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BSA M.21 / M.20 AA combinations.

The current forum photo of the BSA AA combinations offers some interesting snippets. The recent discussion regarding rear lifting stay handles appears to show the short version (i.e distance between rear mudguard and underside of the lifting handle.

Also visible on the third sidecar is the much sought after side light / tail light + the mounting position of the tax disc holder is off the sidecar body rather than on the motorcycle itself.

I assume FLT 159 is a de-luxe model as it has the valanced front mudguard.

So to a couple of questions that perhaps folks can help with.

1. Does anyone know who made the sidecar bodies? I assume they were not made by BSA.

2. Is it believed that these same sidecar bodies were those that were used on some SWD Big 4s albeit without the rack on top of the box or the Pyrene Fire Extinguisher.

Has anyone ever seen one of these sidecar bodies? The ones I saw in the late 1960s were a different design. I think they were fibreglass or at least part fibreglass as I seem to recall the sidecar mudguard was integral with the sidecar body. These pre-war bodies I assume were timber body with a sheet metal covering.

One of my SWD Big 4s was equipped with an AA type sidecar body and the long term project is to make a replica of that so any help would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Re: BSA M.21 / M.20 AA combinations.

Hi Keith

Possibly Swallow or SS Cars, there is a bit in "Jaguar the history of a great British car" by Andrew Whyte which gives the claimed company war time production figues which includes

335 Special RAF camera carrying sidecars
3,751 WD Sidecars
1,295 Box Sidecars
3,927 Passenger Sidecars

With the passenger sidecars BSA M20s appeared to have the Swallow model 8 fitted on a Swallow chassis, Norton 16Hs had a Norton chassis but did they use the Norton passenger body or the Swallow? 3,927 seems to be too many just for the BSAs?

And I have always been intrigued by an RAF camera carrying sidecar?

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Re: BSA M.21 / M.20 AA combinations.

Netley Marsh last year. Not exactly the same body...Could this be a replica...?
IMG-1425
IMG-1426
forum

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

Re: BSA M.21 / M.20 AA combinations.

Rob Miller
Hi Keith

Possibly Swallow or SS Cars, there is a bit in "Jaguar the history of a great British car" by Andrew Whyte which gives the claimed company war time production figues which includes

335 Special RAF camera carrying sidecars
3,751 WD Sidecars
1,295 Box Sidecars
3,927 Passenger Sidecars

With the passenger sidecars BSA M20s appeared to have the Swallow model 8 fitted on a Swallow chassis, Norton 16Hs had a Norton chassis but did they use the Norton passenger body or the Swallow? 3,927 seems to be too many just for the BSAs?

And I have always been intrigued by an RAF camera carrying sidecar?

Rob
Thanks Rob for that information greatly appreciated including the e.mail.

I do believe that Norton used both box body sidecars and passenger body sidecars on some of the 16Hs all of which used the Norton Model 8 sidecar chassis and by a stroke of good fortune I actually have a Norton Model 8 sidecar chassis, with sidecar / bike fittings, front and rear springs and tie bars with wheel and original mudguard and sidecar light.

As for camera carrying sidecars I can only assume these machines delivered and collected the cameras from photo reconnaissance aircraft as they were I believe quite bulky pieces of equipment and I think some recon aircraft may have been fitted with more than one camera.

Re: BSA M.21 / M.20 AA combinations.

Jan
Netley Marsh last year. Not exactly the same body...Could this be a replica...?


Thanks Jan - that's interesting.

As you say and quite clearly not exactly the same body so possibly a replica although the AA crest looks remarkably professional so on the balance of probability a better than even chance of it being an original.

However, the wartime photo I have of a 16H with box sidecar is NOT as the one you photographed at Netley Marsh as the top of the opening lid lines with the top of the front of the sidecar + whilst it does not have the rack on top of the lid - the lid is secured by two clips and what appears to be a boot type handle with locking device. (Imperial War Museum photos KID 5882 and KID 5881). The 16H is perhaps mid war period at it has rubber riders footrests but with the rear carrier and side pannier frames and carries a civilian registration number JXX 775.

So on that basis assuming the Netley Marsh sidecar body is original we have three variants already.

Re: BSA M.21 / M.20 AA combinations.

I took some pictures of an AA sidecar in Moretonhamptead motor Museum a few years ago, the bike I seem to remember was ex WD but the sidecar looked original and I think was steel over a wood frame.

