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Mike. The old (departed) owner of Armours would not accept that the M20 front pipe that he was supplying wouldn't fit. But the new owner contacted me and ask for help. I provided them with a front pipe that I knew was a good fit. The tipped up silencer that they make was copied from an original that I also gave them.
Yes the pipe and silencer bracket are left long to allow your own fettling and the front bracket will often need tweaking. You must have the same system as me and quite a few other guys on the forum. I must admit that the silencer does slightly interfere with my toolbox lid, but not enough to worry me, and I use it frequently.
There is quite a bit of flex in the front pipe, which will allow you to drop the silencer down by probably an inch.....If you haven't already cut the rear bracket too short. Ron
email (option): ronpier@talk21.com
I've had a number of exhaust systems from Armours for M20/M21s and have yet to get one that fits...It seems to be an insurmountable technical challenge...:persevere: ...Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
Hi Ian,
Well I am no expert on anything but I would be fairly sure that this exhaust pipe is to put it bluntly a cock up and even after years of buying and fitting or trying to fit remade parts I fail to understand why these companies do seem to able to replicate a part properly.
I mean we live in a day and age where the technology and machinary is far superior to the days when an M20 was built yet they still can't make anything any good!
Cheers, Mike.
email (option): mdew01@hotmail.co.uk
Hi Ron,
I don't mind a bit of fettling I expect that but this tube that I have just bought is quite clearly not correct and looking at your first photo it is obvious to me that the exhaust pipe sits lower down and there is more clearance between it and the engine/ gearbox.For example I can only just about slip a finger between the top of the exhaust pipe and the bottom of the timing cover where as in the photo there is obviously more space. also i think they have angled the silencer up too much and even if I had not cut the bracket too short you would be hard pushed to bend the exhaust down enough to clear the underside of the toolbox let alone be able to open it. Had the exhaust sat a bit lower down ie if it was longer on the curved section then yes I think it could be fitted even with the silencers as they are.
The silencers look very nice by the way and I would be sure they were quiter than other types but not much use if the pipe is wrong.
Also I dont personally like to have to bend exhausts down in that way as I am not sure what force it might exert on the cylinder area around the exhaust port plus it should sit level and not really be sloping downwards at silencer end in my opinion.
I think the only thing I can do with this is to forget the tited up silencer and go for a standard one if indeed that will fit but the over all answer is to make the pipe correctly in the first place!
Cheers, Mike.
email (option): mdew01@hotmail.co.uk
Couldn't agree more..They've had plenty of opportunity to get it right, even to the extent of being supplied with originals as patterns....It's very annoying and you can only conclude they don't have the required skill set to achieve an accurate result.
I had a silencer from them earlier this year and it was louder, much louder, than the one it was replacing which had detached baffles....
No one should have to adapt anything to make it fit or be forced into modifying baffles to achieve a reasonable noise level...
The last Armours exhaust that I fitted for a customer about 10 years ago took me two days of work/modification to fit and the job didn't make me money, it cost me money...That was a WDM20...Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
It can not be that hard can it to copy and original part providing of course that part is actually original and correct! Starting with a NOS part it should be straight forward but if you do like the Indians ie make copies of copies of copies you only get something will never be right. I think it is a real shame as it is not easy to find exhaust systems for our old vintage machines and infact I think Armours is probably the only source for all our odd bod stuff. I have bought some silencers for my model 26 AJS so I will see what they like!
I was just thinking back to not that many years a go when you were looking in to getting M20 cylinder heads and you telling me how much work was actually involved in making a pattern before you even cast anything but look what can be done now just with computers and 3d machines but it seems it is not easy to get and exhaust spot on!
Cheers, Mike.
email (option): mdew01@hotmail.co.uk
I have one for my M20, in stainless.
It is very very loud...😒
The one I bought was a copy of the one that Ron supplied which looks to have quite a bit of baffling inside so I am presuming if I can get it fit it will be reasonably quiet not that I mind a bit of a bark to my exhausts!
