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Engine number BSA M20

Hello everyone,

I will start with a small introduction. My name is Giel Dijkstra, 36 years old and live in the Netherlands. I follow this forum for a few years now and I must say that I've learned alot! Thanks for that..

I own a BSA M20 since 2020 wich I bought in Germany. It was in a bad state and I started to bring it back to life... a few months later the bike was rebuild and ready to drive.

Since than I've done many miles and it brings a smile from ear to ear on my face every time I start the bike!

I have made it look like a wd motorcycle like the ones in WW2.The bike is not 100% period correct, but I do'nt mind. For instance it has a frame from a 1946 BSA M21.

The engine I know is period correct and I think it must be from 1939 or early 1940. But unfortunately I can't find any info on the engine myself.

Hopefully anyone on this forum can help me with the engine number. I would love to know more from the history of my bike!

The engine number is: WM20.864.

I would appreciate any help,

Thanks in advance,
Giel

Re: Engine number BSA M20

https://ibb.co/vHN8mkr

Re: Engine number BSA M20

Although there is a lack of "ditto" marks in the WM20 factory records, it looks to me as if engine no. WM20 864 may have been delivered without an associated frame number to the War Office in September 1939. The only entry, at the top of the page (engine no. 861) is "War Office London".

This might suggest that it was delivered as a spare engine.

The factory records show complete dispatched machines. Presumably they also kept lists of numbered components but these don't seem to have survived.

Re: Engine number BSA M20

Rik,

Thank you for your reply.
At least it confirms my suspicion that the engine is from late 1939. It could verry well have been a spare engine..

Giel

Re: Engine number BSA M20

Giel, here is the entry. Sorry that it doesn't help much !

WM20-864

Re: Engine number BSA M20

Rik,

Thanks again. Now I have a good idea where the engine most likely ended up and I have confirmed my suspicion that it's a 1939 build engine.
Maybe someday I will find a 39 frame to go with it and build it back up again. I love the look off the early BSA's

Giel

Re: Engine number BSA M20

Saying that the early BSA ledgers are a complete chaos would be the understatement of the year... I will try to explain. Before the war (KM20 production), bikes didn't have "matching numbers". Engine numbers were listed in the engine ledgers, and frame numbers were listed in the frame ledgers:

Engine ledgers:
- The KM20 engine numbers sequence was listed in the KM20 engine ledger,
- The KM21 engine numbers sequence was listed in the KM21 engine ledger,
- There were also engine ledgers for the KM22, KM23, ...
Against every engine number we can find the frame number in which the engine was fitted. As all these engines used one single frame number sequence, I think it is easy to understand that there was no logic at all in the relation between frame number and engine number.

Frame ledger:
All the KM series bikes used "the same" frame, so all the frame numbers were listed (in sequence) in one single frame ledger.
Against every frame number we can find the engine number of the engine that was fitted into this frame. This was of course a mixture of KM20, KM21, ... engines. Once again, I think it is easy to understand that there was no logic at all in the relation between frame number and engine number.

After the invasion of Poland on September 1st 1939, Britain declared war on Germany on September 3rd 1939. A couple of days later the "war production" started. The KM20 now became a WM20 (W for War production). The first WM20 was frame number WM20.111, and the first batch (frame numbers WM20.111 - WM20.251) all went to the Ministry of Supply (contract number unknown). Up until frame number WM20.243 there were still no "matching numbers" (engine numbers were chosen "at random" from the WM20.1700 - WM20.1900 range (*). This was a continuation of the KM20 engine numbers sequence).

From 13/09/1939 onwards (frame number WM20.244 to be precise), BSA started using "matching numbers" for all the military production bikes (contracts for the Ministry of Supply, Dutch Army, Irish Army).(**) But the civilian bikes that were still being produced in between the military contracts still had non-matching numbers (with exceptions). These were no longer numbers in the WM20.1700 - WM20.1900 range, but for the civilian bikes they were now using up the pre WM20.244 engine numbers. (***)

Back to our engine number WM20.864. When we take a look at the engine ledger, the WM20.864 line is empty. We could assume that they forgot to add the "ditto" marks under WM20.861. In that case the numbers WM20.861 up until WM20.900 would all be military bikes. If this would be the case, we should also find the numbers WM20.861 up until WM20.900 in the frame ledger, with matching engine numbers (**).

Schermafbeelding-2024-03-14-om-11-31-36

Now let's have a look at the frame ledger. Here we can see that frame numbers WM20.861 up until WM20.900 are all civilian production (***). Two remarks:
- WM20.861 is military production according to the engine ledger, so should have had matching numbers. But frame number WM20.861 is civilian production according to the frame ledger. Obviously there's an error somewhere, I think the engine ledger is wrong.
- The WM20.864 entry in the frame ledger is empty... Did they forget to fill in the data, or was frame number WM20.864 never produced? But as it was most probably a civilian bike, the engine wouldn't have been WM20.864 anyway...

Schermafbeelding-2024-03-14-om-11-26-36

So let's assume that this engine comes from a civilian motorcycle. The early civilian bikes had engine numbers in the WM20.1700 - WM20.1900 range (*), and the later civilian production bikes had pre WM20.244 engine numbers. (***) So WM20.864 doesn't fit in either of these sequences...

I've also trawled through the WM20 frame ledger in search for engine number WM20.864, but I couldn't find it... Conclusion: this engine wasn't fitted to a frame (civilian or military). Rest the possibility that this was a spare engine, presumably from an early military contract...

Hope this helps... 😊

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

Re: Engine number BSA M20

Wow, that's a lot of work Jan.

Mark

email (option): pes.sales@btconnect.com

Re: Engine number BSA M20

Jan,

That looks like a lot off work you put in this indeed!
It amazes me you could find all this information and can't thank you enough for all the work.

It is still a bit off a mystery this engine, but I have a much clearer picture off wat went on. I'm happy whith the answer you could give me and for now I will assume it was a spare engine from an early contract and it did not come with a frame..

Giel

Re: Engine number BSA M20

According to the engine book above, engine no. 872 was fitted to frame no. 143 but the frame book entry for 143 shows engine no. 1872 ! :grimacing: It was sent to the War Office on 12/9/1939 though.

Engine 1872 is not shown as fitted to a frame. Presumably 143 should have been entered there ?

Frame 227 was indeed fitted with engine 868.

I despair, I really do ! :grinning:

Re: Engine number BSA M20

Typos! Must have been 1872 and 1868, these numbers would fit perfectly in the 1700 - 1900 range:

The first WM20 was frame number WM20.111, and the first batch (frame numbers WM20.111 - WM20.251) all went to the Ministry of Supply (contract number unknown). Up until frame number WM20.243 there were still no "matching numbers" (engine numbers were chosen "at random" from the WM20.1700 - WM20.1900 range (*).

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

Re: Engine number BSA M20

Nice work Jan!!!

You do genius stuff with numbers.

Cheers,

Lex

email (option): welbike@welbi**.net

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