Experienced is at 4 million, I believe.

4 million copies is pretty damn successful

Re: Inductees....

This is one the best classes in hall history.

Re: Inductees....

Does anybody know why Genesis is in when Yes and King Crimson aren't? At least they finally fixed one of their most obvious omissions by including the Stooges, and they didn't vote Kiss in. Unlike the past few years, this class seems like it's more about merit and less about selling tickets to the induction ceremony.

Re: Inductees....

Jackson
Does anybody know why Genesis is in when Yes and King Crimson aren't?

Probably because of all the hits they had with Phil Collins as lead singer. If they'd split in 1980,they would have zero chance of getting in,despite arguably still deserving to...

Yes...

4 million is very successful- but you know what I mean. He never had the commercial success of some other acclaiemd acts (i.e. Beatles, Elvis, Madonna, Elton John, etc. etc.)- especially in terms of hit singles.

Abba's Gold compilation continues to sell well, certified at 6 million+- hard to believe the group only had4 top 10 hits. That album is chock full of classic pop nuggets.

I suppose Genesis was more progressive and musically interesting than Chicago (at least before the Phil Collins years). The 80s balladry totally ruined it for Chicago (even though I like some of those songs. hehe)