a friend has his grandads bike that he had in Italy, it has sat since 1986 and he is in the process of just making it run, can anyone shed some light on it by the numbers, i have attached 3 pics (hopefully)

frame is WM20 7133 on the downtube by the horn

engine is KM20 2436

any help greatly appreciated

https://ibb.co/JxLMHfQ

https://ibb.co/72zVThT

https://ibb.co/GsKnLBk

email (option): taybrig@shaw.ca

Hi Kevin,

Nice one!
Frame number WM20.7133 was despatched on 16/10/1939, destination Ministry of Defense, Dublin.
Engine number KM20.2436 was despatched on 3/7/1939, destination War Office, London.

Jan

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

Thanks Jan, am i right in assuming its a civvie Deluxe ?

at some point it had an engine swap then

speedometer is missing
it has a centre stand
valanced mudguards

Your frame is indeed listed as a "D/L" (deluxe) frame in the ledgers, but not a civilian one as it went to the Ministry of Defense in Dublin.

The BSA motorcycles in the Irish Army were issued with a ZC or ZD prefix registration number, as in the picture below. I think Mick Walsh and / or John O Brien have a list which puts the frame number against the Irish Army registration number. If we have this Irish reg number we might be able to find a war time picture of your bike...

There's one thing that I don't understand though: on all the Irish BSA pictures that I have, the bikes have a rear valanced mudguard and a non-valanced front mudguard. Your bike has two valanced mudguards. Replaced at some time...?

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

Hi jan
There were various models of K series delivered to Dublin - some in small numbers as probably evaluation models - most came in a batch later into the year - but smaller shipments had been received with specs differing such as
Panel tanks
Hand change
Front valence guard
Rear valence guard
Pie crust oil tank / top
Locking tool box
Horn & light switches on handlebar controls
To name a few

The main deliveries later came with
Non panel tank
Std fr guard
Valence rear
Std oil tank
Locking tool box
Field stand
Nife battery

I have some photos of early bikes but none really clear

Haven’t had time to study numbers v registration mark - but this frame if in service before Dec 31st 1939 would have had a ZC prefix with ZD starting in January 1940 - continued by Dublin City council until 1946 due to the war onoing

I’ll look see what I have
Br
Job

email (option): jonnyob1@googlemail.com

John just sent me these pictures with early (ZC) bikes, source Military Archives in Dublin.

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

The gearbox mounting plates are probably from a post war bike...The brackets that allow the fitment of a center stand are riveted to these later type gearbox plates....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Hi Jan and Kevin,
Happy New Year,great to see another M20 been brought ba ck into service hopefully. I've had a look at what I have on the Irish Army M20s and I don't have that one, but John may have it listed.
We,John and I, were to do another trip to the archive before Christmas but had to pospone, but we are due to go again soon.We will see if we can find it listed. Looking for WM20-7104 also, so from the same batch.

email (option): mickwalsh57@gmail.com

thanks so much everyone

does anyone know what the number on the tank would have been

email (option): taybrig@shaw.ca

It's a puzzle how an Irish contract frame ended up in Italy with a British contract engine and then on to Canada...unless BSA had slipped up again and maybe used the frame number twice, perhaps with one on a spare. BSA were either the most inefficient factory in the world when it came to documenting despatches, or they were fiddling something, and I can't quite work out what.

The best option may be to base the WD serial on the engine number ?

Bingo! Not an Irish frame (notwithstanding that WM20.7133 is entered in the frame ledgers with destination Ministry of Defense in Dublin). Looks as if Rik is right, this frame number must have been used twice!

- So according to the BSA frame ledger, the frame with number WM20.7133 "definitely" went to Ireland (if Mick or John can confirm).
- If we take a look at O&M, we find frame numbers "WM20.5001 to 7099" plus "WM20.7201 to ?" for British contract C5110. I had crossed this out in my book, and replaced these numbers by "WM20.5001 to 13100". The reason why I came to this conclusion? Well, there are lots of C5110 bikes in the Key Cards, and when I look at the numbers of these Key Card entries, there is no doubt about it. (The Key Cards do include frame numbers WM20.7152 and WM20.7177, so O&M were definitely wrong).

So if this would have been a British contract bike, it would explain why it ended up in Italy with a British contract engine installed!

Next question: census number.
- Based on the engine number: C3914495
- Based on the frame number: C3930553

I found two pictures with "close" numbers, both bikes were serving in France / Belgium with the BEF.

