With the WM20 immobilised I'll rewire it. Standard Joe Lucas diagram with a couple of extra earths. What gauge wiring would be best, folks?
Well Bob , if you asked to buy a loom , you would get 10 responses , at greatly overpriced prices for a new loom ,
I have found very little response in the past from this forum , very poor !!
I get fare better response on the Facebook Forum's , far more helpful, then this lot :-(
As for the loom , I will be making one soon , 8 amp for General wire , and 17amp for Battery , I have found out !
I'm going to try this for mine.
https://pesltd.uk/?product=19-0690
Mark
email (option): pes.sales@btconnect.com
[' I get fare better response on the Facebook Forum's , far more helpful, then this lot...']
I haven't found the other forums to be anything like as good as this one personally and don't generally bother to visit them regularly...Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
Its true we are not getting the traffic here we used to but this remains a usefull resource, try typing wiring into the search box at the top and there will probably be an answer as requsested at the start of this thread.
I'm still determined to keep off facebook, Mr Zuckerberg has plenty of money already without me adding to it and I'm told its already becoming less popular with the younger generations who lets face it will become the future of this and every hobby.
Rob
email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk
Bob, have you seen the article on wiring in the technical section?
That has a description of the original rubber covered wire and coloured bands and the address of a company in the UK who supplies a cloth covered modern wire.
http://wdbsa.nl/wd-wiring.htm
I found that a silicon wire supplied by RS Components for test leads looks the part and being 1mm wire will more than satisfy any 6 volt current requirements.
With small pieces of coloured heat shrink added at the ends it definitely looks the part.
This was mentioned by someone else in a recent thread.
https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/hook-up-wire/2101252
Ray
I fully agree with Ian Wright and Rob Miller's opinions.
email (option): wd.register@gmail.com
The address in the tech section for WD wiring may have changed too.
Electrical Engineering Services 01204 884383 01204 884383
Quarryside, 301 Turton Rd
Tottington
Bury, Lancs
BL8 3QE
john@classicwiring.co.uk
Mark
email (option): pes.sales@btconnect.com
I was on the point of measuring up an original loom, but I see from the comments that the answer is almost certainly to be found on arse-about-facebook with its impossible search systems anyway.
If modern wiring is being used (and vinyl looks quite similar to rubber if Scotchbrited) then it needs to be borne in mind that the old rubber insulation was quite thick, so a similar outer diameter in vinyl-insulated wire will take you well over spec anyway...What is it you're aiming at ? Visually correct, simply functional or cheap as possible?
Thanks for the replies.
Ian, 8a & 17a sounds good to me.
I looked around the forum sites but couldn't find a discussion of specific wire gauges. The sections on authentic looms don't mention these. Perhaps someone will cite a post I didn't notice & prove me wrong.
The old wiring works but is a bit ropey in places & is a pretty large overall section, large enough to give problems around the headlight switch.
So I'll be using standard modern wire, given the simplicity I may just use one colour- black. I'm just seeking opinions on what gauge I should use for this.
I have found very little response in the past from this forum , very poor !!
I get fare better response on the Facebook Forum's , far more helpful, then this lot :-(
As for the loom , I will be making one soon , 8 amp for General wire , and 17amp for Battery , I have found out !
This is a fourm for serious WWII motorcycles owners & repairers
As it is not Feaces Book there is no obligation for any one to respond within 15µm seconds
Patience is a virtue that is very much needed noe days in general and in particulr if one is going to enjoy life with WWI motorcycles
Now if people with no appreciation about how lax the security is on Feaces Book are happy to let every theif on the planet know what they have in their garage, where it is and when they are not there or in many cases where they are right now then they are welcome to use Feaces Book but I for one will die before I sign up
Way too many property thiefs generated from Feaces Book messages and infact there re criminal gangs thta will already have logged everything that you own & have compiled lists for property theives to purchase from them .
This is not speculation , I have customers in Major Crimes division & Internet Crimes Division who regularly purchase this information off the Dark Web to see what is there
They used to message locals to alert them but some idiot took legal actions to prevent the latter but when they do community lectures they bring along their data bases so individuals can look themselves up and most are horrifed to find that every vehicle & houshold product they own is on the picking list
The property crime division absolutely hate this because having purchased the information there is nothing to link the criminals to the victim
The WWW is a very dangerous place and children accessing porn is the least for one to worry about.
