Neil Blount asked me to post this picture of his tool roll. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Many thanks Ron for posting the pic for me, having had no luck re. Repro tool roll I set to on the iPad and tracked down everything you see here ( bar the odd common bsa spanner) , including the tool roll , which when I bought it it was described as WW1, I’ve seen photos on the net of similar tool rolls being used, just wondered what members opinions were (I can take criticism 😊) if there’s anything amiss please let me know, I personally suspect the pliers and screwdriver could be wrong. I’m waiting on delivery of two renold spare link tins (with contents) that I found on eBay Thailand

email (option): neil.blount@hotmail.co.uk

This is my M20 tool kit so far. Still waiting to acquire a suitable tool roll. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

M 20 tool roll Love the bottle opener Ron , I have most of the tools wrapped as sent out it would be a shame to unwrap them will try a post a photo after the weekend

email (option): warbikes@gmail.com

Neil, the great thing about toolkits (and what makes them a good fun diversion) is that once you start, they can easily be improved, generally at moderate cost and any parts that turn out to be wrong can be moved on without great loss.

I'm not a BSA chap...but I am fascinated by wartime (and earlier) toolkits.

We don't really know if the WD replacement tool rolls were standardised..several designs seem to turn up but of course there were toolkits for almost everything mechanical or ordnance.

Is your sparking plug correct ? It looks like 18mm with the bigger tin ? The Romac tin is the post-war type...there have been several threads on here discussing those as I recall...and you need a cabinet pattern screwdriver rather than a 'Perfect' type.

The pliers look tiny...it's an odd thing but 6" pliers are usually closer to 7" and anything smaller was classed as a 5".

There are several designs of chain spares tins...the red and grey are OK for late war...Bright yellow and blue are 1960s.

Details of course, but the main point in recreating toolkits is in order to obsess over details...:smiley:

Thanks ric, very useful information! Yes it’s “work in progress “ and I’m already on the hunt for the replacements, I’ve bought a detachable hub spanner so things are coming together nicely, I’ll check spark plug tomorrow,my tool roll may not be correct being WW1 but it’s military, old and has that lovely oily musty smell 😊 many thanks

email (option): neil.blount@hotmail.co.uk

Eric brought loads of these tins in from N Africa or was it India some years ago.

Are these yellow and red tins early war or post war?

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Although I've had a number of the tins in the second picture I previously didn't particularly notice the reference to both the Renolds and the Coventry chain...As I only thought of Renolds chain as original fitment I looked it up...It turns out Renolds bought up the Coventry Chain Company well before the war...Ian

['The 1930 merger of Hans Renold Ltd with Coventry Chain Co created Renold and Coventry Chain Co. The new company had works in Manchester, Coventry and Birmingham, together with the former Brampton works at Calais. Chain production in the UK works was concentrated in Manchester and Coventry..']

Interestingly the Brampton Brothers works in Calais was set up during WW1 to manufacture ammunition initially...The same firm as Brampton Forks I wonder?...

['1915 The Calais works became the subsidiary Brampton Brothers (Calais) Ltd., which in turn developed into the Societe Anonyme des Etablissements Brampton in 1921.

The Calais works manufactured shell parts during the First World War and later produced light and heavy driving chains..']

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Hi Neil,

Nice collection of tools you have there!

I did also notice that particular tool roll on ebay some time ago. I decided not to make an offer as it's not an original tool roll as used on WM20's.

BSA did have a 'toolbag' in the 1930's and this toolbag remained in use till somewhere mid war. The toolbag is still pictured in the 1939 and 1940 parts list and in the WM20 partslist. I have found an original toolbag about 1 year ago, see this: http://pub37.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=3155626639&frmid=16&msgid=1435978&cmd=show

I have made a few repro's of this toolbag (all sold), this early toolbag fits perfect in the toolbox just as it's shown here:



At some point in the war the design of the toolbag changed and it became a 'toolroll'. The toolbag is not a very good design, all tools are loose in the bag, very easy to loose a tool. John found an original toolroll in the toolbox of an M20 he bought in Ireland. The strange thing is that till so far I have never seen a photo of a toolroll in use with a M20. I am therefore not 100% sure the toolroll was used on a M20. This is the one John found:




