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Rescuing my Raf WD Norton Part 3

Hi everyone so I thought I'd start part 3 thread wise on my Raf 16H Norton.

Firstly just want to say a truly huge thank you to everyone that's been putting up with my endless questions giving me advice and selling me parts. Wouldn't be this far without all your help!

So what we know so far as a bit of a recap :) RAF Norton WD16H Late 44' Ordered Contract for 560 RAF Sidecar Combinations.

Shes now sporting her original wartime Raf number on her petrol tank thanks to one of the researchers who works with the RAF. Still pinching myself over how lucky I was with that.

He also had 3 one side an 5 other side of mine interestingly for others they were running in order.

Can't wait to get to the museum when this is all over as I've built a list up of pictures I'd like to check out that arn't online that all mention Raf dispatch riders.

Seen a copy of the Ministry of Supply Ledger for the original order contract thanks to one of our members.

Restoring her in remembrance of my Grandpa George Steele RIP who served in the Royal Artillery 8th Army from 1941 - 1944 and RAOC 8th Army again 1944-1946. From what we know he was in Tobruk and El-Alamein on the largest guns as a gunner. Sending of for his record when the covid is over.



As well my dads mentor an friend may he rest in peace was a Dambuster Gunner.

Feels so humbling to be restoring her as I've dreamt about doing a wd bike for years to use an ride all the time.

Sometimes the bikes lead you down the route they want to be restored initially my plan was to do her in army desert trim but I feel really happy that I decided to stay true to the bike an her history.

Thanks again to everyone that's shown me original pictures an some that are very close to my bikes number as well! Been invaluable resources.

We found scc.2 on nearly all the bike in including the frame so stuck with that.

Feels special to be restoring an Raf bike on the 80th Anniversary of the Battle of Britain. For everyone who served in all the divisions of the armed forces. Lest we forget.

Anyway enough of me rambling on here's some pictures.
How she was when I got her.



How she is now :)









An a link to the video playlist should have a couple uploading this week.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLz4rqyNk3Ie-Uku_F-qJq8T3FB8jUcOL2

Left to get,

Might need a timing / cam chest cover found some damage on the outer cover where the bush is for the exhaust cam in the metal casting.

Norton Throttle, vokes air filter, Bash plate, Rear late carrier, Pannier Racks, Late Pillion seat,pillion foot rests, horn button an correct amp meter.

Thanks again everyone an hope you enjoy the pics :)

email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

Re: Rescuing my Raf WD Norton Part 3

Looking good Tom.

Keep up the good work!

Steve

Re: Rescuing my Raf WD Norton Part 3

Thanks Steve :) been painting my headlight an blackout today I'll post some pics tomorrow

email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

Re: Rescuing my Raf WD Norton Part 3

Episode 25 Doing the Roundels.

https://youtu.be/iujId1la3Vg


Episode 26 showing her fitted with the blackout grabbed my Canon 1D Out to film for a lil one an edited on my phone not ideal but not bad.

https://youtu.be/fO6_qnAV8sQ

email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

Re: Rescuing my Raf WD Norton Part 3

That's looking really good Tom, can't wait to hear it start up, that's always the best bit of a restoration :slightly_smiling_face:

email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk

Re: Rescuing my Raf WD Norton Part 3

Thanks mate :) she is really starting to come together now.

email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

Re: Rescuing my Raf WD Norton Part 3

Does anyone know the sizes for the following bolts an nuts :)

Doherty air/adv clamp screws

Bowden 1" clamp screws

Lever to perch pivot bolt bowden (the ones with the split in the lever.

Thanks in advance

email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

Re: Rescuing my Raf WD Norton Part 3

The screws for the Norton Doherty clamps (and indeed the Doherty twistgrip) are 3/16" x 28 tpi !

The earlier pivot screws are 1/4" x 26tpi...which they probably didn't change but I'm not sure about the shoulders on screw and nut.

