Good evening all,
I am still searching for parts for my BSA WM20 which was despatched from the factory on the 2nd of October 1939 and I would like to confirm which electrical equipment should be fitted for a machine made at that time. Any help would be appreciated.
So which type of rear lamp,headlamp,ammeter and light switch/s would have been used and also which type of levers were used.
Best regards, Mike

email (option): mdew01@hotmail.co.uk

Rear lamp mt1130
Headlamp 8 inch du 142f
Lucas cz27 illuminated/domed glass ammeter
Switch lucas u39 off-t-l-h
Prewar combined levers

Your frame number would help to ID which contract it's from. (C5110?) In which case it should look like this. MT 1130 tail lamp, DU142 8" headlamp with screw fixing for the rim. Possibly with an illumination slot to illuminate the early ammeter with dome glass. Also possibly still with a NiFe battery and HF1140 horn. The levers were the BSA pre war version with a dip switch and horn push screwed to the lever backs, the light switch would be the pre WD civy 3 position type. Good luck with finding these parts:white_frowning_face: Ron
PS typing with Roy

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Hello Ron, thanks for your message and the information. Yes my bike is from the contract C/5110 but as it was an incomplete project when I bought it in north west Brittany I am not really sure what should be fitted and what shoulden't. There was a headlamp that came with it ( lucas DU142F) but the glass is wrong by the looks of it and the switch panel does not seem to fit well so I assume that part at least is not correct. Anyway it looks like I need to be hunting the elusive components again then!
Many thanks, Mike.

email (option): mdew01@hotmail.co.uk

Mike here are the Lucas MT1130 tail lamps. They were for one year only! The one on the left is an original NOS lamp, the one on the right is one I made, so that is possible. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

And these are DU142F headlamps with dome glass illuminated CZ27 ammeter. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

My December '39 Norton had the dip switch and also a lighting switch with 'T' position....it does seem to have been a policy that they were working on from the outbreak of war. I wouldn't rule out a standard WD type main lighting switch, if not as OE then certainly a likely fitment before the fall of France.

I agree with Ron about the MT1130 fitment on early C5110, but later machines from the contract changed to the less stylish but more functional MT110...plenty of those were in service with the BEF too, although a convincing MT1130 conversion is probably easier than making a pattern MT110 look any good.

What serial number have you worked out for yourself ?

Hi Rik, I don't really know anything about the precise details of what was used on the machines from this period hence I am asking and I also have no idea who long that contract ran for but I have been informed by someone who I am sure you know that the bike was dispatched on the 2nd October 1939. So does this make it early in the contract? A side from the headlight I have no ammeter,rear light,number plate or levers and switch's so not too many clues to be had! I don't suposse I will ever make a nut and bolt concourse restoration out of it as a lot needs to be found but I would like to get it as near to original spec as I can so all advice here is welcome.
I will post a photo of the bike as it is at the moment when I have worked out how to!
Mike.

email (option): mdew01@hotmail.co.uk

No worries, Mike but I catalogue my photos by serial number and just thought I'd have a stab at getting close to yours. Unfortunately, most of this contract was a mess in terms of matching serials to frame numbers. It was originally to have been 2777 machines (no idea why such an odd quantity) and then extended to 8000 bikes with odd batches of serial numbers.

This extract from a Ministry of Supply file gives an idea of how chaotic things were in October 1939...They were retrospectively trying to get approaval against previously issued demands for machines that had already been delivered but didn't match the contract specifications....main priority seems to have been keeping the factories in production....No wonder the numbers don't always match.

Mike when you decide how you want to depict your bike, we can advise on things like where to get the correct number plates and details on how to make an MT1130.(last real one I heard about was purchased for over £700:flushed: ) An MT110 is much easier and as Rik said, cheap repros are readily available but good quality repros are also being made.

Also as Rik has now pointed out, the switch could be the WD four position type which always looks better to my mind than the civy type.

My own M20 is from that same contract but despatched on 15/1/40 but I have left it and improved on it's much later war spec. Panniers/pillion etc.
Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

['although a convincing MT1130 conversion is probably easier than making a pattern MT110 look any good...]

The Czech MT110s are actually very good replicas...Glass lens, brass body pressings, Lucas markings and the single wiring gland on the back....I used one on my B30 as I thought it entirely 'up to snuff' and was a lot more cost effective than starting with a battered original and then trying to make it look serviceable....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

The trouble with the Czech MT110s as I understand it is that they have a plain steel back and lack the rubber diaphragm vibration isolating system which is really the lamp's greatest quality.

What serial number is it that you need Rik? I only have the frame number which is WM20 6227 ( engine number is later and from May 1940) and the contract number which was C/5110 and was kindly given to me by another member of the group. According to what I have seen it was despatched on the 2/10/39.
However i am sure it must be complicated to fully understand what was made when and exactly at which point parts changed.We are lucky there are some surviving records for these bikes!
Mike.

email (option): mdew01@hotmail.co.uk

Hi Ron, my bike really was a basket case with numerous parts missing and I have been lucky enough to find what I have so far.
The only electrical parts I have is the 8" headlamp shell and a reflector which I need to confirm if it is correct or not and a damaged switch which I believe may be of the type you oare talking about. Off T L H is this the one? Several years a go I bought a NOS switch of the same type still in its military packaging so I have a switch of this type but not the earlier one.
I don't have an ammeter of any type nor the rear light.
I do have several old regulator boxes of MCR1 and MCR2 type and I presume one or the other of these will be correct and I presume MCR1?
I also have a flat frosted type headlight glass but it does not have the black dot in the center of it.
I have no handlebar switches at all nor the lever assemblies.
Mike.