Jan

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

John and Mike say they haven't found WM20 7133 in the Irish records (yet), so maybe this isn't proof that two WM20 7133 frames existed but just the desiniation written in the BSA factory ledger was wrong, these ledgers were only for BSAs use during production I don't suppose they had any idea that we would get so excited about them all these years later.

However this is a great opportunity to find out with further research in Ireland.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Contract C5110 is extremely complex.

- It was originally a contract for 2777 bikes (census numbers C3928419 - C3931195).
- Then the contract was amended and they added another 1000 bikes (census numbers C3934710 - C3935709).
- Then they added another 2000 bikes (census numbers C4105401 - C4107400).
- Then there was another batch of 2223 bikes (census numbers C4123773 - C4125995).
- Then there was a final batch of 100 bikes (census numbers C4137042 - C4137141).
This makes a total of 8100 bikes. But according to the Chilwell "Receipt Card", this was a contract for 8000 bikes, which should be the sum of the 5 batches. And it looks as if the last batch was produced to compensate for 100 bikes that weren't delivered (because they went to Ireland...?)

This theory can be confirmed by the BSA frame book:
- Frames #5001 - #7100 (2100 bikes): destination War Office London (this destination was filled in at the top of each page, and copied with " symbols for the rest of the lines on the page)
- Frames #7101 - #7104 (4 bikes): destination Ministry of Defense Dublin (this destination was written over the " symbols, so the destination had been changed)
- Frames #7105 - #71144 (40 bikes): destination "War Office London" was overwritten with "Ministry of Defense Dublin", and this was copied for the rest of the page with " symbols.
- Frames #7145 - #7200 (56 bikes): the destination "War Office London" at the top of the page was crossed out, and replaced by the new destination "Ministry of Defense Dublin", and this was also copied for the rest of the page with " symbols
- Frames #7200 - #13100 (5900 bikes): destination War Office London




So it looks as if the final batch of 100 bikes (census numbers C4137042 - C4137141) has indeed been added to the contract to compensate for the 100 bikes that had all of a sudden been despatched to Ireland!

This looks like a nice theory, and maybe Mick / John will find proof in the Irish Archives.

But... If numbers #7101 - #7200 went to Ireland, then why do we find numbers #7152 and #7177 in the British Key Cards, with matching census numbers? And why did the supposedly Irish bike (with which this discussion all started) end up in Italy, with a British contract engine? Please John / Mick, the whole world is eagerly awaiting the results of your research! 😄

Jan

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

Hi jan
Our planned trip in December was put off due to me getting Ill - Michael & I hopefully will go again together later in January -

We have quite a few anomalies on numbers we want to check on & it’s easier with 2 sets of eyes etc to get through the records

I have a KM series frame here I need to track too - with sidecar lugs - 4952 but - under the 4 it seems there was a 7
So the frame is either 4952 or 7952

More mysteries

Jo’b

email (option): jonnyob1@googlemail.com

Ho John,

Frame #4952 was indeed despatched to the "Dept. of Defense" in Dublin.
I have lots of examples where somebody mis-stamped a number and stamped the correct number over the mistake. So I'd go for 4952, not 7952 (which is far too big for KM production anyway).

Cheers,
Jan

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

Following my previous post... Just had a look at the engine ledger. No overwritten or crossed out destinations here:
- Destination "War Office - London" up until #7100
- Destination "Ministry of Defense - Dublin" from number #7101 onwards.
The WM BSAs had matching numbers, which makes separate frame and engine ledgers unnecessary. But they were used to separate books, and that's how they continued, notwithstanding the fact that both books contained exactly the same information! It looks as if the frame ledger was the "master" ledger, and all the data from the frame ledger were copied in the engine ledger. Obviously the errors weren't copied, so no overwritten or crossed out destinations here...

But: the "Ministry of Defense (Dublin)" entries continue up until number #7239 (139 bikes) in the engine ledger, where the "Ministry of Defense (Dublin)" entries in the frame ledger stopped at #7200 (100 bikes). Must have been an error in the engine ledger me thinks... 🧐

Jan

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

Yes, factory misstamp, i would say..

Not sure, the 4 looks to be smaller.

Lex

email (option): welbike@welbi**.net

I've enlarged and printed the picture, and measured the numbers. The 4 has the same height as the 5 and the 2. It's the 9 that is 10% taller... 🧐 Again something that is not really unusual with these old stamps.

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com