I have made a few repro's using the dimensions of the original 1 of John. The hardest part is finding the 1/2" webbing. I have found an original toolroll about 8 months ago, unfortunately I can not show any photo's as it's in a pile of parcels at Ron's place. This is 1 of my repro's:



Regards,
Bastiaan

email (option): wdmotorcycles@gmail.com

Would love one of these reports if anyone makes them again!

email (option): richiewhite765@gmail.com

'Repros'

email (option): richiewhite765@gmail.com

Me too please if ever they become available

email (option): neil.blount@hotmail.co.uk

I can make a few more repro's, the only thing I need is 1/2" webbing. 1/2" webbing is used on the water bottle carrier below, the upper part (see arrow) of these carriers is made of 1/2" webbing. Who can supply me with that kind of webbing?



Regards,
Bastiaan

email (option): wdmotorcycles@gmail.com

This rotten example has loops made from folded canvas.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

That is an interesting tool roll Rob!

I must say that the tool rolls made of green canvas with leather components are usually post war examples. Do you have perhaps some dimensions of this tool roll and the leather straps?

Below a few photos of a nos post war example.





gratis foto website maken

email (option): wdmotorcycles@gmail.com

Hi Bastiaan
The tool roll shown came with an irish army M20 which was one of 500 delivered post war but from contract S5209
In years past - I have these there before but they are uncommon now

I also bought a tool roll from the USA about 2 years back - complete with correct tools - it’s almost identical - tomorrow I can find it & send photos to you

The post war tool rolls with leather straps were quite common & were sold at a very good price at the time - this supply has now dried up regretfully- when they appear these times they make good money on auction sites
Jo’b

email (option): jonnyob1@googlemail.com

Interestingly Bastiaan I have a canvas example with the 1/2inch webbing strapping dated 1954, but its much bigger, in fact twice as long with two rows of loops so probably for a truck.

I will take some picture tomorrow.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

The anti-rattle tin seems to have been a Coventry invention and through the earlier 1930s, both Coventry and Renold had their own tins...I had an idea that the Coventry chains were higher quality with a more complicated bush construction and the introduction of tins for both makes suggests that the chain had become identical and the difference was purely marketing.

This advert is from 1935.



It's clear from the illustrations in the Norton M&I Manual and the RE WD/C toolkit photo that these Renold tins were not the wartime type and the Flea illustration provides the definitive confirmation that up until mid-war, the dual make tin was in use.



I can find little evidence of when the red / grey tins were introduced. They seem to be wartime but must be quite late...perhaps a response to the shortages which reduced the number of permitted colours on screened tin plate designs.

Rik

The anti-rattle tin seems to have been a Coventry invention and through the earlier 1930s, both Coventry and Renold had their own tins...I had an idea that the Coventry chains were higher quality with a more complicated bush construction and the introduction of tins for both makes suggests that the chain had become identical and the difference was purely marketing.

This advert is from 1935.



It's clear from the illustrations in the Norton M&I Manual and the RE WD/C toolkit photo that these Renold tins were not the wartime type and the Flea illustration provides the definitive confirmation that up until mid-war, the dual make tin was in use.



I can find little evidence of when the red / grey tins were introduced. They seem to be wartime but must be quite late...perhaps a response to the shortages which reduced the number of permitted colours on screened tin plate designs.

email (option): wdmotorcycles@gmail.com

Bastiaan, likewise the 1940 Norton early illustration. Clearly the combined tin.









The pre-war type mention Renolds on the end.



The Norton M&I Manual throws a spanner in the works as although the illustration clearly shows 'Chain Spare Parts' on the side and looks like the combined Renold / Coventry box, the top looks more like (but not 100%) the mid-thirties type...Norton's artists though were notoriously lazy when it came to updating drawings so I suspect that someone just did the minimum necessary.



The two sizes (primary and final) have the same length x breadth but height increases from .5" to .6" .

Here is the giant 1954 dated example which proves the webbing strapping was still in use post war.



The rotten example has a buckle on the end of the inner leather strap which seems odd, so perhaps this strap is a later replacement, also the outer leather strap is riveted on at the other end of the tool roll?





Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Hi Bastiaan,

Here are a couple of additional pictures of M20 tool rolls from Ireland which may be of interest. One of the pictures includes the details that is stamped internally on both rolls. I'm not sure if the 1944 refers to a year or a part number or indeed if the rolls are post war. The tools are obviously a mixture , incomplete and most likely incorrect.

https://ibb.co/cvzjJNL

https://ibb.co/rGqbhGv

https://ibb.co/6YrHpdh

https://ibb.co/n61KB3j

Regards,
Brendan.

That is the first 1 I see with a WW2 date! We now know for sure that these were used in 1944.

Brendan's photos:

email (option): wdmotorcycles@gmail.com

John did sent me some photos of the other tool roll he found. See photos below. I have seen this type of tool roll before and it is actually slightly larger compared to the khaki canvas one's. The tools fit properly in this tool roll, unlike the khaki one's.

Regards,
Bastiaan







photo sharing

email (option): wdmotorcycles@gmail.com

The tool roll Brendan kindly shared with us would have come from contract S5209 which was a 1944/45 contract

500 machines arrived after the war - bought directly from the war dept as they had quite a few laying about in depots after the war ended

It seems to be made from the same material as mine but hasn’t had the hard life like mine down in the country - it has very nice markings

Jo’b

email (option): jonnyob1@googlemail.com

Bastiaan: I bought my first M20 back in 1988 at "British Only", which was local to me. They had 6 M20s, all in postwar army green, just as they had been auctioned off, still with lot numbers on them. This group of bikes came with a large box of tools, most unissued in wrappings, with Chilwell tags on them. Even the grease guns were NOS, dated 1945, still full of grease.Even the tyre pumps were broad-arrow marked. Ken, the owner of "British Only", let me dig through the box, and select a complete toolkit for my bike, along with a set of canvas pannier bags, Y-straps, and a tool roll. The canvas tool rolls were all 1944 dated, and were the type that you reproduced. I soon bought another M20 from him, and again, he let me put together a complete tool kit for that one,too. I got another set of pannier bags and straps for that one, along with another '44-dated canvas tool roll. Most of the pannier bags were WW2, but they had postwar registration numbers stencilled on them (such as "06 YD 09") on the flaps. I managed to get two sets of bags that were unmarked. He also had TRW pannier bags, which were identical to the WW2 bags, but in a dark green canvas. The tyre repair kits were still sealed, but dated 1954.
Since 1988, I've probably seen at least 30 ther m20s in my general area of Michigan, and I've seen several of those same type of canvas tool rolls with them. Many years ago I posted pics of my tool kit and tool roll, but those photos aren't on this computer anymore.

Neil's newly acquired chain links. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

If you do get to make some could I ask to be Put down for one please. Regards neil

email (option): neilblount@hotmail.co.uk

Yes Rick your right spark plug is wrong, pliers I’ve replaced with correct pair with arrow stamping, screwdriver is on its way now too. Many thanks neil

email (option): neilblount@hotmail.co.uk

Ok Gary, I hope it's indeed the right type of webbing!

Regards,
Bastiaan

email (option): wdmotorcycles@gmail.com

No, I’ve no idea 😊, I can’t keep asking Ron , he’ll block me!😊, just like I was told at school…”must try harder”!

email (option): neil.blount@hotmail.co.uk

Oops! I’ll get back to you re. The plug details

email (option): neil.blount@hotmail.co.uk

Here you are Bastiaan, I have a few spare 🙂

Blimey what a hoard. No excuse now Bastiaan. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Are they Sten gun slings?

email (option): fuzzyempire@hotmail.com

A Sten gun sling is 3/4" webbing with different ends. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Wow I thought I was a hoarder, perfect over the weekend I’m away but I have a tool roll that came from a bike that was in storage on the Rhine so will photo that and send to Ron as I’m a dunce regarding posting here

email (option): warbikes@gmail.com

Hi Gary,

That is a nice pile! Exactly what I am looking for.

Could you send me an email to this Address, please?

Wdmotorcycles@gmail.com

Regards,
Bastiaan

email (option): wdmotorcycles@gmail.com

Ron Pier

A Sten gun sling is 3/4" webbing with different ends. Ron

email (option): wdmotorcycles@gmail.com

Anybody need a oil can? A bit pricey don't you think?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/203559952258?hash=item2f651e5f82:g:BR8AAOSw1f1hFpoZ

The price of three of them ! I suspect that somebody is trying to quickly recover the costs of his Beaulieu weekend....