There is now enough information about most Feaces Book users for AI apps to impersonate anyone , access almost any bank account , hyjack any ones phone
Again not speculation
this year over 9,000 Australians have had criminals hyjack their identities , get a replacement SIM card for that persons phone number log into all of their financial accounts empty their bank accounts and the only thing you will notice is your phone will suddenly go "emergency services only" and by the time you get onto your phone company to see what is happening you are destitute .
Even the phone companies that requirea live video stream of you saying your name have been hacked using AI .
So I will stay on forums where I can use a screen name so untill their servers are hacked my personal details remain safe
And just so you know I was one of those who had their Medibank detail hacked and got a ransom email
Now I do not care if every one on the planet know I had RA , tinea in my groin & currently have a double hernia but I do object to every one knowing what is in my shed when Iam away at ralles etc
I think 3 day's is far too long to wait for a reply to a basic question :-(
When I have asked on here for part's needed , I have had far more scammers reply then I ever have on Facebook.
The forum is only as good as it's members, read into that what you wish !
When I have asked on here for part's needed , I have had far more scammers reply then I ever have on Facebook.
The forum is only as good as it's members, read into that what you wish !
Rob
email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk
People seem frequently not to avail themselves of all the information in the Technical Section either, which those who do contribute to the forum have put on record for the benefit of all...
When I consider how much of my time and effort I've put into contributing to this forum to help others it annoys me that the extent of some peoples efforts is only to criticise...
Never mind, I'll look forward in due course to seeing your completed document on all aspects of wiring lodged in the Technical Section after you've found your answers and I'll be able to benefit from your knowledge and effort...or not:laughing: ....Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
Well Ian you expectations are way too high and you need to get a grip on reality .
Some people use phones to view forums which I am sure are surgically inserted into some part of their anatomy
Others view the forum IF & WHEN THEY HAVE THE TIME TO DO IT
I do not recal any forum rule that stated we had to view it 15 times a day and answer every thread the instant it is posted .
I for one only vist 3 or 4 times a week unless there is a thread that has my interest currently running.
The generally considered polite etiquette in civalised forums if a poster has not recieved an answer in what they consider a reasonable time is to bump their thread , usually with another post saying "anyone" or simply "bump"
This then alerts those who spend an inordinately large amount of time trying to help others for which they rarely get a thank you let alone any financial benefit that the post is unanswered and promts then to find an answer even if they do not know without consulting text books & manuals
I for one deliberately did no answer Bobs post because I make looms for convienance & performance so do things like fit plugs & sockets .
One of the reasons is modern wires do not fit into Lucas bullets properly unles you start using 10A & 20 A wires what ever gauge or mm cross section they happen to be .
I find you ascertion that we are only here for our own financial gain quite repugnant expecially considering just how may parts I have given away over the years for nothing more than the postage costs .
Finally scammers are not forum members they are forum viewers looking for an oppertunity to make a quick buck.
It is an unfortunate by-product of emails , SMS and the 24/7 on line modern culture that people end up with a massive sense of entittlement and assume that they are so important that what ever the request, it will be met instantanoiusly .
Mobile phones can be a wonderful tool but unfortunately they have become abused
When I am talking to some one & my phone rings I ignore it , that is what message bank is for
However as of late my customers ge agitaed if I do not stop talking to them and anwer the phone call which IMHO is the height of rudeness .
IT was good of you to respond to Bens thread but the nature of your response shows you have some serious attitude problems that will ultimately cause your grief
I stand by what I say , if Bob asked to buy a loom he would have had a reply in less then 3 days , only when I replied did other people , the truth hurts sometimes !
Rob
email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk
And when are you putting your wiring article on the Technical Section...?....You should try doing what you expect others to do (and quickly it seems)...I'd reasonably expect it to be less than three days before it's completed...:laughing: Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
I told Bob what I would be using , if you care to look Rob !
Who said anything about a Article , I just said it's piss poor Bob never got a reply to a question in over 3 day's !
All the information needed to make a loom is on the net , I know very little about wiring , but made a loom for my Norton , and repaired the loom on the TI50V , end of the day its just a old bike !
No, I didn't think you'd be contributing really....
Trevors comments on speed of reply are relevant, it's not like people do this for a job with all those constraints and targets, rather they just try and be helpful and pass on information when they are not engaged in leading the rest of their lives...
Perhaps you judge other peoples voluntary inclination to help a bit harshly as you seem to expect instant response to any query but aren't exactly a font of information yourself...Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
So facebook is better because its quicker? surley its still down to a human response?
Rob
email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk
I see bob's post and thought , interesting as I need to know too , waited , and waited and waited , nothing , so went on the net and found out myself , then I posted a reply , who knows how long it would have been if I had not ?
