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Census number for my motorcycle

Hi, I wonder if anyone can be of help. I have a Matchless 1940 G3 WO frame number 7828, engine number 10341 it formed part of contract number C7183 and was part of a consignment that was delivered to Ashchurch and Feltham depots that were mark3d for delivery to the Middle East as confirmed by the club dating officer in 2010 from club records. I wonder if anyone can confirm the machine’s census number and which military unit it was issued to. Whilst the frame and engine formed part of the contract, it is unlikely that they form a matching pair as engines were routinely replaced by army repair shops. I would be grateful for any further information for my machine so that I can add it to the history that I already have.
Thanks in anticipation,

Neil Trinder

email (option): neil.trinder01@gmail.com

Re: Census number for my motorcycle

Hello Neil,

This is a difficult one... For reasons which are unclear to me, Matchless refused to use a numbering system which was using the same number on frame and engine. Most other manufacturers did, since the outbreak of the war. But Matchless didn't... Which makes it very difficult today to see if a Matchless still has matching numbers. Maybe that's why they called them "Matchless" (gottit, no matching numbers = match-less... :laughing: ) OK, so what do we know? Numerically your frame 7828 is the 828th frame from contract C7183 (frame numbers numbers 7000 - 12999 were used for this contract). And also numerically, your engine 10341 is the 115th engine from contract C7183 (engine numbers numbers 10226 - 16225 were used for this contract). The 828th frame is a far way from the 115th engine, but they may have belonged to the same bike. Don't forget that during those days they didn't have a first in - first out logistical system, so when they produce 150 bikes per week (according to O&M), this scenario would be possible if the engine stayed on the shelves for about a month. Doesn't sound impossible to me...

Next question: which census number would this bike (or would these bikes) have had... Well, contract C7183 was an RASC contract, and the census numbers of the early RASC contracts (prior to the amalgamation of the RASC and RAOC numbering systems) had no mathematical relation with either frame or engine number. With later RASC contracts, and with (most) RAOC contracts, it is easy to calculate the census number when you know the (normally matching) frame and engine number. The lack of a mathematical relation means that your engine would have had the 115-ish-th census number, and your frame would have had the 828-ish-th census number from this contract. If we assume that engine and frame "were made for each other", then we need to take the highest number (the 115th engine had to wait for the 828th frame). The 828th census number from this contract would have been 96975 (which is the 348th number from the second block of census numbers for this contract, while the first block only accounts for 480 bikes). So my best guess is that your bike would have had a census number somewhere in the region of C96975 (plus or minus 100 I would say...).

If we assume that frame and engine were not "made for each other", then they were put together during an Army Rebuild. And we know that these Army rebuilt bikes always got a new census number, from a block that was reserved for "rebuilt motorcycles": C1400000 - C1499999. So in that case, any number in this batch could have been the census number of your bike...

738-001

Now the easy part of your question: it is impossible to find out where your bike served during the war. O&M also say that these bikes were destined for the Mid-East. I have indeed found some pictures of contract C7183 bikes in the Mid-East, albeit with census numbers from the first block.

57-12
Matchles-004

Hope this helps... :wink:
Jan

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

Re: Census number for my motorcycle

Hi Jan,

Thank you for your very comprehensive answer. When I purchased the bike, it came with the census number C31048 which has remained on it ever since. Whether or not this was put on by one of the previous two owners or the military, I have no way of knowing; but it would seem that the number on the tank and the ones you kindly calculated for me are miles apart so the enigma remains. I will not change the census number on the tank even though it is more than likely incorrect. The photos you included with your answer were great as they tie in with the phot of my dad taken at the end of the war in Palestine. Thanks once again for your help,

Regards,
Neil

email (option): neil.trinder01@gmail.com

Re: Census number for my motorcycle

As Jan says. Very complicated contracts! I can't see where the number you have on your tanks fits in with any G3 census numbers. The three number blocks for your contract are 92889-93358, 95889-96828, and 934001-938590.

The book that Jan referred to "O&M" is "British Forces Motorcycles" by Orchard and Madden.

I purchased my earlier contract G3 from one of the authors. Mine has an even more complicated set of numbers, and he had calculated the number you see here. But like Jan, I think it was an educated guess. Ron

DSCF4948-2

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: Census number for my motorcycle

Hi Ron, thanks for your input. Having just seen your G3, I wondered how the hell mine won best Military Machine In Show at Stafford this this year as mine has one or two "in service" modifications and is no where near as 'factory fresh' as yours. If I had known about the numbering sequence when I was forced to do a total rebuild of the bike in 2016 after being 'T' boned by a lady in a car and the bike ending up on top of me on fire, I would have gone with the numbering sequence that you and Jan provided. However at the time, I only had photographs of the bike as it was when I bought it and prior to the off. Interestingly though, there is a coincidence coming out of my research as my late dad was in the RASC serving first in Egypt and later in Palestine and the phot I have of him would have been on one of the machines from contract. My reason for purchasing the G3 was finding that phot in his personal effects following his death in 2009.

Thanks once again for your kind help.

Neil

email (option): neil.trinder01@gmail.com

Re: Census number for my motorcycle

Well I've owned mine for probably around 20 years, so plenty of time for research and revisiting it with corrections and upgrades.

