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Re: Control Levers Amal Bowden Doherty

These are from Matchless spares lists and show that some contracts were split between early Bowden and Amal

mc01

mc02

mc03

mc04

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Re: Control Levers Amal Bowden Doherty

This is from the BSA RAF contract spares list which has illustrations but the part numbers are the same on mid to late war BSA M20s.

bsa01

bsa02

bsa03

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Re: Control Levers Amal Bowden Doherty

Doherty Levers, late war Norton but perhaps not the last contract?

Image1

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Re: Control Levers Amal Bowden Doherty

Amal, the long ignition lever is the cranked rather than flat type and goes with the early BSA combination sets, it shouldn't have the nipple hole right through someone has removed too much surface. I don't know if later WD machines should have the short or medium levers?

amal2

amal1

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Re: Control Levers Amal Bowden Doherty

Bowden. Early levers have the tapered centre hole later versions are flat copies of the Amal type but with the flat rather than ball end. There are two different scripts found on Bowden parts the large Capital letters and a small scripted logo.

bow01

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Re: Control Levers Amal Bowden Doherty

Doherty, a deep square section centre, one of mine came with the machined top shown but I don't know if its original, early ones have a large centre nut later ones small?

doh3

doh1

doh2

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Re: Control Levers Amal Bowden Doherty

Thank you Rob for this useful information

email (option): unpob@yahoo.com

Re: Control Levers Amal Bowden Doherty

Good information Rob. I can add that Ariel had their own strange handlebar set up. The bar was 1" in the middle tapering to 7/8 at the ends. The controls were Amal combination levers with the Ariel unique design of piggy backing the mag and valve lifter. They were also engraved with MAG--EXH--AIR, which I don't thing anyone else did? They also had the extra long grips.

The last one or two contracts reverted to standard (M20) 7/8 bars with packing shells and standard Amal controls. Ron
DSCF4674-2

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: Control Levers Amal Bowden Doherty

Thanks Ron, So on the Ariel the lower lever was longer and the upper lever shorter with more turn up, also the centres are secured with the round "screw driver" head bolts rather than the hex head?

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Re: Control Levers Amal Bowden Doherty

The last Norton contract, S5161 would appear from photos to have the ball-ended Amal type top controls..I believe they had 7/8" bars.

There are two types of Norton Doherty controls which have interchangeable internals, the pre-war squared-off style with a large hex screw and a later more rounded type with a small-hex. Both types are of all brass construction except for the top cover which was plated steel, they were originally dull chrome plated and later cadmium. They are quite a clever design as there is an internal tension nut and 'D' washer. Unlike with Amal and the crude Bowden set-up, the top cover is purely a dust cover and its loss does not result in a loss of tension on the lever..not that they come undone, as there is no rotating motion.

I have seen the later type cadmium-plated in 7/8" too, which suggests that some 7/8" bars WD16H may have had them (or were they simply supplied as a spare part ?)

In this photo, above are the early pattern and underneath the later-war type.

Doherty-Levers

This is the late Doherty with the cover off. Lock washer etc. are identical to Pre- / early-war.

Late-Doherty-open

Re: Control Levers Amal Bowden Doherty

Rob Miller
Thanks Ron, So on the Ariel the lower lever was longer and the upper lever shorter with more turn up, also the centres are secured with the round "screw driver" head bolts rather than the hex head?

Rob
Now that you mention that Rob, I've check the parts lists and a "bolt" is shown and listed instead of the screws I have. I'll have to change them now!!:blush: Ron

Scan-20221108

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: Control Levers Amal Bowden Doherty

After studying pictures and parts list for the early "SV" Triumph's, I've concluded that lots if not all had dull plated 1" bars with the pre/early war Amal levers but were always fitted with the standard Amal air and mag levers.

The 3HW's were ultimately fitted with the standardized Amal controls and even the M20 bar was fitted to late contracts. However the parts list for my contract lists the clamp and two screws instead of the usual pivot clamp for the air and mag levers. I've gone with that if only to have something different. Ron

DSCF3571-2

DSCF2143-2

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: Control Levers Amal Bowden Doherty

Not the clearest reproduction, but perhaps some useful detail here.

Controls

Re: Control Levers Amal Bowden Doherty

While looking for the lever article, I came across this pompous article written by (Temporary) Captain C.V. Jarratt (only noted as such in the London Gazette for November 1945).

Mostly G3L with an upside-down timing cover.

