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It's the first time I've seen the MT1130 tail lamps mounted sideways on the mudguards like that. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

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Its come up before, didn't Rik tell us it was French Road traffic Law?

Do some of those BSAs have an amp meter in the headlamp and in the tank panel?

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

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Note no sign of the shooting stick side stands + the rear sidecar lug is integral with the frame. It looks as though all these vehicles have been set on fire - no sign of tyres, inner tubes, saddle covers, knee grips, footrest rubbers, applied painted markings on number plates and the like.

email (option): keithchandler@clistandchandler.co.uk

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Keith these panel tank bikes had a little side (jiffy) stand, you can see the pivot just below the rear brake pivot. Someone on this forum started to make a batch which several of us were looking forward to....But he never fulfilled the task. Ron:disappointed:

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

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I believe that M21s ordered for the Dutch army in early 1940 had a rear subframe with a sidecar lug. Not sure if these would have been on the left side, though? I'm rebuilding one of the C7370 contract M21s and this photo is a tad frustrating: I want that rear subframe!

email (option): cmmacd@hotmail.co.uk

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Rather than an ammeter, I think we're seeing the Lucas medallion on the D142 lamp....These bikes seem to have 'T' shaped batteries which means that they're civilian (presumably impressed) models rathere than WD M20s.

There were a number of attempts to conform with French lighting regs. My suspicion is that the cause of the lamp replacement was an over-zealous interpretation of the February 1940 BEF General Routine Orders which specifically excluded motorcycles from some of the requirements but seemed to fail in this case...I've never seen a Norton so-modified and they had the MT110 lamp on the right. The centrally-mounted MT1130 was actually ideal !

IMG-8501-Copy

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The reference to blue headlamps is a rather forgotten aspect of BEF lighting regs but ties in with the blue paint that was on my headlamp as found.

8inchschroefrand3

It's something that I'd been working on for the Dunkirk 80th but this wretched virus put paid to that.

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DSCF3450

Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

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That's the blighter, Ron. Top right has a headlamp panel ammeter but looks like a WD M20 with no tank panel...The bike in front is civvy again and has a chrome headlamp rim.

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I think you are right Rik, these are impressed civilian bikes. But do you have any idea of the contract number? This photo is a great source for inspiration. I have collected all the parts to build such a KM20. The only part missing is the T-battery itself. If anyone has a nice T-battery available, please let me know. I am planning to start the restoration as soon as my WM21 is ready.

Interesting details on these KM20's:
- civilian 'small' type of toolbox
- chromed headlight rim on some of the M20's
- Terry saddle frames
- civilian finish on the Lucas altette's (cadmium, silver disc)

@Craig: You are right, the rear frame on these KM20's is exactly the same as the rear frame which was fitted to the Dutch Army WM21's and the WM21's from your contract. It took me several years to find such a frame for my WM21 project but I finally managed to find 1. The sidecar lug should only be on the left side and there was indeed an attachment for the short jiffy stand on the left side.

email (option): wdmotorcycles@gmail.com

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The batteries don't seem to have been burned, does that mean they are a metal case NIFE "T" battery?

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

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Can anyone provide a suitable colour match recommendation for the mustard coloured gas paint?.....

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

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I believe that there was a ammeter in the tank panel right side also a light on the left side, which came on with the lights but could be pulled up and swivelled to see other gauges, interesting to see the carrier with one bar across similar to the ones I am selling, mounted on the mudguard. Ron the number plates, as I remember were always this way round, I believe it was the army that change them to an elongated version to accommodate the numbering system ie two letters two numbers and two letters, keeping the whole thing neater.

Regards TTJohn

email (option): Jomichael@aol.com

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Bastiaan, I think the whole point about these civilian machines is that they didn't have a contract number, or at least the edges were very blurred. In terms of the Nortons that I know better, it is clear that during September 1939, they fitted OHV Model 18 engines into some frames numbered as per the block reserved for WD16Hs....They then went on to build bikes listed as 'WD16H' but which have frame numbers that fall outside of the contract...There are photos of 16Hs with impressed numbers that have all the military differences....With BSA it's a little more vague as there was a far longer gap between finishing one contract and starting the next.

BSA seem to have finished delivering C3655 (Cat. Ref. 18) which officially ended at KM20 4601 on 28/7/1939...and the next 500cc contract was Cat. Ref. 20 - C5110 which was for WM20s and commenced delivery on 22/9/1939 - if the cards are to be believed at WM20 5001.