email (option): mdew01@hotmail.co.uk

Neither would be easy for me to make Ian as my metal work skills go no further than straightening bent parts and a bit of welding and anything more than that I am out of my depth. In the case that my bike would have been fitted with an MT110 type lamp I would have no issues at all in using the Czech made item and will be a lot better than no light at all or a bodged up original. Should the right one come along it could be swapped over easily enough.
However being from Cornwall what I will not be doing is paying £700 plus for a rear light or any other light or component for that matter. I would like to get the bike as near is it was when it landed in France but in a realistic way and i am not adverse to using pattern items if they are well made and fairly accurate copies and there is no other choice and so far there are no pattern parts on my project. i have a fe replica parts coming and will have to buy a few more but surely it is better to complete the bike and get it back in action again than leave it as an incomplete project in the attic!
Mike.

email (option): mdew01@hotmail.co.uk

Yes that switch of yours will be ideal. The black dot you refer to is the Lucas Defusa logo and are available for a few pence from "Classic Transfers". The MCR1 is correct and an electronic DVR2 solid state regulator will fit easily inside if it doesn't work. The BSA pre-war levers are sometimes available at a price, so best put up a shout if you want them. Ron

PS here is Jiri's site https://www.vintage-replica.cz/indexE.htm

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Hi Mike...Are you in France or Cornwall at the moment?....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Ian, I am trapped in France at the moment forced to live on wine and cheese and spend my time dragging M20's outof bomb craters!!!
Only joking of course but I am In France and unable to get back due to Covid and then probably will not be able to get back in to France again.
How is retirement treating you?
Cheers, Mike.

email (option): mdew01@hotmail.co.uk

I've seen quite a number of NOS 'Difusa' glasses in original packaging with no transfer....It's quite possible that they weren't too fussy for the military market.

Lokking at numbers, C5110 commenced at WM20 5001 and the first machines arrived at RAOC Chilwell on 22nd September 1939. It looks as if the first 2000 were in accordance with the contract and were numbered C3928419 - C3931195. This would make yours, probably C3929645...unless perhaps Rob Miller can extrapolate anything different from the 'Key cards'. Up until at least C3935651 seem to have had the MT1130 rear lamp (The 'Gucci' expensive one !)so it seems fair to say that the first 2000 all did.

This is the closest after yours that I have on file...C3930071 - It ought to be WM20 6653. The MT1130 is clearly visible.



Definitely still Ni-Fe batteries at this stage, as Ron has suggested.



If you want to enter the realms of rivet-counting (it is a dark place from where there is no return !:grinning: ) then perhaps you should know that the MCR1 regulator ought to be marked 'Ni-Fe' too...They had a different charging rate.

This base is dated '10 9' (October 1939 under the Lucas system)

Hi Rik, yet again many thanks for all the very interesting information and the great photos. I am starting to think that my bike has gone from being an illegitimate orphan to one that has just discovered who its parents are if you know what I mean! It is going from a pile of parts in to an almost complete machine that has some definate history which makes me very happy.
I don't really understand how the contract numbers work but anything else that can be found out about the bike would be very interesting.
I am not exactly a rivet counter but for the rest of the parts I need I will try and find the period correct parts if I can and if not use the nearest thing to it untill I can find the right part as I have done so far.
In any case it seems that you have narrowed the bike down to a definate group of machines which should confirm the specs of my particular bike and I have already started to raise funds for all the exotic things I need such as the rear light,levers and Ammeter but sadly standing on the street corner all morning has only raised 3 euros so there is some way to go!!
Once again many thanks for your assistance and the others who have contributed information.
Regards, Mike.

email (option): mdew01@hotmail.co.uk

The way I see it Mike, each batch of vehicles were ordered under a contract to which the War Office agreed to, or stipulated the specifications. The parts lists were printed for each contract and a plate was attached to each vehicle with it's contract number. That way the workshops knew which parts book to follow when ordering parts. Ron

The correct front and rear number plates are made by a forum member as a hobby. I'll ask him to email you off line. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Hi Ron, sadly I don't have one of those plates or any numbers on the tank as I assume they were removed by some French man many years a go so as the bike would no longer look like a military bike which he could not have registered for the road. I am no expert on military bikes but I have quite a few customers who quite obviously have got ex WD machines but few seem to be restored as such and it is more than usual for id numbers to have been removed and I am sure in most cases these bikes will be being used with a log book from another bike.
What I diden't understand about the numbering was the one that is usually found on the petrol tank and how it can be confirmed as being a specific number for a certain bike. Is there some records that show which bike had which number on the tanks?

email (option): mdew01@hotmail.co.uk

Each contract was a certain number of machines and the start and finish 'C' Numbers for each contract can be found from various sources...The first and last engine/frame numbers are also still in various records...So, using these numbers it's then a case of working out how far into the contract a bike is and from that the matching 'C' number (for the tank) can be calculated...That's probably how Rik will have arrived at the number he suggested for your bike...

I have one of the lights that can be converted to the correct rear light for your bike..I'll donate it 'free gratis' to the project if you want it...It's not too difficult to do and is the only way to go really unless you get lucky (very) or you're prepared to spend a lot of cash if/when an original turns up....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Yes the numbers are recorded but they're not always straight forward. If you look back at Rik's last post, he's already had a stab at calculating yours. Ron

PS this book is our bible, which is backed up by other members who have copy's of Key Cards and Ledgers.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/224455892171?epid=235165543&hash=item34429d1ccb:g:axwAAOSw~X1gfY6e

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

Thanks, Jan...I was deliberately a little cagey as I haven't done the detailed homework on M20s....


Here, by the way is C3929747, again confirming MT1130 and of course left hand speedo drive fitting as it's a WM.

That is a very close number Rik! And the picture was taken in France, definitely BEF!

Jan

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com