An ex Wehrmacht Ariel WNG has turned up...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Here's another pic...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Ian.
I had heard of one for sale (not sure if it was a WNG) in Germany. Something to do with someone in the management of BMW or thereabouts.
Total sleeper. Captured bike run in the Wehrmacht, totally original and untouched ?
Richard.

email (option): richardpurkiss@hotmail.com

Extraordinairy.
Should it be kept in this condition ?
After all, it's a piece of history.

Please don't restore this, it must be unique, gentle recommissioning only and a piece of history is preserved, it can only be original once.

Is it a WN/G ? If so then it must have been captured in Italy...It has been run post-war, judging by the reflector and the rear lamp...Tank paintwork seems a little odd too...Why would the Wehrmacht paint details of an 8km test run on top of the fuel tank ?

WH29779 is a very low registration number, issued pre-war to the Wehrkreis II(Military District)at Stettin...

I'd be very careful about this one.

Didn't the French Army receive some W/NG's just prior to the German invasion ?

Rik...What makes you say it was captured in Italy?...Although the paint looks like the German 'Dunkel gelb' colour it is also very similar to the later war German colour used for the cammo pattern 'base'...

It certainly has some very typically European parts retro fitted as was done to many captured bikes....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Just the date, Ian...The BEF hand no W/NGs and there were lots in Italy...Greece could have been a possibility but then the date on the fuel tank is two years later...Whereabouts is it now ?

Gary could be right. It still has it's early luggage rack and rubber mounted bars and bolted on pillion foot rests. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

The bike was found in France but is now in the UK...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Do we know the frame and engine numbers? I have access to the Ariel ledgers with the French contract bikes...

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

Are there any more photos Ian ?

This is the only other photo I have at the moment...I'll try to get the engine and/or frame number...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Thankyou Ian, headlight is typical pre-war/wartime fitment as found on BMW R12 & Zundapps KS600 motorcycles.
Gary

So is the speedometer and the steering damper knob.

I am not 100% sure but the front hub does not look like a W/NG one.
It looks like a pressed steel one with a speedo drive box on the nearside.
Nice is the green emailled tank logo, only on early W/NG's
3 brush dynamo ?

email (option): vincent@vincentvanginneke.com

It's all purely speculative in the absence of a frame and engine number.........

It is, however, looking to be a pre-1942 W/NG on account of the early rear carrier, rubber-mounted handlebar, screw-on tank badges, etc.....is that KG.No.3 I can see on the left side of the fuel tank on the tank badges and where the knee grip rubber was....?

Does any one know what the writing on the tank is translated,8km road test (Riks translation),could part of the red writing translate to OHV, maybe it was tested by the Germans at a testing site for captured vehicles and they wrote details on the tank for future reference,there is also most of a Triumph 5SW still with original German paint/markings in the UK.

Last time I saw that one it was owned by Steve Jones of Yeoman's. I sold him a rear mudguard tail piece for it.
I can't remember anything about the frame and engine numbers, but I wonder how it got into German ownership? Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Not the same bike Ron, I can state with complete certainty that he didn't own this particular Ariel...He may have had an Ariel, but not this one...What Steve does have is a Triumph with German markings that was brought back from North Africa and I suspect is the one mentioned in Steves previous post...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

You misunderstood me Ian. See Steve S's previous post! It is the Triumph I'm talking about. It was in the back of his pick up on one of my visits to Steve Jones with Gordon. It was missing at least it's tail piece and I sold him one that was quite a good match for the 'patina'd' paintwork. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Apologies Ron...I did indeed misunderstand the post...:hugging_face: ....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

If it is indeed a French Government contract Ariel then it must be pretty much a unique survivor and deserves investigation in detail as little is known of the specifications. They were clearly the predecessor of the W/NG but were listed by Ariel simply as 'NG' although they were single port with none of the deLuxe parts.

Translation:

K? Reichenberg
Firm Otto Seidel
Test Drive: 8 km
Accepted: 27-09-43
Loaded: 18.9.?? (18.09.43 ?)

