One of the downsides of the WWW is all the 1/2 witt idiots who were truant during basic physics seem to conflate things they have seen & just like a 4 year old trying to understand the world without the basic knowledge to do so, make things up based on what they have observed but do not understand.
Then after convincing their own feeble little minds they start to post garbage all over the place .
Now because of the way searches work, they end up in a self reinforcing group of 1/2 witts and their fiction becomes webb myth and eventually a fact .
Annealing is a STRESS RELIEVING process
It has nothing to do with phase transformation so there is no need to "trap" a high temperature phase in low temperatures by quenching .
And this applies to all Annealing regardless of the temperature that it is done at or the metal you are working with
Now copper has a FCC crystal structure, remember a GRAIN of a metal is actually a crystal ande each grain is a different crystal and all of them are orientated in different directions untill we start to fiddle with them
A magnet is magnetic because we force all of the grains to twist so they all have the same magnetic domain directions and just like a line of torch batteries all touching + to - the more that are the same directon the stronger the magnetism becomes or in the battery anology , the higher the voltage.
When you work a metal mechanically the grains willdeform by allowing rows of atoms to slide over each other .
Initally this is easy but because all of the grains are orientated in different directions, eventually a row of atoms from crystal A wil hit a row of atomes in crystal B
If the direction the row of atoms is sliding on in A does not line up with a slip plane in grain B when they touch each other then A can no longer slide so the metal becomes hard because the rows of atoma are interlocked with each other .
Now you apply energy in the form of heat and the heat allows the atoms to rearrange themselves so they are in a low energy state and the interlocking is removed so it becomes soft .
The big problem with copper is when it is hot & the atoms move apart as they get energy naughty things like oxygen & carbon can sneak into the lattice as it slowly cools .
The oxygen first forms an oxide layer on the surface ( which is harder than pure copper with a low temperature oxide on the surface
So in industry it is heated in a controlleda atmosphere furnace and usually water quenched purely to speed things up and prevent surface tarnishing.
As a side note, the brown black copper oxide formed at high temperatures is harder than the room temperature oxides for the same reasons as mill scale on hot rolled steel is harder than rust
So the take away, is slow cooling, ast cooling quenching makes 5/8 of SFA difference to the mechanical properties of the annealed surface but it might make a difference to the appearance of the surface which is usually not esireable .
metals that have a FCC (face centered cubic ) crystal structure slip easiest so work harden the easiest
And copper is FCC which has 12 slip planes as does aluminium which is why both of them can be used to seal surfaces by deforming to fill in voids
['One of the downsides of the WWW is all the 1/2 witt idiots who were truant during basic physics seem to conflate things they have seen & just like a 4 year old trying to understand the world without the basic knowledge to do so, make things up based on what they have observed but do not understand.
Then after convincing their own feeble little minds they start to post garbage all over the place .
Now because of the way searches work, they end up in a self reinforcing group of 1/2 witts and their fiction becomes webb myth and eventually a fact ...']
You'r right, the world isn't perfect..However, I'm not keen on the attitude that because someone doesn't have the knowledge you do they are a halfwit...There's a learning curve, different people are at different points along it and mistakes are made along the way...It's a good thing to pass on knowledge to those that don't have it but a bad thing to think of them as idiots...
I spent a fair amount of time training engineering apprentices and a guaranteed way to ensure they don't take in what you are saying is to start off by insulting them and making them feel they are stupid because they don't already know, or more importantly, because they don't grasp it immediately...Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
Thank you Ian.
That was a rather grumpy way to set of the new year by WM20.....
Let me seize this opportunity by wishing you all a very good 2022 with lots of knowledge gained and many, many miles rolling away under your wheels !
Vincent
I wasnt truant during basic physics but did spend a lot of my attention on Susie Derkins sat behind me. Thanks to WM20 i now know 45 years later why i dont know all there is to know about the fundamentals of metallurgy and why my headgasket blew
if only Susie knew lol
Happy New Year guys
I have the greatest respect for metallugists, mechanics, engineers and the like. I will never have all the knowledge and skills they have despite my best efforts at learning. But I'm not a half witt just because I don't know everything about their specialty. Everyone has their own skillset. I reserve my criticism for those who have closed their minds to learning and I suggest you ponder all the things you are totally ignorant about that others on this forum have spent their lives perfecting.
The things I'm learning about motorcycles now (thanks to people on this forum) are things you have known your entire life. The things I've known my entire life are things you know nothing about. Sounds like we're even Trevor.
email (option): cas.vanderwoude@gmail.com
The things I'm learning about motorcycles now (thanks to people on this forum) are things you have known your entire life. The things I've known my entire life are things you know nothing about. Sounds like we're even Trevor.
Neither does Ian or any other responsible person
I got taught that if you don't know you ask and by prefference you ask several different people.
However there is a weird sort of mentality that makes people post videos in particular that are totally wrong
And these are the dangerous 1/2 witts which is what was actually posted if you read the words and not look for insults that were neither there nor intended.
I do not call people names for not knowing nor have I ever slanged off any poster on this, or any other forum.
