Parts book below,no pannier frames listed.
Parts book below,pannier frames & bags listed.
Below,these DME circulars upto June 1943 give 1942 dates for fitting of pannier sets to several models.
According to O&M C9310 was delivered early 1942. Ron
email (option): ronpier@talk21.com
The Ministry of Supply ledgers are annotated (in an amendment dated 8/8/1941 but these are often retrospective)
"Supply and fitment of pannier frames, pillion seats and footrests to 9881 machines".
Unfortunately, we don't have the axact delivery dates, but there were roughly 14000 due in at the end of December which meant they had delivered 3000 between late October and late December. If they kept up 1500 per month then presumably the last 9881 would have commenced delivery around April 1941 ?
Photographic evedence does show that the higher numbers under this contract featured panniers and Dunlopillo pillion pads.
The red entries would be where the pannier frames would have been fitted. But only the very last picture (C4400654) had pannier frames. Makes me think that this had been a retrofit...?
More or less around the red entries they stopped fitting pannier boxes, but there was nothing instead. These bikes still the early carrier, no pannier boxes anymore and no pannier frames yet.
email (option): wd.register@gmail.com
Lex, on the balance of probabilities, most machines in service were retro-fitted with pillion and pannier equipment. The D.M.E. Circular lists the fitting of panniers etc. as "Immediate Action" (For Nortons effective 31/3/1942, BSA 10/5/1942, Ariel 12/6/1942 and Enfield 23/2/43).
Presumably "Immediate Action" circulars were not intended to be ignored.
I've looked again at the MoS ledgers and it looks as if "Instruction 5" which I referred to above may have been deleted in an amendment dated 30/9/41 and then there is a further amendment dated 5/2/1942 instructing the fitment to 856 machines at £4.3.0 as opposed to the £3.10.0 mentioned on Amendment 5 i.e. 13/- more expensive.
It's also interesting that Contract C10217 states "6/2/1942 - Alteration to Pannier Carrier and Pannier Bags" (@13/- per machine) This wording is repeated on the 14,000 conversion kits supplied under C11037 and the 140 under C11377.It looks as if the design had not been finalised until early 1942. Might Norton have developed the sliding stay ? :thinking_face:
If only the last 856 machines of C7353 were pannier-equipped ex-works, this would suggest from frame no. W42144 / WD Serial C4402170 and photographic evidence would seem to support this.
Here are C4402582 and C4402724 (the full numbers are not visible, but they don't fit with other contracts. Both have the Dunlopillo seat of the early type.
This is C4402777 - No panniers but the carrier and pillion are fitted.
...
It has often been rumored that the pannier frames were a Norton design, adopted by the other motorcycle makers. So far I haven't seen any proof of this theory. With the above dates it would be more logical to assume that they were a BSA design...?
Not so sure about that anymore... Now that we know that there was an intermediate period in which Norton already fitted the new (pannier frame style) carrier without fitting the pannier frames themselves, this made me have another look at my BSA contract C/9310 photographs (census numbers C4553722 - 4556721). I've only got two unfortunately, but the first one seems to confirm that BSA may also have had an "intermediate period" with the new frame but without the pannier frames:
But this picture shows the sister bike, with pannier frames fitted. Retrofit I wonder? Who's got more C/9310 photographs?
email (option): wd.register@gmail.com
This is one from that contract that went to Australia. No bags to see but certainly the pillion and carrier. The caption quotes C4558184. O&M state bags fitted for that contract, so something must have been written up. Ron
email (option): ronpier@talk21.com
I had just asked for more pictures when Rob Miller sent me this one:
We both worked out that these were C9310 despite not being able to see the beginning of the number (C4558300).
email (option): wd.register@gmail.com
Unless we actually find documentation, there will be supposition about the reasons for pannier-type carriers without pannier racks and bags. It may be that they were not popular with some riders initially.
In terms of dating the BSA inception, I've been looking at the photos on our old friend Henk's CD.
Contract C9310 was for 9,000 machines carrying WD Serials C4553722 - C4562721 and numbered WM20 44213 - 53212. The first arrival at Chilwell was noted on 23/8/1941. Do the factory records extend this far with exact despatch dates ?
Anyway, Henk adjudged this one to be C4554743 : WM20 45234 so only a thousand or so into the contract. Based on the later style fuel tank, I don't think it can be from an earlier contract.
This is C4556635 - WM20 46126 but it has clearly been refinished and generally messed around with. If the rear carrier is a factory fitment then we're 2000 into the contract which would be early October 1941 production and still no panniers.