And I'm sure Rik turned up a document that mentioned the WD version being 9 inchs longer than the standard AA box?

Rob

DSCN1442

DSCN1456

DSCN1459

DSCN1462

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Re: BSA M.21 / M.20 AA combinations.

Keith you mentioned the sidelight on the 3rd bike. That one is a normal white/clear lens Lucas 1130 which you can probably buy every day on ebay. The rare one is the rear lamp "MT"1130 with red lens and number plate illumination.

I've often wondered why they were prefixed MT? Which to my mind indicates military. But they were used more on civilian BSA and Ariel and never on military Ariel's??

Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: BSA M.21 / M.20 AA combinations.

Is it possible to accurately date the two in the wartime picture from the registration numbers, it would be nice to know if these are JM20s or KM20s?

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Re: BSA M.21 / M.20 AA combinations.

Rob Miller
I took some pictures of an AA sidecar in Moretonhamptead motor Museum a few years ago, the bike I seem to remember was ex WD but the sidecar looked original and I think was steel over a wood frame.

And I'm sure Rik turned up a document that mentioned the WD version being 9 inchs longer than the standard AA box?

Rob







Brilliant Rob thanks for posting the photographs and for identifying the location of what seems without doubt an original AA sidecar body and upon which the WD version was based. I have also been told the WD version was 9" longer but on the basis that everything else was the same making a replica WD version should not pose too many problems I would hope.

Thanks once again - greatly appreciated.

Re: BSA M.21 / M.20 AA combinations.

Ron Pier
Keith you mentioned the sidelight on the 3rd bike. That one is a normal white/clear lens Lucas 1130 which you can probably buy every day on ebay. The rare one is the rear lamp "MT"1130 with red lens and number plate illumination.

I've often wondered why they were prefixed MT? Which to my mind indicates military. But they were used more on civilian BSA and Ariel and never on military Ariel's??

Ron
Ron - Is it not relatively easy to convert a Lucas 1130 to a MT1130? Maybe I am missing something here - in which case that sadly would not be for the first time!!

Re: BSA M.21 / M.20 AA combinations.

Good morning everyone,
I have a completely original and unrestored 56’ M21 AA Outfit the sidecar box is the same as Jan photographed at Netley Marsh, As far as I know there were 3 body types early ones with fully opening lid, Late 40s early 50s which is my type and later fibreglass ones used on the plunger framed bikes, I’m sure but not 100% certain the boxes were coach built by BSA with a ash frame and welded up galvanised body the fibreglass ones were made by Michenhalls (Don’t know if i’ve spelt that right ?) Measurements are Length tip to tail 52” 1/4, Width 18” 1/4 Depth 15” The lid is missing from mine
but I do know they were 2” deep, Haven’t a clue how to post pictures but I can mail some to anyone who may want some’
Regards Tom,

email (option): rustytomm20@hotmail.com

Re: BSA M.21 / M.20 AA combinations.

Rob Miller
Is it possible to accurately date the two in the wartime picture from the registration numbers, it would be nice to know if these are JM20s or KM20s?

Rob
Both registration numbers were issued in London. The FLT series of numbers were issued in January 1939, the FXM series are from June 1939.

Re: BSA M.21 / M.20 AA combinations.

Tom Green
Good morning everyone,
I have a completely original and unrestored 56’ M21 AA Outfit the sidecar box is the same as Jan photographed at Netley Marsh, As far as I know there were 3 body types early ones with fully opening lid, Late 40s early 50s which is my type and later fibreglass ones used on the plunger framed bikes, I’m sure but not 100% certain the boxes were coach built by BSA with a ash frame and welded up galvanised body the fibreglass ones were made by Michenhalls (Don’t know if i’ve spelt that right ?) Measurements are Length tip to tail 52” 1/4, Width 18” 1/4 Depth 15” The lid is missing from mine
but I do know they were 2” deep, Haven’t a clue how to post pictures but I can mail some to anyone who may want some’
Regards Tom,
Thanks Tom that is absolutely splendid - I will e.mail you if I may and take up your offer of the photographs.

I am told that no-one has yet restored a SWD Big 4 with box sidecar body and as one of my SWD Big 4s was originally built with one it seemed reasonable to re-create it rather than go for the usual passenger body which seems to be the favoured choice on most restored SWD Big 4s.

Re: BSA M.21 / M.20 AA combinations.