Re: Rescuing my Raf WD Norton Part 3

I had to get some for my advance and choke, the thread is 1BA

email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk

Re: Rescuing my Raf WD Norton Part 3

Yes, I've just checked some original screws in a Doherty twistgrip, they are raised head and they are 0.203"x28 tpi, so 1BA, 3/16" comes out at 0.185". The lever pivot screws are 1/4x 26 tpi x 3/4 long, measured from below the head, with an unthreaded portion 5/16" long. There is a locknut at the end which is a special, being the size for a 3/16 nut across the flats,ie.approx 0.350", but threaded 1/4 x26 tpi. These screws are available from various stainless fastener suppliers, ask for 1BA lever clamp screws, or they may be available from Nookies Nuts in m/s.

Tom could you post some pics of your clutch/brake levers, I'm looking for these for my 16H and Big4, have got some parts but not sure if they are right, Ron showed some levers on your post, are yours the same?

I have been following your progress with the bike, coming along really well, an inspiration to us all, and I look forward to seeing it.



Best wishes
Tony

Re: Rescuing my Raf WD Norton Part 3

If they are 1BA and the parts are Norton Doherty then oversized screws have been used.

I measured mine recently due to a query on another forum. They are 3/16" as confirmed by the Spare Parts Lists.

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Scannen0008-2

Re: Rescuing my Raf WD Norton Part 3

Thanks lads as usual huge help! Was struggling sussing that all out.

I'll take some pictures tomorrow Tony of what I've got lever wise so far. Mine are the ones with the splits up the levers for the brake an clutch :) shes really coming along now, got a replacment timing/cam cover on the way from a friend as mines got a crack around the exhaust cam bush, gonna order a new chain to, an have a look at the carb tomorrow an sus out what I need for that while I sort these lever bits out an hunt for the right throttle an horn button then the bar assy is finished :) really getting close to firing her up.

Pretty much just gotta get in no particular order
Norton throttle 1"
Late type oil tank with the seam
Vokes
Rear late carrier
Pannier frames an bags
Field stand an skid plate
Late Pillion seat an footrests
Correct amp meter
Right screws an fluted glass for the blackout
An make some propper exhausts brackets in the right style once I'm able to order some metal an learn how to make em :)

email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

Re: Rescuing my Raf WD Norton Part 3

Rik
If they are 1BA and the parts are Norton Doherty then oversized screws have been used.

I measured mine recently due to a query on another forum. They are 3/16" as confirmed by the Spare Parts Lists.






It's all come flooding back now Rik, we had this dilemma when I asked this question about 18 months ago. I've been trying to find the thread (pardon the pun . I know you're right as goes the parts book size but I couldn't work out what was happening with the levers I've got. My adv/choke screws all measure at 0.196" and I've got a few levers here. As Tony says 3/16" should be 0.185", and 1BA is about 0.209. These are in between. In the end I sent the lever housing and the screw to a Tap and Die company (Uni-thread I think). There answer was it's worn 1BA screw?

These look to be original screws in these levers, so taken 2 out of different sets, both measure the same 0.196"

image

image

This is the throttle screw out of my 16H

image

image

The book might say 3/16" but I haven't found one that measures 0.185". Is it possible to buy 3/16" x 28 screws?

email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk

Re: Rescuing my Raf WD Norton Part 3

Oh dear, this is getting complicated isn't it?
The screws in my twist grip are definitely 1ba, a tap goes down easily using just fingers. I assumed the other levers would use the same screws, silly me, never assume anything. When I try these in my air and mag levers they are too big but I don't have any original screws for these. A 3/16 BSF screw, 32 tpi. I think, only goes in a turn or two and tightens up so not right, so it seems 28x3/16 it is. Maybe they are used in model engineering, I certainly don't have any.

Horror, thanks for posting clear pics of your levers, makes it easier to know what I'm looking for, Ron let me have the air and mag levers but I still need clutch and brake for the 16H and Big 4, do you have any spare, any condition at all as long as they are theright ones?

Tony

Re: Rescuing my Raf WD Norton Part 3

I can't answer why they seem to have worked with a nominal .19"...I have some undamaged, unstretched screws...and they are closer to .1875" than they are to .2087" It looks to me as if they are rolled threads and that they became slightly oversized on the peaks.