Period-16-H-Big-4-period-publications-593

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Period-16-H-Big-4-period-publications-595

Apart from the pomposity, I was struck by the reference to a "Tank-top tool box" on a G3L that I thought was a Tallflow filter...Did they use them to carry extra tools ?

Period-16-H-Big-4-period-publications-594-2

Re: Control Levers Amal Bowden Doherty

I corrected my mistake on the Ariel levers. I replaced the slot heads with hex bolts with AMAL embossed in them.

The twist grip and dummy grip on these are 7" long. Ron

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email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: Control Levers Amal Bowden Doherty

With Regard to the WD Velocette models MDD and MAF. They both appear to have been fitted with the pre/early war Amal levers and the usual Amal air lever with the pivot clamp. No mag lever on these as they have automatic advance.

The MDD (Officially it's a MAC WD) has an extra casting on the perch clamp for the horn button, and the twist grip is still the pre war type with the heavy push/pull cable that runs over the top of the brake lever.

The MAF was simplified with a standard Amal twistgrip and horn button. Ron
DSCF5165-2



inglis house

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Re: Control Levers Amal Bowden Doherty

I think I have seen the slot headed centre bolts fitted to the Mazak levers?, I have just noticed an illustration in O&M edition 3 page 31 which shows a late war Ariel set up with the slot headed bolts, its marked 11.44 which may be the date, does anyone have a better copy of this we could add to this thread.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Re: Control Levers Amal Bowden Doherty

Yes Rob. This is the standardized 7/8 (M20) handlebar and controls for the last W/NG contracts. Also note the two screw clamp fastening for the air and mag levers which I mentioned are also listed for my late 3HW. That illustration must be what sideswiped me into erroneously using the slot head screws. Ron

Scan-20221109-2

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: Control Levers Amal Bowden Doherty

BSA WM20s

looking through the wartime BSA spares lists there are 3 main periods of lever type, but spares lists can sometimes be wrong so period photos may yet move some of these changes, plus there is a gap in the frame numbers between period 1 & 2 which containd some odd contracts for the RAF ect which I don't have any spares lists to cover.

period 1. BSA combination Exhaust/Clutch & F Brake/Air, Amal long Ignition.

Up until the end of contract C7287 WM20 42000

lev1

Period 2. All seperate Amal levers, Clutch & F Brake we will come to later, Exhaust with twin screw rear clamp, Air & Ignition with "scissor" type rear clamp.

Contract C9310 WM20 44213 to the end of contract S2603 WM20 104817

lev2

Period 3. All seperate Amal levers all with the twin screw rear clamp, Air & Ignition bodies exist in two heights, we need to clarify which is correct and also the potential change from bronze to Mazak

I suspect the taller clamp may be Bowden?

Contract S5209 WM20 104818 on

lev3

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Re: Control Levers Amal Bowden Doherty

Great post Rob / Ron

It clarifies many previous questions & helped me identify some odd non bsa levers I have in my trays of levers & parts

Br
Job

email (option): jonnyob1@googlemail.com

Re: Control Levers Amal Bowden Doherty

Those tall pivots certainly appear on Matchlesses but every Bowden-marked lever that I've seen has used a conical leather washer as a friction device. I can't see from your photo, Ron but Amal seem to use a spring washer so should be identifiable.

Re: Control Levers Amal Bowden Doherty

That is correct Rik. Bowden had that conical leather washer, backed up with a smaller version of the spring washer. The screw thread is 1/4"
Amal had a more solid aproach with the larger spring friction washer. The screw thread is 5/16"

Bowden
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Amal
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The top levers here are the pre/early war Amal blades. The bottom ones are the smaller standardized Amal lever blades. Ron
DSCF5168-2

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: Control Levers Amal Bowden Doherty

As for Royal Enfield The WD/D and first contract WD/C had quite a unique set up with mounts welded to the bar and an internal pull twist grip.

After this all other models C-CO-G-L Etc had what I'd describe as the standard Amal controls and they all had the longer slender valve lift lever. There might have been some slight variations but nothing I can tell from pictures.

Royal Enfield were the only WD make (To my knowledge) to use a more sensible slack wire advance. Ron

WDD-036

DSCF1553

DSCF1554

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: Control Levers Amal Bowden Doherty

I assume these are plated steel?

a2

a3

a4

a1

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Re: Control Levers Amal Bowden Doherty

Yes Rob, apart from the Bowden parts which are mostly brass.

