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1944 Norton 16H Wet sumping

I bet this question has been asked many times before ? Is there any way to stop my 1944 16H wet sumping ? takes a while but its very annoying, is it leaking past a worn pump ?

Re: 1944 Norton 16H Wet sumping

Its a design feature. You can slow it down using Straight 50 [Works on mine but doesn't for everyone].
Or you can fit a tap, but I wouldn't. Embrace it

email (option): jeremy@clogmaker.co.uk

Re: 1944 Norton 16H Wet sumping

I gather it's something that Norton didn't improve on well into the 60's. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: 1944 Norton 16H Wet sumping

What happens and why?...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: 1944 Norton 16H Wet sumping

The Norton oil pump is notorious for letting oil by. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: 1944 Norton 16H Wet sumping

So no cure then ? Thats annoying.

Re: 1944 Norton 16H Wet sumping

Ian there is such a thing as an "in line" none return valve. I think it was invented by Velocette and fitted as standard from somewhere around the 40's. as Velo's also suffer badly with this problem. They do worry me a bit but lots of people have fitted them and there are mixed opinions.. Horror has them on both his Norton's I think.
https://www.nortonownersclub.org/support/technical-support-common/wet-sumping-anti-drain-valves

The real answer however is to start the bike more often or take out the drain plug after a long stand, which is easier on a Norton than other makes as it's on the side.

Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: 1944 Norton 16H Wet sumping

Hi Ian,
i know some of the guys don`t like the idea, but i use a tap on my oil line.
I place a boot lace on the kick starter to remind me to turn the tap on !!!!
It is ok for a couple of days,but when not in use i always turn off and use the boot lace on the kick starter.
I have left it open for a couple of weeks once and smoked the spiders out of the garage!!!

email (option): jamfam@dragnet.com.au

Re: 1944 Norton 16H Wet sumping

We've had this discussion a few times, a quick search of the forum and I found this thread from last year.

http://pub37.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=3155626639&frmid=16&msgid=1382031&cmd=show

email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk

Re: 1944 Norton 16H Wet sumping

From what I've read, there was a batch of faulty valves. These had a clear plastic part so you could see the oil. Unfortunately they broke at the join. I also think some people are using fuel non return valves, the type with a rubber washer. I don't think these are suitable for oil. Just my observations.

email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk

Re: 1944 Norton 16H Wet sumping

Ian, as others have mentioned it does appear to be an inherent Norton problem ! With regular use it's not really an issue but most of us fall in to the occasional use category where the issue manifests itself....

I have found that a NOS oil pump, tapping balls in the oil feed system well onto their seats and meticulous assembly of parts all helps in improving the situation......others have had success fitting modern, newly manufactured oil pumps...

Regarding fitting a tap on the oil feed pipe, I did once attempt this several years back and it did solve the problem. I did all the usual, regularly putting a "remove before flight" sign on the handlebars, tying a bungee cord between the kickstarter and 'bars, etc, and it worked well.....but what I couldn't do was account for human error...on one particular occasion I was in the process of getting ready to go out on the 16H, having removed the various "warning signs", etc, when I was distracted by my phone going off. After taking a 5 minute call, I went back to the bike, put my helmet on, started the thing and rode away.....I'd gone about 4 miles and was travelling at around 50mph when the engine suddenly "nipped up".....instinctively I pulled the clutch in and coasted to a stop as the engine died and then it suddenly hit me that I hadn't turned the tap on due to the earlier distraction interrupting what I was doing......

Fortunately, after a few minutes I tried the kickstarter very carefully and found the engine to turn over as normal......so then started the thing and rode away with the tap now open !!!

Re: 1944 Norton 16H Wet sumping

If you've ever forgotten to turn the petrol on, you will forget the oil tap.

email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk

Re: 1944 Norton 16H Wet sumping

I agree, the only fool proof way to have a manual oil tap is if it is electrically earthed to the contact breakers...Unfortunately, on a magdyno that does require a visual change to the contact breaker cover...If you don't mind that I personally think it's the best solution if it really isn't possible to cure the wet sumping problem....