Reichenberg is a small town near Würzburg Germany. There is a railway-station which makes it possible to load and unload bigger quantities of vehicles. I have tried to find out something about the firm of Otto Seidel. Otto Seidel however is a “ common” name in Germany. I’m still sorting out!

email (option): Phtl2007@xs4all.nl

A workshop getting captured bike operational for the German Army?....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Hi, I'm the owner of the 1940 Ariel (W) NG350. Totally original untouched since 1945. Matching frame & engine numbers from the factory. 1 of 153 produced this being the only known survivor. Regards

Thanks for the email Chris. A time capsule indeed. I've included your pictures. Those pesky Germans pinched the tool boxes! And it looks like it's suffering the dodgy rubber mount handlebar syndrome. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Have we worked out if this was a C5111 bike or one of those deliveries to the mysterious agency ?

The manufacturing date from Ariel is 14th March 1940 with delivery to the French government on the 29th April, just before Dunkirk where it was captured. It then went to Stettin Poland and sometime between 1940/43 the Wehrmacht shipped it to Reichenberg (German for what is known as Liberec) Czechoslavakia. Towards the end of the war/1945, it was hidden in a barn untouched until the early 1990s when it was purchased and then stored in Germany until this year.
According to the dated certificate, it's an Ariel NG350 the and the only known survivor of the first ever 153 bikes produced, which were supposed to be part of an order the French had placed for 500 bikes, however, due to the invasion of France Ariel never completed order.
The bike is a true piece of WW2 history. Any further help/information would of course be really appreciated. Rgards Chris

Thanks Ron, I'm pleased people appreciate it. I can't stop looking at it and spotting different things. Yes first batch rubber mounted handlebars and grips (although the grips have since been changed to Magura type), early Ariel rear rack and to my knowledge early civilian type mudguards e.g. the front mudguard has the brackets for the number plate which I believe the later bikes did not have.
To keep the bike running, the Germans also changed the headlight to a Zundapp ZS600 one, the speedo to kph and I think the speedo drive, Czech tyres, rear seat & footpegs, Wehrmacht number plate, rear light and a BMW/Zundapp silencer. All original WW2.

The front pipe appears to have a dip in it under the timing case. This must be another pre war bike part. The W/NG pipe is straight. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

First of all, this is a fantastic find. A real time machine. Thanks for sharing, think we would all love to discover something like this.

But... I don't want to piss on your bonfire Chris, but this is all looking very weird. You don't want to share the bike's numbers with us, which is OK. But if I would own this bike, I would have taken a million photographs. You always show us the same pictures, as if that's all you have. And the story that you're telling doesn't make sense. You say that the manufacturing date is March 14th 1940, and that the bike was delivered to the French government on April 29th. Well, the ledgers only give one date, not two, and the deliveries of the French bikes only started in May! Matching numbers? Ariels didn’t have matching numbers! And you know the complete history within the German Army? Where did you find that? I'd love to believe your story Chris, but you will have to try harder to convince me.

Jan

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

I agree with Jan, from the two pictures supplied and no other evidence I'm 50/50 on it, the stencilling on the tank is pretty unconvincing in my opinion.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

I have to agree with Rob about the stencil. I'm not entirely convinced.

Was it common practice to put all that information on the petrol tank? Including the length of the test run? It seems a bit odd to me. I also notice that the number 7 appears in its 'anglicized' form - it doesn't look like the way a continental German would write a 7.

I'm willing to be convinced either way, so I'm not trying to offend anyone! I'm just pointing out what seem to be unusual features.

Allan

email (option): allanmatchless@yahoo.com

Hello Allan, the stencil/writing on the tank is 100% genuine. However, it's possible someone has touched up the number '8' and the '27.9.43' date because they were fading/wearing away. Compare the 27.9.43 date to the 18.9.44 date just below and you can see there is a difference. Furthermore, I've seen up close in Germany a BMW R66 used by the Wehrmancht painted in the same dunkelgelb/dark yellow paint with same type of lettering & information on the tank. In my research, the P1ahv & 5 relates to the 1st Panzer divison whereas the service information was put onto the tank by the local motorcycle dealer that the Wehrmacht used. It was common practice for the Germans to use local garages etc to service the vehicles and for the dealer to add information onto the vehicle e.g. if the bike/vehicle had any problems or needed spares the Germans would be able to trace it back to the garage to repair/service the bike. Considering the Germans where running short of resources/materials, it would have made perfect sence to ultilise whatever resource was available. In fact, after the invasion of France, half of the German mechanised army were driving French manufactured vehicles, which were then used on the Russian front. NB at the early part of the war just 20% of the German army was mechanised. Pushbikes and horses were widely used but the propaganda 'machine' would only film the tanks, trucks, motorcycles etc.