The take home is
1) never trust anything on the web without verifing it
2) annealing is a stress relieving process , not phase changing process
3) makes very little difference how the copper cools
Quuenching or air cooling or furnace cooling is a personel prefference and not a process requirement .
And a new year is just a different number on a piece of paper
Nothing is different today than it was the day before or will be the day after because people refuse to learn from the mistakes of history and when it is too late all they do is find some one else to balme .
Covid is making a mess of or lives, overloading the medical system and either killing people directly or indirectly because they are not getting the medical attention they need.
People are still buying the end of life on earth at an ever increasing rate so we are rapidly approaching our own engineered oblivion powered by ever increasing greed.
And those who pretend to lead are once again gearing us up for military conflicts which have rarely achieved much in the past 5000 years other than to make peoples lives a mysery , killing & maiming large sections of the population while destroying larger amounts of habitat for species who had nothing to do with human conflict .
We are trying to decarbonize ( which is not the root cause of the environmental problems ) yet we are happy to burn about 1.5 million tons of fireworks to celebrate a number which we invented and has zero significance turning over another digit .
Now what was that line from Monty Python ???
" Pray there is intelligent life somewhere out in space because there is bugger all here on earth "
And of course it is only a new year for about 1/3 of the population
The mushrooms must be good in NSW.
['The mushrooms must be good in NSW....'] :laughing: :mushroom:
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
I must be an odd one out. I like Trevor's posts. Some of it goes over my head, but if it bothers me I research it. I am of a similar opinion, in that it's the rubbish that if often remembered and the facts are lost. Yes he can waffle, but at least he takes the time to type.
If you don't agree with what he types ignore him, it will be your loss.
The new fashion is to post "I've done it once, now I'm an expert videos"
I was taught to be an engine remanufacturer in my teens, and was considered fully skilled before I left school. I was grinding crankshafts.
They told me i would probably be one of the last to know these skills and as engines were getting better, the trade was dying.
I moved on the be a cylinder head development engineer. Many of the so called engine repairs I've seen have been horrific.
A few years ago a young lad we were helping though his university degree in mechanical engineering manufacture, asked. "Why do I feel like the more I learn, the less I know?" I laughed, "Welcome to the club." I answered. It's an annoying thing that as you learn you realise how ignorant you were. You can never learn it all! There is no such thing as Perfection, we can only strive to get close to it.
Happy New Year to you all, even if it is just a date and the wrong one ;)
One final thought. I you find a fool in their paradise, leave them alone. I expect they are happier than you.
email (option): pes.sales@btconnect.com
Goimg omto mission creep mode here a little but one of the big problems the British had with the indiginous peoples was the oldest continious survivng cultures on the planet do not recognise the passagge of a year.
And funny eoough it seemed to work of them for what is considered now to be 80,000 of our years
Because of this no one actually knew how old any body actually was because it was not important to them.
And it is not important to me either.
Birthdays come & go but life goes on just the same.
I find it amazing that people call the weather weird because it is not doing what it is "supposed to do"
The idea that the weather is what is real & our description of it is what is wrong is totally foreign to them'
Once again the black fellas up the top end have a sort of lunar calendre which of course has 13 months in sync with the moon.
The black fellars around me have 16 seasons , according to what is in flower and right down south they have 5 seasons.
Yet white people alwys talk in terms of the 4 developed by a fat man drnking wine wearing a sheet with one toe in the Med.
Our understanding about our environment changes all the time as we gleen more information
So some ofthe stuff I was taught is wrong & I have to accept that fact and not run around posting trash everywhere claiming what i was taught has to be right because it is what I was taught.
Mast scientists understand that there is no single truth , all we have is a theory that holds & works till a better one comes along to replace it .
I find it difficult to understand that just about every text upon which a religion is based is full of predictions, none of which have come to pass but people still believe them to the point of killing other who don't
Scientists have been making pedictions and a vast number of them have come to pass yet we choose to ignore them in favour of the ones that have not.
Nothings real, everything we see is just reflected light, time exists only because we invented it...but to avoid confusion its probably best not to question everything from day to day...Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
I work on the fact that we are all in a one act play. No rehearsals and we don't know when the curtain comes down. So I try to learn all that is a help to me and try to enjoy my fleeting time here.
Where can I get those mushrooms?
"We are trying to decarbonize (which is not the root cause of the environmental problems) yet we are happy to burn about 1.5 million tons of fireworks to celebrate a number."
Is that something you read on the internet?
email (option): cas.vanderwoude@gmail.com
Statistics show that 75% of statistics are incorrect...Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
Is that something you read on the internet?
There is usually a very nice tone of voice in the conversations on this forum, and with a respect for the fact that people are on different steps of learning. I would be sad to se that nice tone go. Lets just hope the this is a one slip-up, if not I for one will be out for good.
(And perhaps learn how to spell "metal" before going on an endless tirade about people being stupid... just at thought.)
Is that something you read on the internet?