I'm consistently measuring the shanks at .19" which is 4.826mm..I can't believe that this is a damaged .2087" (5.3mm)

All I can say is that new 1 BA screws don't fit into NOS levers and if anyone wants to use 1 BA screws then they'll need to run a tap through first...which is why I'm running slightly tatty old screws in mine.

I don't believe that 3/16" x 28tpi fillister are commercially available.

Re: Rescuing my Raf WD Norton Part 3

I buy BA and other small fasteners from this helpful guy, who says that he will make other specials on request.
https://www.ba-bolts.co.uk/index.html

Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: Rescuing my Raf WD Norton Part 3

I agree Rik, I can't see how these screws can be worn that much from a 1BA. You reminded me I've got a NOS lever, so one last measurement to see if it's nearer 0.185.

image

Unbelievably it's exactly 0.196" again, the screw is quite tight in the thread but goes in with a screwdriver, not by hand.

image

I've just ordered a 3/16" x 28 tap for future use.

Sorry Tony, I haven't got any spare clutch/brake levers. If you are using my picture as a reference, my choke lever has an early mount but the later small hex, it should be larger on the early ones. I've been meaning to change it for this NOS one but not got round to it.


email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk

Re: Rescuing my Raf WD Norton Part 3

They're only going into brass, aren't they ? so even with years of abuse, they shouldn't have been graunched away.

It's a puzzle....As if they knew that they were tapping sloppily and went oversized on the screws too....If I didn't have it in print as well, I'd think that it was something in-between...But they documented it !

What size does the plain shank measure ? That was presumably the initial diameter prior to thread rolling ?

Re: Rescuing my Raf WD Norton Part 3

Thanks guys really appreciate all this info I'll pop that bolt place a message Ron :)

email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

Re: Rescuing my Raf WD Norton Part 3

The screws in the NOS one measure 0.207" before the thread, the dull plated early ones are about 0.2". Looks like they got fatter with age :-)

email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk

Re: Rescuing my Raf WD Norton Part 3

dare I mention the dreaded 3 letter word..oil lol

Anyone using anything particular in the engine an gearboxes saw it was 50 weight monograde in the book but wasn't sure about detergent or none detergent. With it not having a spin on filter.

Take it you just use the 50 weight in the gearbox an not the ep stuff?

Cheers,

Tom

email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

Re: Rescuing my Raf WD Norton Part 3

Gonna be some progress this weekend:)

Ended up with two covers an some other parts small stuff like screws an oil line parts + fuel line an stuff.

Hoping to get the better of the two covers fitted tomorrow then the mag.

Here's a picture of the current levers I've got for her.

Just gotta find a Norton 1" throttle, horn button, vokes, late type oil tank with the rib, panniers an racks :)



email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

Re: Rescuing my Raf WD Norton Part 3

Tom, It' still progressing well, thanks for posting the lever pics

Best wishes Tony.

Re: Rescuing my Raf WD Norton Part 3

Thanks Tony sorry it took a while had to help dad with some house stuff for a few days.

Another hugely productive day today using a combination of covers I got her fitted up with the cam chest/timing cover an got the MagDyno installed to!
Got a problem with the carb that I need to weigh up for the next lot of progress .


email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

Re: Rescuing my Raf WD Norton Part 3

One socially distancing Norton
Sat in the front garden with the Norton an all the windows done up with Ve Day prints



Watching The BBC program on the laptop.



So many youngsters looking with there parents really great to see.



Thanks again to everyone that's helped me get this far with her.



email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

Re: Rescuing my Raf WD Norton Part 3

What a wonderfull Ve75 so far been speaking to so many people who have been walking past socially distancing of course been great seeing the younger generation showing a genuine interest to :)
Tea in the front garden and ww2 music playing!

My 1944 Raf Norton 16H spo
Lest we forget





email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

Re: Rescuing my Raf WD Norton Part 3

Hi everyone thought I'd check in sorry I've not been updating much been a crazy few weeks our front porch decided to no longer be a front porch! so I've had to help dad out a bit so lil strapped on funds at the moment.

Been working on a yamaha rd250lc I've had since i was 19 an got all the bits for to keep myself sane.