Interesting, but that doesn't answer Jans questions..?...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

I hope you are right Chris but 100% is pushing it, surly there must always be some doubt however small?

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Hi Ian, I must admit I had and still have lots of questions and as such would very much appreciate any help whatsoever further researching information relating to the bike hence my emails in the first place. I'm hoping Jan can further help with this. The original conversation in 2020 referred to the bike being in Germany, which I can confirm is correct as I visited the previous owner at his home to purchase the bike. The previous owner purchased the bike in the early 1990s from the farmer/farm where it was left towards the end of the war/1945. The bike was then stored in a private house until I recently purchased it. I'm an enthusiast and will take the opportunity to thank people for being interested in the bike.

Hi Rob, thanks for taking interest in this. I was the same as you but then seeing the writing on the tank up close confirmed that it's genuine. Regards Chris

Chris has sent me the details of his acquisition, and although the frame and engine numbers are not "matching", they do belong to the same bike according to the Ariel Ledgers. And what's more, I can positively confirm that this is a French Army contract Ariel NG, despatched from the factory on May 14th 1940. Between April 29th and June 8th, 255 Ariels made it to France. Those that didn't cross the channel were transferred to the British Army. So yes, this is a fantastic discovery!

Jan

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

For those who still doubt the written text on the tank.
Here is an example of a DKW NZ tank. The original black paint has been painted over with camo paint.
(not my tank, found this picture in the ''DKW prewar and wartime'' facebook group).



Chris, I'd love to see pictures of that BMW tank.

email (option): gubbels943@hotmail.com

Typical German DIN Schrift stencils.

Jan

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

Thank you Jan, for your all your help, expertise and information provided, it's extremely appreciated. You clearly have fantastic knowledge.

Darryl, for some reason, I can't figure out how to upload a photo of the BMW tank? I email you a copy.

The text on the tank is intriguing:
KP Reichenberg
Fa Otto Seidl

We've got two German abbreviations here: "KP" and "Fa". Fa is easy, it means "Firma" or "company". KP is more difficult. I searched for "KP Abkurzung" in Google and found this website. I think "Kontrollpunkt" (something like "control point" or "checkpoint") could be the most obvious choice here.

But there were two Reichenbergs in the German Reich. One is close to Dresden, the other one is in the current Czech Republic, and is now called Liberec. I've googled "Otto Seidl Reichenberg" but there were no hits, except the one that leads to this forum thread. Then I tried "Otto Seidl Liberec", and Google found his curriculum vitae! The text is in Czech, but isn't Google translate fantastic:

Vyučil se zámečníkem, v Chrastavě si otevřel autodílnu, dovážel motocykly zn. Ariel. Ve 20. letech založil v Chrastavě motoristický klub Nordböhmischer Ariel Klub. Sám byl motocyklovým závodníkem, spolu se svými svěřenci úspěšně zúčastnil mnoha závodů. Po druhé světové válce byl i se svou rodinou odsunut do Německa.

In Shakespeare's language: He trained as a locksmith, opened a car workshop in Chrastava, imported Ariel motorcycles. In the 1920s, he founded the Nordböhmischer Ariel Klub motorcycle club in Chrastava. He himself was a motorcycle racer, together with his wards he successfully participated in many races. After World War II, he and his family were deported to Germany.

Abnahme 27.9.43 would have been the date when Otto Seidl got this bike in his workshop, where he must have done a "rebuild" (whatever that may have been).

After the rebuild he did an 8km Probefahrt (testride).

Verladen 18.2.44 would mean that the bike was loaded (by the Wehrmacht I guess) on 18.2.44.

The numbers have been hand painted, the rest of the text is stencilled in the typical German "DIN Schrift" stencils that can still be found in Germany up to this day. Looks as if Otto didn't have stencils for the numbers...

Jan

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

We can even put a face on the name of Otto Seidl. On this website I found some information, unfortunately in Czech, and I can't copy/paste the text to Google Translate. Anybody here who can do a translation?

Anyway, according to the "Gewerbeschein" (Business Licence) he had a workshop at "Chrastava 487 Kratzau". The workshop was a "Schlossergewerbe" (locksmith), with "Reparaturanstalt für Fahrräder und Kraftfahrzeuge" (repair shop for bicycles and motor vehicles).