Mike.
email (option): mdew01@hotmail.co.uk
Great , just got one of these last year not got round to fitting it as I was accumulating parts, suffice to say I am not looking forward to it now, everybody goes on about how rubbish Indian parts are , and then A reputable company like this can't even get it right.
email (option): chriscool@sky.com
I'm lucky enough to have found NOS for my 16H and it just fits straight on...Everything that Jan makes for a whole range of machines...just fits straight on....What sort of jig system is it that Armours use which makes them seemingly incapabable of achieving a decent fit ? The problem to my mind is simply one of a "That's good enough" mentality.
It will probably be worth checking yours first as you may have a good one!
I can not condem the company on the back of one exhaust but mine certainly is not as it should be.
Mike.
email (option): mdew01@hotmail.co.uk
FWIW .
I get my pipes made by Barry at overlander down here in OZ.
Never had a problem with a pipe that I have picked up in person.
I have had problems with pipes sent through the mail
Contry to popular belief they are quite fragile & easily bent slightly out of shape.
Would not be a problem if they were despatched in a heavy wooden frame but no BSA rider would be willing to stump up for the freight costs.
I don't know how Armours do their pipes bu Barry has his coded for his 3 axis bending machine so every pipe is exactly right when it comes off the bender.
If you think there are problems with M.20 exhaust pipes and silencers just try some of the replica offerings for WD 16Hs. I don't think I have ever seen 2 pipes the same and the problem is enhanced by it having to fit to two securing points as opposed to the one for an M.20 pipe. As for the WD 16H silencer I haven't seen a replica in the UK that was even close.
Of course I may not be looking in the right place so if you can please put me right - I would be most grateful.
email (option): keithchandler@clistandchandler.co.uk
My last and final dealing with Armours was years ago and I will never buy one again!
Two complete system were ordered, one for my 1961 Triumph Bonneville and one for a Norton Commando. Neither one could be made to fit. They were not even close. The front mounting brackets for the Triumph were off at least an inch and would have required removing the chrome to move the brackets to the correct place. One the silencer was fitted, its mounting brackets were in the wrong place too.
A friend of mine ordered a Velocette system and it was impossible to fit at all unless you left the foot rests off the bike.
I don't know how they remain in business when everything they make is crap!
This is a fairly old post but I just want to share some of the experiences I had last week with an exhaust from Armours. This particular exhaust was bought from Armours many years ago. I hope that since then some improvements are made in the shape of the pipe.
When I first fitted the exhaust it looked like this:
I had already shortened the end of the pipe by approx 3 cm to have it more alligned with the cylinder and to be able to fit it. But I needed to do a lot of additional work (grinding, bending, knocking with a hammer) to make it a perfect fit. I spend about 3 hours to have it like this:
In short: don't expect that the exhausts from Armours are a direct fit and only buy them if you have the tools or know someone who has the tools to adjust the exhaust to make it fit properly. A huge advantage imo: the stainless steel looks almost the same as cadmium (like the originals) after some time in my blasting cabinet and painting with heat resistant paint is not necessary. Besides that, Armours are the only 1 who are making the early tipped up M20 silencer.
Regards,
Bastiaan
email (option): wdmotorcycles@gmail.com
Hi, maybe we should ask the people in India for silencers and exhausts, because the English are not able tot make a good product 😭
John 👍
email (option): john.kater@chello.nl
Not that I have experienced their work, but how many of you are experienced in bending thin wall tube let alone making silencers?
There is always a certain amount of spring when bending a tube. Even when using CNC benders on some jobs every bend needs some tweaking. It's easier if they are slightly over bent as the bend pulls out better than it will pull tighter. If your making a lot of pipes the same you ideally should be working with a fitting jig. These can be expensive to make and even more to store. Also holding back your best pipe as a pattern helps too.
Buying a plated pipe is dangerous, as if it needs some adjustment the plating can be ruined. It's better to ask for it to be supplied unplated. Then an agreement to be made to plate it after making it fit.
Stainless is even more horrible to bend due to so much spring it the material, hence they are more prone to fracturing.
email (option): pes.sales@btconnect.com
['...but how many of you are experienced in bending thin wall tube let alone making silencers? '..']