Hi Keith,
Yes no problem, mail me and i’ll send some pictures,
Regards Tom.

email (option): rustytomm20@hotmail.com

Re: BSA M.21 / M.20 AA combinations.

It seems that initially, Norton supplied some standard Tradesman's box sidecars on 16Hs...For the Admiralty at least. 'SHX' was issued from mid-1939, but the outfit with steel pannier toolboxes must date from mid to late 1940.

A-1940-WRNS-Box-sidecar

They also appear to have supplied the RN with 'AA' type box bodies, although it's not possible to see if this one is extended.

B-WRNS-AA-Box-Sidecar

There is also an odd box featured amongst the Kidbrook Collection but quite what it's doing there is a puzzle. Maybe it was their post-war runabout. It's a late-war 16H with 18" wheels and 'JXX' is a 1949 registration series. I think it's a red herring.

B-JXX-775-Box-sidecar

B-JXX-775-Box-sidecar-18

The contract details for the 1940 SWD Big 4 contract C6831 indicate that the bodies were 9" longer than a standard AA Box. I believe that this was the first box body contract although there is a reference in one BEF CMP war diary dated 21st April 1940 to the effect that the War Establishment of a Provost Company had been amended to include 13 box sidecar outfits to carry signage and lamps for traffic control. I suspect that these didn't reach France and were introduced later in 1940.

C6831-2

A-1940-C4156093-C4385128-C4385130-MP-1941-IWM-H12814

A-1940-C4385130-C-7576

Re: BSA M.21 / M.20 AA combinations.

keith chandler
Ron Pier
Keith you mentioned the sidelight on the 3rd bike. That one is a normal white/clear lens Lucas 1130 which you can probably buy every day on ebay. The rare one is the rear lamp \"MT\"1130 with red lens and number plate illumination.

I\'ve often wondered why they were prefixed MT? Which to my mind indicates military. But they were used more on civilian BSA and Ariel and never on military Ariel\'s??

Ron
Ron - Is it not relatively easy to convert a Lucas 1130 to a MT1130? Maybe I am missing something here - in which case that sadly would not be for the first time!!
Keith it's exactly what I have done for my second C10. My first one has an original MT 1130. It's not as simple as you might think and a correct red glass lens crimped into its bezel is almost impossible to find. Ron

C10-206

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: BSA M.21 / M.20 AA combinations.

Any chance that someone with greater computer skills than myself ( that is everyone by the way)could append the forum photograph to this thread. Many thanks.

Re: BSA M.21 / M.20 AA combinations.

Ron Pier
keith chandler
Ron Pier
Keith you mentioned the sidelight on the 3rd bike. That one is a normal white/clear lens Lucas 1130 which you can probably buy every day on ebay. The rare one is the rear lamp \\\"MT\\\"1130 with red lens and number plate illumination.

I\\\'ve often wondered why they were prefixed MT? Which to my mind indicates military. But they were used more on civilian BSA and Ariel and never on military Ariel\\\'s??

Ron
Ron - Is it not relatively easy to convert a Lucas 1130 to a MT1130? Maybe I am missing something here - in which case that sadly would not be for the first time!!
Keith it's exactly what I have done for my second C10. My first one has an original MT 1130. It's not as simple as you might think and a correct red glass lens crimped into its bezel is almost impossible to find. Ron

Maybe not as simple as I think but I know a man with the talent to resolve that - well done Ron!!

Re: BSA M.21 / M.20 AA combinations.

Keith, Jan already posted that picture in about the third post. I'll email it to you anyway.

Here's my original MT1130. Ron

All-C10-023

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: BSA M.21 / M.20 AA combinations.

Ron, just a thought, but the 110 was an 'MT' before the 1130 came along. Is 'Motorcycle Tail' too obvious an answer ?

Re: BSA M.21 / M.20 AA combinations.

Bloody Hell, of course Rik. MT210-MT211-MT110 All "Motorcycle Tail lamps" :flushed: Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: BSA M.21 / M.20 AA combinations.

My wallet was 'M T' after purchasing one of those lamps.😂

email (option): Fuzzyempire@hotmail.com

Re: BSA M.21 / M.20 AA combinations.

Hamish:smiley: What bike have you fitted it to? Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: BSA M.21 / M.20 AA combinations.