There is usually a very nice tone of voice in the conversations on this forum, and with a respect for the fact that people are on different steps of learning. I would be sad to se that nice tone go. Lets just hope the this is a one slip-up, if not I for one will be out for good.
(And perhaps learn how to spell "metal" before going on an endless tirade about people being stupid... just at thought.)
It was not fact checked which is why the line started with "apparently", the inference being it is from an unverified source.
And no I do not get what passes for news from the web unless I feel something needs deeper investigations than was presented on a government funded radio news report . In fact the ABC News Radio takes feed from dozens of other government and community based news stations & presents a lot of them in full.
It is skewed because they are all in English so the total dissaster that is continential Africa & South America do not get the air time that they should .
Appart from that I do subscribe to around 30 or so mostly trade journals , so the minning journals for instance highlight the massive shortfall in copper & cobalt should all IC engines get replaced with EV's as is the want of most EU governments
I also subsribe to a few scientific publications.
And there there aree forums like this where there is a broad spectrum idologies represented.
As for the "tone" the initial post started with a slightly different way of saying "don't believe what you see on the webb regardless of how many times you see it unless you can verify that it is correct.Perhaps a little strongly worded but still withing the bounds of civil conversations & refraining from profanities .
It would appear that some here decided they were being insulted and too offence , regardless of the fact they were not .
It is a free world if people choose to be offended rather than actually read what was posted then they have every right to do so .
If calling out useless clots who post misinformation on the WWW is degrading the quality of posting then I am at a loss to see how.
it is the duty of all who actually know something is totally wrong to point it out , particularly on the WWW because the stuff we post will potentially remain in cyber space till well after we pollute ourselves into oblivion
You are most likely well up in the knowledge stakes after all the publications you say you read and wish to impart your knowledge to others.This is good. Unfortunately you come over as a strict school master and this appears to get right up peoples noses.
Aloha,
"it is the duty of all who actually know something is totally wrong to point it out, particularly on the WWW because the stuff we post will potentially remain in cyber space till well after we pollute ourselves into oblivion"
Is it really though? Whenever something is wrong on the entire WWW? Like Ian Clare said this makes you come across as a strict school master, and in combination with your lack of finesse in your writing (I said that) perhaps as a somewhat unpleasant know it-all. And this is a type of character unfamiliar to this forum, you will probably be getting the same reaction to future posts if you keep this up.
As I final advice, and this is a friendly one a assure you, I would recommend you to get a different alias, many (most?) of us have WM20-bikes and it gets confusing. (As for my somewhat silly alias I started using it on US brit bike-forums many years ago, mainly because I kept getting advices along the lines of "you can get that at *insert name of chain of hard ware-stores* ", and I had to keep explaining that I live in metric-land. The stupid nick stuck and it is now me, but hey at least it is only me.)
Best regards,
Simon
I really had to laugh at that mushroom comment ! made my day.
And to add my penny; perhaps call this post mental ?? haha.
Sorry folks, trying to kick off from all those oliebollen...
for those who like Ishihara ! HAVE A GOOD 2022
please, let's call a halt to this thread now and get back to driveling on about bikes.
['for those who like Ishihara'].....
Very Good:laughing: ...and the same to you but in Cycle thread...Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
"it is the duty of all who actually know something is totally wrong to point it out, particularly on the WWW because the stuff we post will potentially remain in cyber space till well after we pollute ourselves into oblivion"
Is it really though? Whenever something is wrong on the entire WWW? Like Ian Clare said this makes you come across as a strict school master, and in combination with your lack of finesse in your writing (I said that) perhaps as a somewhat unpleasant know it-all. And this is a type of character unfamiliar to this forum, you will probably be getting the same reaction to future posts if you keep this up.
As I final advice, and this is a friendly one a assure you, I would recommend you to get a different alias, many (most?) of us have WM20-bikes and it gets confusing. (As for my somewhat silly alias I started using it on US brit bike-forums many years ago, mainly because I kept getting advices along the lines of "you can get that at *insert name of chain of hard ware-stores* ", and I had to keep explaining that I live in metric-land. The stupid nick stuck and it is now me, but hey at least it is only me.)
Best regards,
Simon
Firstly it was deliberately a new thread, not tacked onto another so as not to infer any critism of any poster here , not belittle or berate any one for not knowing .
Next
“For evil men to accomplish their purpose, it is only necessary that good men do nothing,”
A popular quote which is most likley not a quote at all but it is still very true, particularly when it comes to the WWW.
People and in particular children have died because confused parents believed false claims that infant vaccines make children autistic or other silly claims and that has been repeated so many times that they have mushroomed into a massive anti- vaccination organization. It should have been called out as being trash when it was first posted but those who knew betted ignored it because they thought no one would be stupid enough to believe such rubbish .
So it is the duty of those who know to call out whatever misinformation they see when they come across it .
We do it regularly right here on this forum when some one posts a reply that is wrong, some one else corrects it .
I have made just as many mistakes as any one else and when proven to be wrong acknowledge the mistake , thank whoever corrected me and if possible remove the wrong post ( which is not possible on this forum ).
If you check you will see this is SOP.