Hi folks,
I've just bought a project G3L that's begun to be made into a trails bike. I'd like to start rebuilding it back into its former military form.
I'm hoping to learn anything about it's military history based on its frame number - Date of manufacture, contract number, tank serial number, where it was dispatched to, unit etc.
The frame number is 5915X (the X is to protect the last digit from potential thieves/scammers as I've been contacted by scammers through this site).

Its not matching numbers but I have two engines with the bike.
One engine has a plate on the crankcase stamped with serial no 8812X (again number protected with X) and part number 41-G3L-E701
I presume this plate makes it a Service Replacement engine?


The other engine has its number stamped on the crankcase - 41 G3L 4338X

Any information on the frame and engines would be greatly appreciated.
I'd love to find out where the bike may have served.


(ignore the AJS rocker cover - I'm looking for a WD replacement!)

Many thanks,
Nathan

email (option): nljb345@hotmail.com

Frame is from Contract S.2604 Contract date 03/03/1943 7000 units.

Engine....Frame.....C Number (tank)
74150.....59150.....5479450
74151.....59151.....5479451
74152.....59152.....5479452
74153.....59153.....5479453
74154.....59154.....5479454
74155.....59155.....5479455
74156.....59156.....5479456
74157.....59157.....5479457
74158.....59158.....5479458
74159.....59159.....5479459



Engine 41 G3L 4338X is from contract C11102 date 21/07/1941.

Hope this helps. I have no other information, sorry

Al

Hi Alun,
Many thanks.
I didn't end up buying this project as it turned out to be a postwar frame.

However I did buy a complete 1941 Matchless, would you be able to help with the frame and engine numbers on that one please?

It's frame 23284 and engine 27813.

Many thanks.
Regards Nathan

email (option): nljb345@hotmail.com

Nathan

The frame number 5919x you provided was from a 1941 WD G3L manufactured in 1943. Unless you had the wrong frame number it was a war frame.


Frame 23284 is contract C9841.
3608 bikes
15/02/1942

Engine number, I'll need to check a spreadsheet as the contract had another catalogue of 142 bikes.

Al

Engine.....Frame.....Tank
27684......23284.....4652059

Many thanks Alun,

As for the first frame that I think was postwar, if you look at the photo it appears to have a postwar style T Bar front tank mount without the sidecar lug, so can’t be a wartime G3 or G3L (?). Sidecar lug may have been cut off, as was the rear tank mounts as it was being made into a trials bike. The rear frame section was definitely postwar. I was advised by another member that the number was a 1951 number so turned it down based on that and the front tank mount.

The bike I ended up buying, with frame number 23284 has a C number painted on the tank which is C19864 which I believe is just the contract number? Which shouldn’t be painted on the tank? Based on your research I will look into putting the correct number on the tank. Thanks for that.
Is there any way I can find out where the bike may have spent its wartime life, or even find out what unit it may have served with? Would be great to know if it was in Africa or Europe or Asia etc so I can paint it either sand or green.

Thanks for the help.
Regards Nathan

email (option): nljb345@hotmail.com

Nathan

There may be others here than can advise on those records.

I simply quoted the data from the book "British Forces Motorcycles 1925-1945".

Cheers

Al

There were basically threee wartime colours applied to British-built motorcycles from 1939 to 1945 and they are quite period-specific. This was a standard service colour for the date in question and any which required local colour schemes or disruptive patterns ware painted on top of this, generally quite crudely.

Rob van den Brink's WD Norton site explains better than any other, regardless of vehicle type, just how it is impossible to trace an individual machine history. All you can really do is look at the date of dispatch and imagine where vehicles were needed at that time.

https://www.wdnorton.nl/Individual_motorcycle_history.htm

It will require a Matchless expert to help you sort out the complicated WD serial numbers applied to Contract C9481 which had two 'Catalogue references' (16 and 20) and was sent to both RAOC and RASC depots. Most had Lucas lighting and some had Miller...You've chosen probably the most difficult contract to be certain about.

Rik

I have quoted the correct C number for that frame taking onto account the variations in the production. But you are correct, finding which unit the bike went to during the war and after is not easy.

