Early war time despatch riders,possibly military police with a cover on their caps which would be red,cap badges are not clear enough to determine,MP arm band is on one photo.

Thank you Steve, they are Corps of Military Poice cap badges, and the formation sign on the BSA is Southern Command, Red Black Red, cloth formation signs were first issued in July 1940 but it may have taken a while for everyone to get them so that can't date them exactly.

The Visible tax disc is perhaps more likely to be expiring Dec 31st 1939 because the green is darker than the orange?

Rob

email (option): robmiller11@yahoo.co.uk

Nice pics Steve!

I finally fitted my early Big 4 Handlebars, thanks Ron! so my tax disk holder is held vertical instead of at an angle. (later Big 4 handlebars had the bends in a different place)

Rob, my disk is December 1940, normally red will show up as black in the black and white films of the day, but not sure with this more orange colour? were they red when new, and is it just faded?

Cheers,

Lex

email (option): welbike@welbi**.net

You are right Lex, Red does look dark in black and white, but all my original 1940s are orange.

I have only seen one original "Army" civilain type tax disc, it was a green 1939 for a Morris Commercial, have you got or seen a 1940?

Rob

email (option): robmiller11@yahoo.co.uk

No, don't have anything like that, am in the wrong country to find any of that!

Lex

email (option): welbike@welbi**.net

My understanding is that the requirement to display a Vehicle Excise Licence ceased along with the civilian number plate at the outbreak of war in September 1939. No new discs would have been issued after that time. The War Office were exempt the payment of duty and seem to have used a system whereby all of the discs expired in December. I have a photo of a disc from a Morris tractor RMP 824 which was taken into service in May 1939 but which expired end December.

1940-expiring discs would only have been issued to those vehicles in the UK required to display civilian number plates after January 1940 and certainly not in France. This would not include WD (Army) vehicles.

These images seem to have been taken on different occasions and on different film types, both orthochromatic and polychromatic. Orthochromatic shows reds as almost black and certainly in the first of the pictures showing the disc, the red armbands and hat cover are much darker than the stripe on the disc. This is less noticeable on the second, but it is better focussed and the fact that the red areas are cloth will have made them less reflective.

The photo showing the Southern Command sign looks polychromatic. The formation sign will be red with a dark blue central stripe and in this case, the red is a light shade, The M20 has no disc, unlike the Norton.

I'm inclined to think, bearing in mind the civilian car or van in the background that the Norton photos are pre-war Territorial Camp images and the M20 with battledress and Command formation sign date to after the fall of France.

Great images by the way Steve. Thanks for posting.

Ah, Rik, so if I'm reading it right, my tax license is wrong? should have an 1939 one??

It's all a bit futile anyway, as this Big 4 wouldn't have any of that, and it will be changed over to the 1939 Big 4, when that will be ready, if ever??

Cheers,

Lex

email (option): welbike@welbi**.net

Lex, that's my interpretation. There are plenty of tax disc holders in phoney-war motorcycle photos but they become less common after the end of 1939 and number plates were mostly painted over by then.

There clearly were still a few in place when May 1940 came round, but more on four-wheelers where they weren't in the way. I can't immediately recall a Fall of France or BEF-abandoned photo that shows a holder still in place ? I haven't seen an ACI instructing removal though.

The way I understand it "discs" were never stopped here in Great Britain, they transitioned from the civilian disc with the price field left blank to the Defence of the Realm or "G" disc, Army Form A2017, these were used with Army vehicles and civilian vehicles performing Army tasks, I have seen written orders that they were not to be displayed on Army motorcycles, unlike the RAF version, but were to be attached inside the AB412 & AB412m log book, but I haven't worked out exactly when the change happened, hence my interest in the one on Lex's Big4, I also understand that machines were exempt from this disc in the run up to Normandy if they were with invasion rather than home units.

I think this may explain the rarity of the early alluminium holder and the commonness of the later RAF blue versions.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11@yahoo.co.uk