Be good if you posted a picture of your Dad and his bike. Or email it to me and I'll post it if you want.
Cheers Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: Census number for my motorcycle

Neil's bike just after the fire brigade put it out, and then after he restored it again. Ron
IMG-0690

IMG-1131'>

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: Census number for my motorcycle

Here's Neil's Dad in Palestine. In fact a Norton. One for Rik! Ron

Dad-on-Matchless-G3-L-Egypt-1945

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: Census number for my motorcycle

FIY, The family has a picture taken in the same location with dad on a G3 which was his favourite mount, but it is not in my possession.

email (option): neil.trinder01@gmail.com

Re: Census number for my motorcycle

The fire was the result of me being invisible (I was wearing a Hein Gericke hi vis textile riding jacket and trousers and the headlight was on) coming back from The Brighton Bash where I’d had my bike on the club stand, I was about a mile and a half from home and a woman who was waiting to cross the urban dual carriageway I was on pulled out on me when I was about 2 to 3 metres from her T boning me, breaking my wrist and the bike landing on top of me and catching fire. The fire I suspect being caused by the headlamp bezel flying off when the bike hit the ground and the wiring shorting out.

email (option): neil.trinder01@gmail.com

Re: Census number for my motorcycle

Well there's your problem. All that Hi Viz and million candle wat headlamp must have dazzled her!!!:scream: Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: Census number for my motorcycle

Three guesses what four words came out of the woman’s mouth …….. anybody?

email (option): neil.trinder01@gmail.com

Re: Census number for my motorcycle

The normal reply is I didn't see you. Uttered many times.

Re: Census number for my motorcycle

Jan, Am I right in thinking that the RASC stamped the C number on their crankcases. I have 2 examples of this practice. Cheers, JT

Re: Census number for my motorcycle

John, this was the case, roughly up until the invasion of the Low Countries in May 1940. These numbers were stamped by the RASC, as they all have the same "style" (the C being taller than the number itself).

Prior to late 1939 there was only one census numbers system, RASC and RAOC numbers were all mixed up. The only logic in the system being that the census number always started with the year (e.g. 3712345). The RASC bikes always (?) had their census number stamped on the crankcases:

C3917870

From late 1939 onwards, the RASC started using their own census numbers system, starting somewhere around 60000. And of course, these RASC census numbers were still stamped on the crankcases, same style:

C60862-1
C62652
C63120-1
C63410
C63511
C64570
C67767
C68081
C68118
C67614

As explained, this habit stopped around May 1940. The RASC still had its own numbering system, but the numbers were no longer stamped on the engine. Also when the RASC and RAOC numbers were amalgamated again in 1942, we have no more census numbers stamped on the engines.

Would be interested in the examples that you have!
Jan

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

Re: Census number for my motorcycle

I don't know why nobody asked me, as I have this bike on file, and the C number was 93125, the postwar ERM number was 46YA08, it was struck of the list on 08-10-1958 (Neil, what's the first registration date? should be after this date), at the location NID, which is an unknown for me, anyone?

The KeyCard number where it is on is 94a. I'll check it later today on the actual card, a high res scan is available from me for 20 euro's

Cheers,

Lex

email (option): welbike@welb***.net

Re: Census number for my motorcycle

Which proves my point... You can't calculate census numbers for the early RASC contracts.

The census number that was found in the Key Cards (C93125) seems like miles away from the number C96975 ("plus or minus 100") that I calculated. But it is actually quite close, if we consider that there are gaps in the census numbers blocks for this contract (C92889 - C93358, C95889 - C96828).

But still no logic:
- The Key Card census number C93125 is the 237th census number from contract C7183
- Frame number 7828 is the 829th frame from contract C7183
- Engine number 10341 is the 115th engine from contract C7183 (no "matching numbers" on a Matchless, so this could have been a replacement engine, although in my opinion this is doubtful)
- Census number C93125 is the 237th census number from contract C7183...

Jan

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

Re: Census number for my motorcycle

Yes, Jan, you told me first, that it was impossible, with my WD-C, so why did you try? I think, the bikes went from the factory, to an RASC depot, and parked in rows, and wherever they were parked they got a Census number, nobody looked at the framenumbers, too much work.

Haven't looked into the engine number yet, I will check in the afternoon. Would you say the C number on the engine was added as the C number was painted on the petrol tank? this must have been a lot of work, and as you said, soon discarded.

Cheers,

Lex

email (option): welbike@welb***.net

Re: Census number for my motorcycle

Hi Lex,
The first registration date was 28 January 1959, the engine number is stamped CW10341 indicating it was issued to the RASC which was my late fathers corps. Any further information would be gratefully received.

Please let me know what your banking details are so that I can send you the 20 Euros for the scan of the card. NID is Northern Ireland and correlates to its first registration. I have Northern Irish MOT discs for the bike and it’s English registration plate is age related..
Regards Neil

email (option): neil.trinder01@gmail.com

Re: Census number for my motorcycle

First off I’d like to thank you all for the information that you have given me, especially Lex for the copy of the Key Card. I’m going to remove the spurious census number from the tank and have a dummy military number plate that I can put over the civvie one at shows. However, I am not sure whether to put the correct census number on the tank or on the front number plate as I have seen on early photos of bikes of the same period opinions would be welcome.

Neil

email (option): neil.trinder01@gmail.com

Re: Census number for my motorcycle

The early RAOC bikes had their census number on the left hand side of the petrol tank, in white letters on a black rectangle. Not so with the early RASC bikes, here the census number was applied rather crudely on both sides of the (black) front numberplate. The RAOC clearly had a good signwriter to do the job, but the RASC numbers were definitely not done by a signwriter!

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

Re: Census number for my motorcycle

Neil's correct number. Ron

image0

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

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