After blasting some pannier bag carriers I noticed the were stamped 'Midland'....That company was started in 1926 making a wide range of car, cycle and motorcycle accessories...

[' The Midland Gear Case Company, Allcroft Works, Hall Green, Birmingham produced the most amazing range of Bicycle, Motor Cycle and Car Accessories including Celluloid Chain Covers, Patent Express Chain Covers, Moleskin, Hidene and Leather Gear Cases, Tool Bags, Canvas Bags, Splashers, Saddle Covers, Motor Cycle Tool Bags, Tool Rolls, Inner Tube Carriers, Knee Grips, etc and Motor Car Radiator Muffs...']

Here's a 1953 advert for their post war pressed steel sets...I have a set of these on my Royal Enfield...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Does anyone know of any other wartime manufacturers of the WD pannier carriers?....Ian

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Hi Ian

Don't forget the same frames carried on in production for a long time after the war, both for the Triumph TRW and civilan use so the "Midland" frames aren't necessarily wartime.

Here is an image I saved from a previous discussion and I seem to remember another maker but I can't find it at the moment.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

OEC for these post war frames:




I have heard a story, don't know if it's true, that during the war a lot of these pannier frames were also made at technical schools. Fact is that there are umpteen variations in this simple design... Maybe it's a good idea to post some of the variations as well here.

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Those are really nice Jan...Where did you find them?...Ian

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Can't remember where I found these pictures Ian. Somewhere on the internet... 😊

Now could these be the same pannier frames as in your ad? They come from a B40 apparently:

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Those are the ones I have...The B40 carriers were much shallower...Ian

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Just did a google image search and indeed, the B40 pannier frames are smaller, as in your picture (is that beautiful bike yours Ian?)

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No Jan, I wish it was...It's part of the Mitchell Collection...A collection of military B40s....Funnily enough the GB40 I had years ago now resides only about 5 miles from my current address!!...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Well done Jan, OEC is what I remember being stamped on a pannier frame, at the time I thought it was a nice example of "War work" but maybe not.

And I have found pictures of the C.P.W frames with 1942 1943 and 1944 dates, but what does C.P.W stand for?

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

I've searched for CPW but come up with nothing...As usual it's probably a company that did related, but not necessarily the same work pre war....OEC....Could that be the Osborn Engineering Company in Southampton?...They were turned over to wartime production of different products...(they made the Panjandrum among other things!!).....Ian

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Remember that one from Dad's Army! 😂

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A great British invention that was as much danger to the operator as the target...:laughing: ...I must correct myself though, OEC were in Gosport, not Southampton....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Having done a fair bit of research into some Jerry can makers I think that the C.P.W marking is most likely that of the Cwmfellin Press Works, a small sub-factory of the large Richard Thomas steel concern of South Wales. (post war it became RTB (Richard Thomas & Baldwins), then later British Steel). During the war the CPW made 2 million cans (marked RTMP) and continued making them post war (marked RTB / CP&F).
Have a look at this film starting at 12:05 mins.
https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fplayer.bfi.org.uk%2Ffree%2Ffilm%2Fwatch-ingot-pictorial-no-6-1950-online%3Ffbclid%3DIwAR0872LjJ6_-Wn4NTs1mQTSvz4Gy-ppL0v4Pv7jNk1GmQxyWEPP41AH__QA&h=AT35kWfXTZVfFIl0DddFl-so777Uet5LqlBGoyY3F2x2qbS7_kNiG-_kuXVYqeaIyxXgLAF18ZQf-TS-MunyEboiXce4eNxUqgAJzqpwCWpFZ3nmY7BMMRhg8jjGcBSnZQ&__tn__=-UK-R&c[0]=AT3grQbE3RhzljWEsIy_2PHg07cwee6sZhMvv5C19C-URkGCk5txScMf1gHnetAws7wDNA9JjbZ_enA82E-bq_aK0T_cbqNax10NAUxg4iUpGnGqStZBPFiv1898NKts0hi_eN36oetEniiW4hjdknIlqOx5IA-WbNLp_vI

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Unfortunately it says "Location not authorised, BFI Player films cannot be played outside of the UK"... 😟

But I think your theory is very plausible.

