Hello, I’ve just purchased an Ariel WNG, Sept 1941 RAF. The bike is a project/in pieces but I want to restore it to its original RAF colour and I assume with RAF Roundels.
What was the original colour for a 1941 RAF bike (KG3?) and does anyone have a colour photo of the roundel on a petrol tank?
Thanks in advance for any help, cheers.
A WNG RAF bike would have been the same color as all other WD bikes during the war.
The blue/grey was the peacetime color
My RAF WNG was in that respect wrongly painted (by me) but I liked it as it was different to most other WD bikes.
picture shows the roundel I handpainted on the tank.
Last year JOB had an original RAF blue speedo, and several Lucas tail lamp parts have also been noted in blue, so I do wonder if there was a contract of Ariels supplied in this colour?
Are there any Ariel factory ledgers that may give a clue?
The ledgers don't specify a colour for Chris' W/NG unfortunately. But we do know that it was despatched from the factory on September 4th 1941.
Chris' bike comes from a contract for which we do not even have a contract number!
Hope Messrs O&M don't mind me putting this page on the forum... 😊
I have lots of W/NG RAF pictures with census numbers around RAF 94xxx - 95xxx, but these are all contract C/S14218 bikes. I also found RAF 30547, this is an earlier bike. Could be from Chris' contract, as there only seems to be one other early RAF contract, for 107 frames and 87 engines...?
The Ariel in the pictures above doesn’t have the typical “hooded” blackout mask yet, which came out “halfway 1941”. It also has a rear mounted air filter, and although I’ve got several pictures of motorcycles with rear mounted air filters, I’ve never come across such a filter before!
Last year JOB had an original RAF blue speedo, and several Lucas tail lamp parts have also been noted in blue, so I do wonder if there was a contract of Ariels supplied in this colour?
Are there any Ariel factory ledgers that may give a clue?
But that would probably be 1940 rather than 1941?
Rob
Rob, I had several NOS Lucas MT1130 taillamps, in RAF blue, and still have an MT110 in same colour, so it was for sure used pre-war.
Speedo's were still made for the Army in the 1960's or was it a pin drive?
Anyway, nothing here indicates the use of the RAF blue between 1940-1945.
Ok, interesting, then some stuff from 1941 got painted blue (speedo's with a plate on the back were used up to
end of 1941, same as the fag end taillamps, too many accidents with those, so was short lived) and expands the timeline a bit, but all these accesories may have been painted blue, but that doesn't mean the whole bikes were ofcourse.
The last reference that I've seen to blue vehicles is in the Ministry of Supply summary ledger for Norton contract 294/C/9891 (Demand 15/2/41) which is annotated :-
"Note 19/3/41. Agree to accept 20 motorcycles finished in RAF Blue-Grey - delivery already effected. All future machines to be Khaki Green No.3 as WD Spec MC205"
It sounds as if they weren't best pleased. It's probably unlikely that any vehicles were delivered in blue after this.
Presumably any deliveries of BSA or Ariel to the RAF prior to December 1939 or so would have been blue-grey and fitted with MT1130 ? The problem is that neither production records, nor contract info seems to show any.
Bloody Hell Lex. I think I remember that "Nathan" paid over £800 for one. I've only ever had one original which was only about 30 Quid at the time. It was black over Khaki.
According to Steve Madden, At the outbreak of hostilities, all RAF vehicles were hurriedly painted with drab paint even if aircraft or hanger paint had to be used. All subsequent vehicle were supplied from the factories in service colour. Ron
In this picture it looks to me as though they couldn't wait to get back to the firms colours and have painted one half of their Indian 741 tanks in gloss RAF Blue. Ron
Rob, my thinking was that the MT1130 ceased to be fitted during late 1939. By 1940, BSA seem to have been using the MT110...Assuming they are a British RAF colour and not produced for an overseas customer ?
I attempted to type "RAF MT" a couple of times in my reply but the letters disappeared. Now I know at least where they went...into the title box. What I don't understand is how !
In the end, I gave up and wrote something shorter :grinning:
Nice speedo! I checked my files, and have a pin drive with a 3-'42 date listed, an Anti-Clock model, believed to be for a Royal Enfield, after that the more common later type was used.
So what bikes were listed as an RAF contract in the beginning of 1942?? It could just be that the speedo's were blue, and the rest of the bike green or brown ofcourse.
I'm puzzled by the speedo. The application of paint to a dull-chromed "ridged" bezel doesn't conform with pre-war practice. The screws from the type plate have clearly been removed at least once. What might the small "SR/42" indicate ? "Service Repair" perhaps ?
Presumably if an instrument went back to Smiths for overhaul, for guarantee purposes, it would be fitted with a data plate bearing the current date ?
We'll never know, but could this instrument have been a service-repair for a pre-war RAF Norton sidecar outfit or similar ? It's quite likely that those in use for tasks such as ferrying messages and staff around the Air Ministry might not have been re-painted.
RAF blue Lucas or Smiths instruments are bizarre, but I'll ask another question: 99% of the "projects" that have been bought by forum members still have some original paint somewhere (under a coat of post war civilian paint, or inside the brake drums, or inside the primary chain cover, or inside the headlight, ...). I'm keeping a Register for the WD Royal Enfields, and I have to say that I have never come across original RAF blue paint on RAF contract bikes (and there are a few...). Has anybody ever seen original RAF blue on an unrestored bike...? (BSA, Norton, Ariel, ...)
Lex the only WD bikes with an Anti Clock speedo were the Royal Enfield WD/G and WD/L. Both mine came without a working speedo. I acquired a NOS 1942 dated AC speedo with the correct part number on the brass tag which is on my WD/G. For the WD/L, David Woods reworked a standard pin drive speedo for me to reverse the action. Ron
The last reference that I've seen to blue vehicles is in the Ministry of Supply summary ledger for Norton contract 294/C/9891 (Demand 15/2/41) which is annotated :-
"Note 19/3/41. Agree to accept 20 motorcycles finished in RAF Blue-Grey - delivery already effected. All future machines to be Khaki Green No.3 as WD Spec MC205"
It sounds as if they weren't best pleased. It's probably unlikely that any vehicles were delivered in blue after this.
Presumably any deliveries of BSA or Ariel to the RAF prior to December 1939 or so would have been blue-grey and fitted with MT1130 ? The problem is that neither production records, nor contract info seems to show any.
This reference by Rik is the only real evidence I have seen, but there don't appear to be any RAF Norton contracts prior to this to explain Nortons "mistake".
We know there was a policy to use up existing stocks before changes in basic camoflage schemes but it doesn't help here.
It appears the 50 post office BSA M20 outfits delivered in 1942 were in KG3 with a GPO made red box body but may have them been repainted later.
In my opinion there is not enough evidence yet to say that some machines (Ariel, BSA, Matchless, etc) delivered in 1940-41 weren't blue, but even if they were they were probably soon overpainted, so you could argue a factory finish, but it would be very hard to explain its appearence in a Normandy event, but maybe its no worse than taking a BEF period vehicle on a 30 Corps tour?:smiley:
There were definite pre-war Norton sales to the Air Ministry, at least 300 in 1939. I'm not sure why they don't appear in O&M - there is next to no contract info available though, but the Norton ledgers show a fair number, both solo and combination.
It's likely that this well-known image shows a pre-war RAF outfit in gloss blue-grey, contrasting with the matt KG van behind.
With Jaeger-drive speedo from the look of it..and an M1130 on the sidecar ?
I imagine that such a blue sidecar outfit, if it was in use in London alongside red buses would not immediately have been repainted ?