The WD levers were never handed as can clearly be seen in the pictures. The front brake lever is effectively an upside down clutch lever. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: Control Levers Amal Bowden Doherty

"Never" is long, long time ! :-)

Pre-war Nortons with the combination clamps had handed levers with the brake being more expensive than the clutch as it was 1/2" longer...a Norton tradition adopted from the race bikes.

The change to non-handed pivots and levers was made in September 1939, but when found my 16H definitely had a dull-chromed steel front brake lever still attached to the broken brass post. It may of course have been a replacement between January and May 1940.

Re: Control Levers Amal Bowden Doherty

Hmmm! Another oversight then. Both my Norton's have the long brake lever and one of them must be an early "non upside down" type. I think I still need a Doherty perch for the 16H brake lever? Ron
DSCF2763
16H-344

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: Control Levers Amal Bowden Doherty

Some contemporary information on twistgrips. I must admit that it surprised me as I thought that the type with 'ears' around the screw holes were Bowden as commonly found in 1" and fitted to Matchless.

Period-16-H-Big-4-period-publications-928



Period-16-H-Big-4-period-publications-929

Re: Control Levers Amal Bowden Doherty

Rik they've definitely got the captions arse about face there! The Bowden twistgrip has a sort of keyhole for the nipple, which you can just about make out on the right one.
twistgrips




Up to now I've fitted six of those bloody awkward internal pull twist grips. On the last one I did a 6 step picture tutorial if anyone wants to see them all.

God help anyone on a cold dark rainy night, trying to change one at the roadside. Ron
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email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: Control Levers Amal Bowden Doherty

Gents,

Norton contract S5161 machines were definitly delivered with the standardized 7/8th inch handlebars and the fittings as defined in the universal parts exploded view. Spareparts lists names the same part numbers and I have seen some fairly original/unmolested machines from this contract which confirmed the parts.

cheers

Rob

email (option): wd16h@telfort.nl

Re: Control Levers Amal Bowden Doherty

Ron, Apparently 'Fake News' isn't new then ? What a relief, as it turned my understanding on its head.

Cables puzzle me. WD Norton cables were supplied less one nipple. This is really not a problem for me in my heated workshop with electric soldering iron but what the hell did they do if one broke in use ? I carry spare cables on any bike, and I've had a few let-go over the years but I've never needed to shorten and fit alternative links to chains...and yet most WD bikes carried chain spare parts for both primary and final drives. I reckon that a spare tube would have been handy in action too. "Don't shoot, Fritz, the rubber adhesive isn't tacky yet !"

Rob, Do you know if any 7/8" contracts had Doherty controls ? I've definitely seen the levers.


Re: Control Levers Amal Bowden Doherty

Rik,

Handlebar controls for S5161 are designated with LV7/BC/xx-xxx numbers indicating BSA source.
They are Doherty but look like AMAL with the nobly end on the air and ignition levers.
Central domed round head screw with slot and Dohert marking.

cheers,

Rob

email (option): wd16h@telfort.nl

Re: Control Levers Amal Bowden Doherty

Rob, they continued to use the Doherty pressed steel pivots too, didn't they ? The odd thing is that I'm sure I've handled 7/8" top levers styled like second pattern Doherty.

C5485091-b


Re: Control Levers Amal Bowden Doherty

Rik,

The bike did indeed still have the folded lever to handlebar bracket as well as the folded handles.
I did however also have the "normal" shape Norton exhaust valve lifter handle and the standard Norton applied twist grip.
Spare parts are replacement parts so the machines may have left the factory slightly different but apparently Doherty was also making parts fitting as LV7 items??

email (option): wd16h@telfort.nl

Re: Control Levers Amal Bowden Doherty

Rob, that sounds logical. Did the Amal style Dohertys have Doherty friction internals ? I'm just sure that I've picked up 2nd patern Dohertys and done the test that Les at Russells taught me of sticking my thumb in and finding that they had 7/8" clamps.

Re: Control Levers Amal Bowden Doherty

This one on ebay if its all original seems to be Doherty, Mazak, 7/8", non hex slotted centre nut and Amal style ball ended, is it correct for the last 16H contract?

Rob

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/265965919357

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Re: Control Levers Amal Bowden Doherty

Good call, Rob. I wonder if the seller could be persuaded to remove the top cap and photograph the friction mechanism ? If not, should we have a whip round ?

Re: Control Levers Amal Bowden Doherty

Here is a chromed alloy/Mazak? top.

"AMAL" on top, under side the correct part number 12-031 and BS Kitemark, MC LD would be the foundry.

So is this late war or post war, how long did they carry on with this style of choke lever?

Rob

Image49

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

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