Well I know of 4 places that sell looms and 2 that I would recommend so a
"Where can I get a loom ?" or for that matter "where can I get ( name any part )" is a quick & easy reply
Where as "what size wire " requires one to actualy know the wire size in the right colours.
Now wire size is more than just the current capacity
There are quite a few variables like the diameter and number of the strands and the thickness of the insulation
Now this does not matter for the light switch because they are screw in connection onto ( hopefully ) a short piece of solder covered wire
However the right size for the bullet connectors is a different matter and is even more difficult depending upon if Bob wants to use crimped on connections where the external diameter of the wire is critical for a strong joint or soldered on bullets where the strand diameter is critical .
It is piss easy to say "divide the wattage of what is connected by your voltage then multiply by 1.2 to get the required amperage "
As previously mentioned I use scrap wire retrieved from old vans but the 10A wire is physically too small to be crimped to a modern bullet terminal as it will not clamp to the insulation and on top of that the strands are very thin and will work harden and fracture in no time flat if connected to a solder on bullet then we come to the push in dynamo & headlamp terminals where the strands in the 10A wire are so thin that they shear when pushed in
This is why I use uninsulated crip connectors that pierce the insulation then shrink wrap them before inserting into plugs /sockets.
Some thing that most WM20 owners are not willing to do as they value original apperance over functionality
Now if Bob had said "I am stranded in ( anywhere) and need urgent wiring help" he would have been swamped with replies.
But what he actually said is while the bike is off the road I would like to rewire it"
The inference is it was not URGENT so did not require an immediate responce .
YOU are the person who decided that Bob needed an urgent reply, not Bob
And making some effort to work out / find out basic capacity was good of you to do
Adding the insulting & abusive after note was not called for and says a large amount about your character .
Now Bob,
As you have now given us some more information hese is a few things I do
For the stop / tail I use 5 core trailer wire because it is compact and comes in a nice black loom
On my bike, that has a hinged plunger rear guard fitted, the trailer wire fits nicely & neatly inside the rib
When I did a bolt on guard I also used the same wire
I just make it long enough so the 3 pin plug I fit will hide behind the number plate bracket
The 3 pin plug saves continually joining the faded wires incorrectly in the dark
The conductors in trailer wire ( IN Aust ) are 18AWG which are too thin for a Lucas bullet
18 AWG is good for 5 A over about 8 foot ( 30 watt on our 6V bikes )
I use the same wire to go to the dip /horn switch on the handlebars ( like I said , not std wiring )
Again it is neat and comes in a nice black loom
The battery is also fitted with a plug that is handed and hidden under the saddle along with the 3 or 4 fuses
By fitting the plug I can then paint over the battery terminals with Liquid Electrical tape so there will never ever be any corrosion thus the bike will always get full battery voltage
Now 16 AWG is what is generally used on British bikes because it fits into Lucas terminals nicely
14 AWG can be "stuffed into them but you have to work hard to get them into the terminals
And 18 AWG needs a bit of heatshrink to compensate for the smaller diameter .
If it is automotive vinyal coated wire these should all should have 12 to 16 wires inside.
If they have more then they are audio cable and the wires will fracture and if fewer then it is AC wire and will not crimp particularly well
Now for the green & yellow dynamo wires.
They can be also be 16 AWG because for the maximunm dynamo output of 80 W (13 A ) 16AWG wire is good for around 4 foot
You could use 14 AWG it is a bit thicker and is good for 6 foot @ 13 A continious and that rarely happens
So if you are going for a single roll of wire go for 16 or 14 AWG
On 12 V bikes voltage drop is not so much of a problem but on 6 V bikes it is
Some time back between 2000 & 2010 I did an article on rewiring Cliff's WM20 for the club mag.
If I can dig it up I will post it
I usually fuse both sides of the battery plus the horn & stop light
For them I use ganged blade fuses that clip together gluded to length of thin flat bar that I drop down the seat frame tube so again they are out of the way and inconspicious
15A for the battery 5 A for the stop light & 10A for the horn
I do this because over the years short circuits in the stop lights seem to happen most regularly.
Not a problem on a magneto bike but a disaster if you have battery ignition.
Thanks again Ian for your help,Trevor too with this piece & the others who suggested ideas.
I'll be using Lucas bullet terminals so will probably go with Trevor's idea of 16AWG wire.
Probably just the one colour too.
As I said before, the existing wiring's pretty basic, just the Lucas diagram in everyone's manuals plus a couple of extra earths.