Orchard & Madden show some late KM20s and low number WM 20s which can be substantiated from the factory records and were delivered to the War Office but there is no trace of a 'Catalogue Referenced' contract number so by default, I think all of these fell under emergency purchase orders and the general heading 'Local Purchase / Impressed'.

It's clear from the confused Ministry of Supply Correspondence that there was a tender for a joint Norton / BSA contract - C4818 but it was cancelled, as in order to keep the factories producing, emergency orders had already been placed and delivered.

The WD serial numbers issued will have come from the 5-digit blocks at the back of O&M...I have WD16H images for C49079 - C49084 - C49333 - C50392 all looking to be in France.

The only BEF impressed BSA that I have seen a photo of is the OHV C61036

The 'missing' Civilian type WM20s will be those sent to the War Office between WM20 111 and WM20 4999..They are variously listed as 'De Luxe' and 'M20 SV Tourer' and even 'SV Tourer DL'...Maybe one of these descriptions relates to the civil spec panel tank.

I don't think the 'T' batteries are a Ni-Fe type...simply chance that the cases are more or less intact. The Ni-Fe had to be larger and didn't need the rubber 'T' mount as it was much more resistant to vibration."

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 <br />
The WD serial numbers issued will have come from the 5-digit blocks at the back of O&M...I have WD16H images for C49079 - C49084 - C49333 - C50392 all looking to be in France. <br />
 <br />
The only BEF impressed BSA that I have seen a photo of is the OHV C61036 <br />
 <br />
The 'missing' Civilian type WM20s will be those sent to the War Office between WM20 111 and WM20 4999..They are variously listed as 'De Luxe' and 'M20 SV Tourer' and even 'SV Tourer DL'...Maybe one of these dexcriptions relates to the civil spec panel tank. <br />
 <br />
I don't think the 'T' batteries are a Ni-Fe type...simply chance that the cases are more or less intact. The ni-Fe had to be larger and didn't need the rubber 'T' mount as it was much more resistant to vibration.

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Quote TTJohn "Ron the number plates, as I remember were always this way round, I believe it was the army that change them to an elongated version to accommodate the numbering system ie two letters two numbers and two letters, keeping the whole thing neater".

John, I have actually no idea what you are referring to here? Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

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I suspect, Ron that he's looking on a small screen and hasn't seen the modification to the 1940 model-year MT1130-compatible number plate with the top edge depression.

The plate has been cut away on the top left corner and the MT1130 bolted to the (Continental) 'offside' of the mudguard, completely in accordance with the instructions....but only this one unit seems to have done it.

1940-D-nkirchen-2


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Yep that's what my original post was about.

Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

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What a picture!!
Thanks

email (option): cbhaws@verizon.net

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Indeed a wonderfull picture - apain.
Although it is a shame these bikes, rare early models, were treated that way.

I guess some forum members would LOVE to take a look at that field, haha.
To think these bikes must have been almost new when the picture was taken, probably early in the war.

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Definitely 1940 Michel. Vehicles destroyed and abandoned by our retreating troops at Dunkirk. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

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Rick, thank you for the information! I have just looked in O&M and found the impressed c-numbers.

The frame and engine I have for this project are from October and November 1939, both WM20, 4 digit numbers and both part of a War Office contract. Not fully correct to use them for a impressed M20, but I have an original balloon paneltank which I really want to use on a M20 project. The balloon paneltank was on a KM20 I found in an old garage 30 minutes North of Calais. Unfortunately the frame and engine number from that KM20 were not original anymore.

email (option): wdmotorcycles@gmail.com

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So many things to see in this photo - I have downloaded it to study on my big screen
😬
Jo’b

email (option): jonnyob1@googlemail.com

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Bastiaan...Nothing at all recoverable in terms of original engine and frame numbers ? I have an ex-Police contact in the UK who may be able to 'bring back' the originals.

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Rick...no the frame number was really butchered. I kept the paneltank and carb from that KM20 and sold the rest to Michiel. He used most of the parts to complete another KM20 project.

Hereby a photo of the same pile of paneltank KM20's but from a slightly different angle and another photo of a few paneltank M20's with T-batteries.

Dunkirque-001

La-Panne



email (option): wdmotorcycles@gmail.com

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