Hi Ron. I have a fairly rough early post war Ariel Red Hunter. Its work in progress but I was lucky enough to find the correct number plate bracket with most of a MT1130a lamp still in place.

email (option): Fuzzyempire@hotmail.com

Re: BSA M.21 / M.20 AA combinations.

Post war Red Hunter? I always thought they were only used on BSA and Ariel for the 39-40 period. I'll have to look into it.

Cheers Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: BSA M.21 / M.20 AA combinations.

As far as I've found out, They were only fitted to Ariel's in 1939......You might as well give it to me Hamish. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: BSA M.21 / M.20 AA combinations.

You're right, Ron. It would devalue a post-war bike, being incorrect and all that, just by being there ! :slightly_smiling_face:

Re: BSA M.21 / M.20 AA combinations.

All yours Ron. Come and pick it up. I live in New Zealand.🙂 I'm basing my use of MT1130a on two pictures in Roy Bacons "Ariel,The postwar models" book.

email (option): Fuzzyempire@hotmail.com

Re: BSA M.21 / M.20 AA combinations.

I know a bloke in NZ......I'll send him round:upside_down_face: :upside_down_face:

God know's about those lamps? An awful lot of effort to make a strange lamp and its special number plate for one year only, for just two makes.
A friend of mine (Dino) has collected all original motorcycle related Lucas catalogues tells me that the MT1130 doesn't exist, because they're not listed in any catalogue. I had trouble getting him to accept it! I guess they must have been a special order by BSA and Ariel? Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: BSA M.21 / M.20 AA combinations.

I used one on my T120R 'TT' Special...I just like the shape of them....I often use parts I like, as opposed to what should be there, if I think it suits the style of the bike better...

Interesting thread about the AA outfits (as well as rear lights)..A friend of mine had an 1939 AA Triumph Speed Twin ..Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: BSA M.21 / M.20 AA combinations.

I've see a pre-war Triumph 6S engine stamped AA (600cc SV sidecar tug) which would have been fitted in the same frame as the Speedtwin and Tiger 100. It was sold to John A (W&P) by mistake for his 5SW frame.....Of course it was too big. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: BSA M.21 / M.20 AA combinations.

The Big4s with box bodies were issued to the Airborne Divisional Provost Company which landed at Arnhem, I don't know if they went, its possible that they had already been replaced with Jeeps by September 1944 or perhaps they just weren't a priority in glider allocation?

Thanks to Rob van Meel for this info.

Rob

abpro

abpro1

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Re: BSA M.21 / M.20 AA combinations.

Maybe they were 16H Rob? Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: BSA M.21 / M.20 AA combinations.

All the evidence suggests that the early to mid war establishment for a provost company included SWD Big 4s for carrying signage and lamps.

I've seen no evidence that the War Office (army) took any 16H sidecars at all, whether passenger or box bodied. It is clear that the Admiralty had some box bodies and I daresay the Air Force got hold of some too.

Re: BSA M.21 / M.20 AA combinations.

I think I saw a photograph on here sometime ago of a SWD Big 4 combination inside a glider (a Horsa I presume).

Re: BSA M.21 / M.20 AA combinations.

Indeed Keith. Ron

1-Motorcycle-Combo-on-Horsa
Big-4-in-training-with-Airbornes-04-a

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: BSA M.21 / M.20 AA combinations.

This is one of the Box-bodied Big 4s that arrived in Australia :-

NORTON-COMB-C

...and an AWM image showing what looks to be a Big 4 with RAAF...It certainly has the passenger grab handle but front mudguard is 16H.

AWM-Box-sidecar

Re: BSA M.21 / M.20 AA combinations.

Sorry, what means AA ?? Thanks in advance! Regards

email (option): m606paz@yahoo.com.ar

Re: BSA M.21 / M.20 AA combinations.

Automobile Association....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: BSA M.21 / M.20 AA combinations.

Rik
This is one of the Box-bodied Big 4s that arrived in Australia :-



...and an AWM image showing what looks to be a Big 4 with RAAF...It certainly has the passenger grab handle but front mudguard is 16H.

I was in correspondence with an Australian SWD Big 4 owner from the state of Victoria in the mid 1970s who besides the bike and sidecar had a trailer for the machine believed to have been used with the RAAF. I have photographic slides of it somewhere.

Re: BSA M.21 / M.20 AA combinations.

Ian Wright
Automobile Association....Ian
Thank you Ian!

email (option): m606paz@yahoo.com.ar

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