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Unless this footage proves differently, I'm not so sure anymore. The only CPW jerry cans that I can find on the net are marked BSC-CPW, and they all seem to be post war (1960's, 1970's, 1980's)...

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Cwmfelin Press Works became part of Richard,Thomas and Baldwins in 1945...That in turn became part of the Iron and Steel Corporation of Great Britain in 1950/51...When that was broken up RTB were incorporated into the British Steel Corporation when it was formed in 1967....Cwmfellin did make Jerrycans postwar....
Getting back to Robs question it therefore seems highly likely CPW was Cwmfelin Press Works during the war and the probable manufacturer of the CPW bag carriers...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Richard Thomas Metals Products (R.T.M.P) were a company based in Swansea South Wales, some of their war work was the pressing of Jerry can halves & handles plus metal ammunition boxes these usually have R.T.M.P on the side of the cans or top of the ammo boxes, CPW is more likely another company that did light pressings, the PW part could stand for "press works", the C part could be anything a town for example, it's similar to other wartime pressings companies such as M.P.B (Morris Pressings Branch) based in Birmingham who also made Jerry cans & metal ammo boxes, as did R.O.C (Rubery Owen Company) based in Darlaston Staffs, and E.W.B (E.W.BLISS) based in Derby who both made cans & ammo boxes.

Picture of Cwmfelin Steel works, Swansea which became part of Richard, Thomas and Baldwins (formerly RTMP) in 1945...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

If the pannier frame manufacturers were main contractors then the answer should lie in the Ministry of Supply ledgers in the National Archives. Jan in particular did a lot of work copying pages containing anything vaguely motorcycle.

There are quite a number of contracts for pannier equipment, but all of them seem to be in the names of the various motorcycle manufacturers. No sign of any being supplied by others..This is not the case with some other items, where quite little known firms were supplying parts.

Unfortunately, as there were no wartime motorcycle manufacturers beginning with "C", I don't seem to have the relevant index page.

There is some work to do in Kew if anyone is close enough.

BSA M20 pannier frames are different to all other wd models fitted with pannier equipment, maybe they made them in house or used one specific outside company.

Some BSA related literature.

The DME circulars under the top priority "IMMEDIATE ACTION" as of 10/5/42 order them as an upgrade.





The upgrade diagram shows frames with mounting holes drilled right accross the bottom rail so are the universal pattern.





This post war spares list shows a different rear carrier for the spring frame but the carriers look the same and have the same BSA part number 66-6915, so that would indicate at least 16 years of use.

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The panniers were an option for the spring frame (and any others) as they were never fitted as standard....

I imagine as BSA would still have been supplying spares to the Army for as long as the M20 was in service they kept this type of pannier bag carrier available and took the opportunity to make sales to the public as well...They were also being produced for the Triumph TRW....Ian

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The BSA pannier frames had an extra slotted dished washer welded on, for use folded up with out the bags fitted, it's not on any other pannier frames on other models, it must have been a BSA only specification.

I've noted that difference Steve, but was not aware that it was a BSA thing. I just assumed it was either different manufacturers or economy measures.....Like the deletion of brass wing nuts. I'll have to have a look round and see how many "BSA" pannier racks I have! Ron

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I have a pair of the wing nut type and the "Matchless" sliding clip type and they both have 8 holes drilled in the bottom rail, in pairs so it appears they are theoretically universal.

And judging by the gap between the two top mounting holes being universal it would seem that the various makers made their machines to fit the frames?

1 2 - 3 4 - 5 6 - 7 8

Looking from the front of the frames (outside), my BSA is using 1 3 and 7 on the right hand side and 2 6 and 8 on the left

Which bottom rail holes do the other makes and models use?