The 'automatic' valves have been discussed at length previously and personally I have reservations about them based on previous experiences...A problem will probably result in a serious engine failure...

However, it seems results are variable and there are many people (the majority) using them without any problems at all...

I'd just say double check everything is functioning as it should straight after fitment and maybe one or to times more during the first couple of runs...My friends Norton lasted 28 miles...:sob: .Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: 1944 Norton 16H Wet sumping

I've got one of those half plastic valves Horror discribed on my commando.
Have is for years, now.
Works well and I can see it while riding - keeping an eye on it every now and then.

Re: 1944 Norton 16H Wet sumping

There wasn't a problem with the working of those valves, it was the bonding of the plastic. It appears to have been a faulty batch. But once that's happened and a couple of people have seized there engine, it's all over the internet and everyone's got doubts about them. Yours looks like it's not one of the faulty ones. I've got the ally ones, one good thing with the 16H is the oil indicator so you know there's pressure.

email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk

Re: 1944 Norton 16H Wet sumping

I have fitted a brand new modern manufactured oil pump from RGM Norton. 183.00GBP. I loose 1/4 of a tank of oil with the bike sitting from November to the end of May.

email (option): sam-cormier@hotmail.com

Re: 1944 Norton 16H Wet sumping

Any gear pump must have a very slight clearance between the gear teeth and the body or it would not turn. A new manufactured one will eventually loose oil either around the gears or through the gears and i suppose 1/4 of a pint is expected over a 5 month period. My 16H has the original pump and it used to drop around 3/4 of the tank in the same period. I have stripped the pump and examined it, the pump is basically sound with no big score marks or damage teeth. It pumps with good pressure and scavenges well. I honestly don't think it will be very long before a new pump starts to drop a lot more oil than it did from new, all it has to do is bed in and then it has more clearance. I don't think there is a way you could stop this, it's either put up with it or fit a valve or tap which we have discussed many times in the past its all down to what you trust best.

Tim W

email (option): t.j.walker@btinternet.com

Re: 1944 Norton 16H Wet sumping

I've never had much of a problem with wet sumping on the many BSA singles I've owned...I think I must have had a charmed life....That was until I built a replacement engine for my B33 so that I could take out the 720cc engine that was fitted to do some more work on it...

As usual I lapped in an old pump to get it to rotate freely, selecting what appeared to be a good 'donor' pump from the box of pumps I have on the shelf...Once fitted to the bike the engine was fine apart from the fact it was 'dropping' it's oil at an alarming rate..just a few days was enough for it to cause a problem on starting up...

To cut a long story short I fitted a total of three oil pumps and two timing covers (both with new anti drain valve ball and spring fitted)...I used new oil pump gaskets each time...I even made a tool for lapping in the seat for the ball that is fitted into the pump base plate...

All of this resulted in only a slight improvement....I have to admit I was puzzled and could see no other factors that might contribute to the problem...The only common denominator was the fact I was using second hand pumps in every case..

I didn't want to fit a valve into the oil supply side, the 'automatic' valves I just don't like and a manual valve would (in my opinion) require the electrical connection to avoid the possibility forgetting to open it..Further, and perhaps more importantly, I felt that it should be possible to solve the actual problem rather than to treat the symptom of it...That would be the correct engineering solution to my mind....

In the end I decided to fit one of the two NOS oil pumps I had on the shelf that were reserved for other projects...The problem immediately disappeared and the bike will now stand happily for a 'normal' amount of time without dropping its oil....

I have since obtained some more information relating to the oil pumps and still have one unused one for comparison so I intend to look again at the used pumps I tried to determine exactly where the problem lies...This will involve some time and a lot of accurate measurement so it will have to wait until other jobs are done but I'm determined to nail this problem down rather than making any non proven assumptions about the cause(s)...

How long a new pump retains its efficiency for in that regard is entirely a matter of conjecture as I don't believe anyone has yet deliberately tested that principle, so I think it certainly shouldn't be assumed it will degrade in any meaningful timescale to the level of a pump that has been around for 50 plus years or has been subjected to 'lapping in' which may have resulted in it being outside of its intended tolerances...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: 1944 Norton 16H Wet sumping

The Norton of course doesn't have any spring loaded balls so will always be more prone to drain-down. The factory denied the problem right up until 1975 when they fitted a spring-moaded plunger against the outlet of the oil pump in the timing cover. With pressure pushing it open, it is a safe system but has a habit of sticking open and I'm not sure that seals 100% anyway.