Al

Alun, I guess you are making a big assumption that the C numbers were painted on the tank in strict frame number order? I have not been able to find a photo of the bikes on the production line with their C numbers already painted on the tank although I have seen a photos of BSA’s like thus.

Nathan, you have been misinformed! Firstly, G3L's didn't have sidecar lugs (has your latest acquisition got sidecar lugs?) The number on the tank is not the contract number.

23284 is the 2635th bike from 3608 under contract C9481. As Rik said it would take a mathematician or someone with the original records to work out the tank census number from the long list of non consecutive numbers, and whether your bike should be Lucas or Miller equipped

Some good picture might help. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Hi,
Here’s the bike I ended up buying, frame 23284. No it hasn’t got sidecar lugs. What I was referring to was the frame I was going to buy, I think it was a post war frame which I think did originally have sidecar lugs which were cut off. It also had the straight T bar front tank mount, wartime G3L’s had splayed V shape front tank mounts. But I’m no expert.

Thanks for the replies.

email (option): nljb345@hotmail.com

I'll try to summarise, without speculating too much.

The RAOC Chilwell records show a total of 3750 machines for this contract. 1750 to RAOC and 2000 to RASC. At this stage of the war, Ordnance and Service Corps had their own WD Serial number sequences (often known as the 'Census Number').

The 1750 machines received by RAOC at Chilwell were allocated serials C4649425 to C4651174. Within this batch, 142 machines had Miller electrics and whilst the serial numbers are known, the frame numbers aren't...We simply don't know how the numbers were allocated to these bikes...did they go down the production line at random or was a block of frame numbers used by the factory ?

Where things become really obscured, is with the contract within a contract...the 2000 machines for Royal Army Service Corps for use by themselves and second-line (Corps and above) units...These serial numbers were C941912 to C943911.

The difficulty is that we don't know whether RAOC or RASC received all their bikes first, whether they were mixed up, or how they were split-up. It doesn't look as if RASC had any Miller-equipped bikes though...Without knowing which frame numbers were allocated to RAOC and which to RASC, we can't even begin to work out which WD serials may have been allocated.

4652059 actually had an M prefix...It relates to contract V4518 (M4651901 - M4653100 for 1200 Humber MkIII Reconnaissance Cars)

Nathan

Hi,
Here’s the bike I ended up buying, frame 23284. No it hasn’t got sidecar lugs. What I was referring to was the frame I was going to buy, I think it was a post war frame which I think did originally have sidecar lugs which were cut off. It also had the straight T bar front tank mount, wartime G3L’s had splayed V shape front tank mounts. But I’m no expert.

Thanks for the replies.

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Rik, there is a very well known photograph of Churchill on Gibraltar standing very close to a G3L. The C number appears to be C943315 and it has RASC painted on the tank and clearly has a Millar headlight fitted. Does that help or hinder your thoughts? JT

John, it seems that I didn't glance properly at the serial number lists in O&M...Small print and I failed to pick up the magnifying glass...There are certainly numbers from the RASC batch of C9***** serials under Cat. Ref 20 (the Miller batch) too.

This is exactly why I first said that it ought to be a Matchless expert who looked at the numbers. I haven't really studied these other than to say "No Way" :grimacing:

Rik, do you have any addition information on these contracts other than what appears in O&M? JT

Here a screenshot of the relevant part of Matchless Key Card database, the number is not in it (only means it was sold off before 1949) but you can see how mixed up it is!

So F is the column Frame numbers, and in the middle, the nearest frame number, then H are the C numbers (on the tank) all the ones starting with 14 are rebuilt bikes, then location and date of sale by the Army.

Then starting at the left are the Key card numbers, postwar Army reg. number, Contract number, and contract number as listed on the Key Card, not always correct.

Also a scan of a Matchless Key Card, own them all, and email me direct if you need information.

Hope this helps!

Cheers,

Lex

email (option): welbike@welb***.net

Thanks Lex, very interesting. JT

Thanks all for replies.

Can anyone help with another frame and engine please.
Frame 76281
Engine 93853

Contract 6150, early 1944.

Can anyone provide any more info on this bike or contract please.

Many thanks
Regards, Nathan

email (option): nljb345@hotmail.com