Soon as these hail storms stop I'm gonna get her out over the next few days an fit the chain an chain guard might have to run the rear rack I've got for now an put a hold on the vokes plan for a while.

The lever screws came for the levers unfortunately they don't fit the nos ones so thinking of buying a 1ba tap and running them through with that.

Carb wise I know I need to replace the slide as that was a big 4 one and broken where the needle clips in.

Need to give the rest of that a clean :)

After that it's make the wiring and get a modern regulator to sit in the mcr1.

Then I should be super close to trying to get her to run really excited!

Hope everyone is keeping safe an well.

email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

Re: Rescuing my Raf WD Norton Part 3

Tom, good to see you are still keen and working on the Norton. Re the levers I wouldn't risk running a IBA tap through the thread. cutting a new thread into an existing one is a real bad idea you'll get a weak thread that may strip when you tighten the screws and the levers need need to be completely secure, its a safety issue. Are the IBA screws too big, if so try 2BA, they are only slightly smaller and some levers do use this size. Some times 2BA screw get mistakenly used in 1BA holes and they will go in and even tighten up to some extent, but always fail eventually. 1BA will not go into a 2BA hole though. Some nasty modern repro levers use metric screws so I hope yours aren't these type.

All the best
Tony

Re: Rescuing my Raf WD Norton Part 3

Hi Tony thanks for the reply

They are the propper Jobbies lever wise not modern thank god. the air an adv are nos and one of my lever clamps is as well.

The 1BA screws I got on the recommendation of the bolt place alas don't go into the lever clamps for the clutch an brake or my air controls. I'll get it sussed out somehow.

They go in about half a turn then come to a dead stop don't fancy forcing them.

It looks from what others posted that Norton used a weird pitch size just scuppering me from getting the cables on at the moment so open to suggestions everyone :) super excited to see her with all the levers on.

I'll get a new vernier battery an see what the screws measure up at.

email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

Re: Rescuing my Raf WD Norton Part 3

I think you'll have to see if the place Ron suggested above will make 3/16" x 28 tpi screws, as these are not available. I bought a tap in this size to see if it's correct and it is. I couldn't work out why the screws are measuring bigger, maybe it's measured from the smaller diameter of the thread and not the outer. That would make sense when drilling a hole, if it was the outer size you wouldn't be able to cut a 3/16" thread in it.

email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk

Re: Rescuing my Raf WD Norton Part 3

10 - 28 UNS ...(3/16" x 28 tpi)....That's an unusual thread if that's what it is....2BA has an outside diameter of .185" (3/16" = .187")so that's a possibility but it's 31.4 tpi...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: Rescuing my Raf WD Norton Part 3

The Unified Thread form (of which 10-28 UNS was part) was developed after the second world war by Canada, the U.S.A and Gt. Britain to ensure compatibility and to overcome the problems encountered during the war when thread forms were not standardised...

Funnily enough, here in the next century, threads are still not standardised and probably never will be...In fact there are more threads now than there were then...

So, quite what that means for these lever threads is unclear...It seems they can't be using a post war thread form if they were made during the war...As yet I can't find any other thread which is 28tpi at 3/16" diameter...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: Rescuing my Raf WD Norton Part 3

Thanks guys great info as always an very much appreciated that's where I got these ones from on the recommendation of speaking to the guy :)

Yep it's crazy isn't it Ian I agree don't think we will ever get standardised I own an early commando as well one of the first 100 that I'm rebuilding an that's even more of a nightmare for different everything bolt wise! :)

Typical Norton hey lads! They always have to do something different.

email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

Re: Rescuing my Raf WD Norton Part 3

Success everyone :) got the lever screws sorted thanks to Nick for some advice on them ended up with 2ba x 3/4inch which fit pretty much perfectly just had to trim the length down a bit an go in an out a handful of times by hand.

Next thing to sort is a throttle slide for the carb an to try clean the inside of the carb body up.

Plan now is just to get her running so i can start to use her, then look at all the bits an peices like the racks vokes etc.



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email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

Re: Rescuing my Raf WD Norton Part 3


email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

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