The 'new' Andover Norton pumps for the singles are steel-bodied as per the twins. My experience with the twins (admittedly with a cartridge filter in the return line) is that 40,000 to 50,000 miles is about the point where they need looking at.

An original mazac pump, even NOS needs looking at quite carefully before use.

Re: 1944 Norton 16H Wet sumping

['An original mazac pump, even NOS needs looking at quite carefully before use...']

Definitely, and care must be taken not to turn a new pump into a worn one if it needs 'tweeking'..I won't buy new pumps if they are tight to turn because of that risk...

Roll on the day, if it ever comes, when one of the suppliers makes the BSA pump...There are enough bikes out there that use it..

I bought a high output ABSAF pump for my Goldie but at £440 inc. vat it's a bit much to fit one to everything...and I've yet to find out whether that one suffers from the same problem!!....

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: 1944 Norton 16H Wet sumping

It's a common fault on all old bikes , in the old days the problem wasn't so much as these bikes got used daily .

Several ways to tackle the problem.

Inline anti wetsumping valve, very good but have heard horror storys of them sticking shut, but not seen it . My BSA Super Rocket has one and has not caused a problem. Just remember to check the return on start up justin case by looking in the oil tank.

Online tap , works a treat but best to have it wired up so it won't start unless it's turned on, I have noticed people turn these on and off when stopping on short rides , little pointless really if it leeks that much after a few hours you have a worn pump or a bad problem that needs sorting . I have fitted this to my Norton works a treat.

Drain oil from engine .Before start up drain the sump and fill your tank back up.so investing in a sump plate with a drain bolt is a must.

Last one wait until it clears on start up. Not recommended can cause back pressure could damage gaskets and other engine components also builds up of carbon on valves piston and exhaust.





email (option): chriscool@sky.com

Re: 1944 Norton 16H Wet sumping

I've spoken to a fellow Norton WD16H owner who empties his oil tank (after the oil has cooled down a bit) in 2 seconds with a $20 12V oil pump:

https://www.amazon.com/DasMarine-Extractor-Scavenge-Transfer-Suction/dp/B07DCPMP4S/ref=sr_1_5?dchild=1&keywords=12v+oil+pump&qid=1589460517&sr=8-5

He uses it for many years now and is very happy with this solution.

Cheers,

Sven

email (option): snvosselman@gmail.com

Re: 1944 Norton 16H Wet sumping

Sven
I've spoken to a fellow Norton WD16H owner who empties his oil tank (after the oil has cooled down a bit) in 2 seconds with a $20 12V oil pump:

https://www.amazon.com/DasMarine-Extractor-Scavenge-Transfer-Suction/dp/B07DCPMP4S/ref=sr_1_5?dchild=1&keywords=12v+oil+pump&qid=1589460517&sr=8-5

He uses it for many years now and is very happy with this solution.

Cheers,

Sven
My 16H was leaving a large puddle of oil on the floor in a few days, even after the pump was lapped in. It would be inconvenient to empty the tank when I parked up. I could empty it out of the drain plug if I wanted to. The thing is, even in the Summer it could be more than 3 or 4 day between using the bike, so I would be emptying the tank ever time I used it. For me, the valve was the best solution.

email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk

Re: 1944 Norton 16H Wet sumping

A valve is the most cost effective solution for sure and on the whole the 'automatic' ones seem to work OK, there's no disputing that....
It is possible to have problems with them though and I think it's best to mention that during any discussion of the topic...At the end of the day it's only a matter of checking a few times after it's fitted to ensure there is a return to the oil tank and the valve is functioning as intended...

Fitting a new pump worked for me, only time will tell whether it is effectively a 'permanent' solution..It costs a lot more though!...I actually bought one of the valves but didn't fit it, for me it's not the answer I'm looking for, even though I tried to convince myself it might be....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

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