Rob

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Yes, they are universal! Just like the universal saddles, made in a Terry design and in a Lycett design, by different manufacturers. But you could swap them around without any problem (unlike the earlier saddles).

Enfield uses 3 8 (LHS), 1 6 (RHS)
Matchless uses 1 2 8 (LHS), 1 7 8 (RHS)
Norton uses 1 2 7 8 (both sides)

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Did anyone use 4 and 5 or were they another waste of taxpayers money?

Rob:grinning:

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4 and 5 were a ploy to confuse the Germans...Ian

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Oh, I see what you mean now Steve, it's the dished washer halfway, not at the top of the hinge! As in the two pictures below. Stupid me... 😊




But anyway, the Norton frame also has this washer halfway. The original frame(s) could of course have been replaced on this Norton...

Edit: I've just had a look at all my BSA pictures, and I found three pictures where the inside of the hinges is visible. Guess what, all three of them have the dished washer halfway!





And I've found two Norton pictures, both with "plain" hinges:

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Hi Jan, I did some research a few years ago on pannier frames, going through original wartime photos and parts books, I ruled out Ariel and Royal Enfield due to the illustrations in the parts books, ruled out Matchless due to their slider type, ruled out Triumph with original photos of 3HWs & TRWs, which left BSA & Norton, didn't see any on Norton photos, but did see that some BSAs had them, that's how I narrowed that type to BSA, although can't never be 100% sure because the parts books aren't always correct, your Norton pannier frame photo is interesting, will see if I can find some wartime Norton photos with that type fitted.

Isn't it more likely that this was a time related modification/improvement, pannier frames are susceptible to vibration.

The early BSA (1942) modification drawings are just drawings but they show the washer at the top so I think if the middle washer had been there at the time it would have been shown.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

These pictures also show the rack has the the rear pillion seat supprt brackets extended below the cross member and bolted to the mudguard..This is not the case with later racks...Were those two extended brackets ever fitted?....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Yes I have seen these early carriers. note also the middle cross piece is tubular rather than flat section and I seem to remember some triangular gussets somewhere, I don't know if complete machines left the factory with this carrier for a period of time or if they were only used in the upgrade kits?

Rob

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My carrier has the extended legs to the mudguard and the tube cross piece with gussets. My pannier frames also have the midway washers. Ron

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I've had a good look through my catalogued Norton photographs and can find no examples of side stays featuring the secondary detents.

This is from the very last, curtailed WD contract...if they didn't have them, then I assume that none did.

A slight correction to Ian's post on the 11th regarding OEC (Osborne engineering company).. ..the company moved from Gosport,just across the water, to Pompey in 1933...
Since the 20's they were a motorcycle manufacturer (using proprietary engines,Blackburne ,JAP and more) by the time the war broke out they went into producing solely for the war effort including the panjandrum and aircraft parts...they had a reputation for slightly eccentric machines and were also involved in a scandal in 1930 regarding a world motorcycle land speed record.... they submitted some truly bonkers prototype military 3 wheeled vehicles to the government in the late 20's....(definately worth looking up the history on the marque.never a dull moment!)...I had a go on a mates OEC Commander, with the ludicrously complex " duplex" steering and it actually handled very well!........as a little footnote "Montgomery of Alemain" was portsmouth football club president postwar..!...regards to all you fine fellows...pip pip

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I've now looked at lots of BSA photographs and in most cases saying the washer is there is an enormous leap of faith, but it appears that when the washer is fitted the slot in the strut doesn't go all the way to the bottom.

There are photos of M20s with the slot all the way down but these machines are probably 1942 or before, I'm strugling to find later war M20s without the short slot so it appears that Steve may be right, BSAs were factory fitted with a specific pannier frame with middle washers except in the case of the retro kits and possible early on?

Rob

Early machine, long slot.





Later machine, short slot.

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