Not many I shouldn't think...That's why we go to a pipe and silencer manufacturer who is supposed to know how to do it and give them our money....There really is no excuse for supplying silencers that make your ears bleed when compared to the originals and exhaust pipes that don't fit, in some cases not even being close to a fit...
It seems that 75 years ago it wasn't a problem but with modern machinery and production methods they can't do it...Don't even start me off on receiving pipes with tube that is severely 'necked' at the bends...That is just a tooling issue that can be avoided, I've been through that process myself with a manufacturer and they did get it right eventually...
It's really not the idea that the end user who may have no relevant skills or facilities should have to rectify anything before use...IT SHOULD FIT!!...It's like saying 'We've made your piston but you might have to remachine the ring grooves before you can use it'...This isn't rocket science, pipes are accurately bent every day for many applications and this is no different...Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
I've very recently fitted a silencer and downpipe from armours ( ron pier stainless M20 type) and encountered the same palava...I shortened the down pipe ( cant remember by how much but obviously it would depend on the particular "bend" on the individually manufactured pipe..!?)...I'm thinking it was 70mm or so,but dont quote me on that!!...it was a very very snug fit in the cylinder head and used a course sand paper to rub it down a tad...of course action was taken not to let any grit and filings get into the head itself!... the fixing bracket was over long too but I drilled out a hole to take the mounting bolt approx "55mm centre" up from where the weld meets the pipe and cut off the excess accordingly!,..its close to the stand spring and toolbox but had to be! It's under a bit of pressure to get it up into place but,fingers crossed,not excessively!!....the toolbox lid can be opened 75% of the way but access to tools etc is not a problem atall.....I've been using armours for many years and cant think of a time that I haven't had to twist or bend a bracket??..which isn't too bad if its stainless but a right pain in the arse if its chromed!!.. a real shame because the pipes etc themselves are great quality!!......last year I had to bend both downpipe brackets on my new A10 downpipes and one kicked out slightly further than the other 🤨...too much poncing about but got it sorted in the end!!..a couple of years before I sent a pair of dominator pipes back because they were atrocious!!!!.......anyway,I hope some of this makes sense chaps?..I was going to send a couple of pictures but haven't got a clue how to😂?..pip pip shaun
email (option): jacko1977pfc@gmail.com
Hi Shaun
I also have 2 stainless down pipes - reason - if you bead blast you can mimic the dull chrome effect with no paint required
However, Like Bastiaan’s pipe - it’s not possible to fit without significant rework- again as mentioned before - it cannot not be difficult to get this right in this day & age - especially if they have been given an original as a template to base their work on
I have to buy 2 pipes from them for a 51 Troumph 3T I have here - going home to Ireland soon - I truly hope they fit when time comes to fit them - I need to order them on Tuesday
Another forum member recently had an M20 pipe made & it fitted well by all accounts - the company who bent this was Raysons Exhausts - it’s run by the grandson of the former owner of Unity Equipe -
I have seen some of their examples on printed media & social media posts - they seem to excel in making specialist & one offs to a high degree of accuracy
Maybe an option for the future
Br
Jo’b
email (option): jonnyob1@googlemail.com
To OP: wait until you will start the motor with the Armours system.
You will definitely need an ok from the Ministry of Environmental Protection.
email (option): michasteinmann@gmail.com
Well fitted my exhaust last week and it fitted perfect just needed a little taking off the rear bracket. So they must of copyed Rons .
email (option): chriscool@sky.com
Armorers are normally pretty good , all normally need a little fettle , I hate messing around with chrome,Well I have a problem with a wng silencer the bracket is in the wrong place but as it’s stainless I can move it , however the little indentation at the exit pint should it be at the top or the bottom, I think it should be at the bottom as a drip point what do others think ?
the chrome ones on my 1940 twin port single AJS upswept pipes and silencers fitted perfectly ,
email (option): warbikes@gmail.com
The flute is definitely at the top Andrew. I guess more ornament that use! The last contracts had the "Bell End" removed....OUCH! Ron
upload pic
email (option): ronpier@talk21.com