No electric horn, use that circuit for the brake light. I had a bulb horn but took it off when it stopped working- screamed obscenities are more emotionally satisfying.
The bike won't be going anywhere for a while but all its lights will work.
You can bend in the headlight sockets & the headlight shell ground socket but you have no alternative for the dynamo sockets and the std Lucas bullets do not fit in there .
In the back of my mind some one had some sort of a conversionfor them but I can not remember where I saw it and it is not on file .
FWIW I am on 9 BSA forums and get around 20 club magazines in various formats .
Back in the days of paper I would just photocopy stuff that should be remembered & shove the copy in the box
Now days there is a mix & different computers, phones & file formats etc etc etc so the idea gets remembered then the detail gets lost
The previous president had a similar M20 horn.
A farting flea would be the best way to describe the note
I can clearly remembe an inspection day and when the inspector hit the horn he looked at Mark asking "What do you do in an emergency ?"
The respons was F--- O-- C--- loud enough to be clearly heard in the factory unit next door as they came in to see what was happening expecting to see some sort of violnet confrontation.
The inspector shook his head, chuckled and ticked the horn box .
We all had a good laugh .
Those were the days !!!
Trevor
I know what you mean about the dynamo sockets. I have a small number of carefully preserved connectors for them. I'm not much good at soldering them.
Yes, those were the days.
['I can clearly remember an inspection day and when the inspector hit the horn he looked at Mark asking "What do you do in an emergency ?"
The respons was F--- O-- C--- loud enough to be clearly heard in the factory unit next door as they came in to see what was happening expecting to see some sort of violnet confrontation.
The inspector shook his head, chuckled and ticked the horn box .
We all had a good laugh .
Those were the days !!!...']
The local British bike dealer who used to do my MOTs always left the horn till last...He'd press it once and if it worked he'd say..'Quick, get it out of here while it's still working!'....:laughing:
I have an intense dislike for Lucas horns...They frequently wouldn't work on bikes I bought and I can rarely keep one going for 12 months, even the ones I've had reconditioned...
Generally I've found the 12volt versions to be longer lasting than the 6 volt ones...Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
Interesting conversation, but I don't understand, why people, like Mark Cook, keep pushing for the very incredibly wrong products, have said this before, and will keep saying it, Mark, nothing personal, you do great work on stuff you make yourself, but some other stuff isn't worth to peddle, as it's so obviously wrong!
Anyway, I have said soooo much about this topic already, and I know it's not that easy, but Ian Wright gets it too, so about FB, there's sooo much desinformation there, and I try to follow up, and try to set it right, but sometimes it's just too much.
My 2 p. here.
Cheers,
Lex
email (option): welbike@welbi^^.n
Lex, not everyone has your tastes, all I do is offer options.
I don't agree with many things posted here, but I respect others opinions.
Mark
email (option): pes.sales@btconnect.com
Yep, I agree...I'm not concerned about absolute 'originality' as long as overall the bike looks the part with nothing that jumps out at the average enthusiast...
As most know from previous posts IMO once the bike has been restored it isn't original anyway, just a representation and it's a fact not everyone wants the same thing...There's no international standard after all....
For example,mine is now more or less 100% blasted stainless fasteners and fittings where cadmium would have been used...I think it's the best substitue visually and is certainly the most durable finish...Purists will hate it though..The wiring is a similar thing.....Here's one I made earlier as they say...Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
During the years these bikes were built, the wiring looms would've been changed slightly, wouldn't they? Small detail differences between contracts, availability of components?
I gave in to forum bullying!
Black silicon wire and coloured heat shrink.
And so much of it!
Eight colours
If anyone else is in fear of the forum bullies, I have plenty of spare.
Mark
email (option): pes.sales@btconnect.com
Ah, rivet counters to people feeling being bullied 1-0
Thanks,
Lex
email (option): welbike@welbi**.net
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email (option): johankaroro@gmail.com
There's a Nuovo Falcone forum and a facebook page. Folks don't use the forum so much now, so it's more difficult to get up to date info from that and just about impossible to get info using facebook as a research archive. Facebook is pretty useless for that. This forum is easy to navigate and easy to get the necessary info on wiring using the SEARCH button....
I don't blame folks for not wasting their time on a query when the required info is obtainable at the press of that button. The depth of knowledge here is over and above any other forum I've used, and having several old bikes I use a lot of forums. Some are excellent and some so so, and it seems to depend on the age of the participants. Tribal Elders....