Wiki tells us that "Until 1945, Chrastava was a place with a predominantly German-speaking population. After the Second World War, the German-speaking population was expelled."




Jan

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

Jan, you're a genius, thank you so much for finding this fantastic piece of history. I'm currently speaking with a chap in Czech. Rep who should be able to help with the translation. He mentioned something about there being an a motorcycle racer who had an Ariel dealership living near Richenberg who started the local Ariel club, although I've not yet seen any information on this - up until now that is. He said that he would research more and share his findings with me. I will share your findings with him and will provide an update.
One again thank you so much for all your help, really appreciated. Regards Chris

This is a picture from François Vauvillers' article "1940 - Les motos Britanniques de l'armée française" in GBM N°123 (jan/feb/mar 2018). It shows K0932, one of the 255 Ariels that made it to France. Registration numbers K0901 - K3000 were reserved for the Ariels, but obviously only 255 numbers from this block had been issued before the channel ports were blocked. The K numbers were stencilled in this typically French font.

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

Jan, I love the photo, it's a piece of history with links to my bike. I only have a few at this stage but I'm trying to collect as many photos of the French Ariels as possible hence I really appreciate the article you sent to me. I know you mentioned the registrations but is there anyway of finding out the registration for my bike? Chris

For as far as I know, the French registration number was only applied to the front and rear numberplates. The front one is missing on your bike, and the rear one has been replaced... :white_frowning_face:

I've contacted François Vauvillier (editor of GBM). Hope he can add something to what we have already found.

Jan

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

Thank you Jan, much appreciated.

Two other early Ariels captured by the Germans. French contract or impressed civilian BEF?

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

Brilliant photos Jan, I will add these to my collection. Looking at the steering damper knob, I think these are W/NG bikes. Fascinating to see them in the hands of the Germans.
My contact in Czechoslovakia has put me in contact with another chap who should be able to help with the research. I will keep you posted.

First effort of uploading photos.

And this is 487 Kratzau now, the orange building in the foreground.

Wow that is another piece of history, thank you for sharing. The Ariel International rally is in the Czech Republic 2023. I need to make plans….

Well, the photos worked, Chris. Do you have any possibility to compare the colour from under the knee grip with British Khaki Green No.3 ? It looks like it, and Ariel had supplied the War Office with 100 500cc side valve W/VAs in 1939 so they presumably had paint stocks ?

Rik, the khaki green is of course the first colour and can be found under the petrol tank (including the original cloth tape holding the wiring loom in place) and on various other parts of the bike. I think you’re already aware but just in case, the Germans then painted the bike dark grey and then some time later with what they referred to as dark yellow, a colour that was formed out of earth pigment. They were running low on resources so apparently made the colour from earth pigment and from Feb 1942 gave instructions to use this colour as the standard paint.

Chris,

What I'm not aware of (and I've not thought to ask), is the original colour of the French contract machines. French vehicle colours in 1939 were complicated, to say the least...I'm pretty sure that the Enfield WD/Cs were KG3 though.

The French were being very optimistic (or burying their heads) in 1940 when they ordered 5000 very large and very shiny, green and black Indian Chief (CAV) outfits. More of those in German use than anyone. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Gary, if you look on google maps at this location and spin around from the house, you will see a vehicle maintenance workshop opposite with a Lucas sign, possible indication of a previous use by another British brand Ariel.

Yes I did wonder if that might be associated, here are the pictures of it, also what looks like a old Russian army truck in the yard.

That's it! Must be a link, too much of a coincidence.

I have a contact in the Czech Republic who has kindly sent me the following information and the attached two photos of the annual Ariel Company meeting in Prague, held between 1928/32.
My contact said that his grand-grand father was co-owner of the company Štěpař, Hanák a spol, which was interested in importing Ariel motorcycles from England. Otto Seidel (the name on the tank of the Ariel NG350 in this post) was one of the best motorcycle dealers and won a lot of races as well and is No.8 in the attached photo.
The head of Ariel Works (United Kindom), Jack Sangster, invited all dealers from Czechoslowakia to meet in Prague, and is No.1 in the photo with my contact's grand-grand father No.10. Alongside Jack Sangster is No.2 Mr. Vladimír Štěpař co-owner of the company Štěpař a Hanák a spol. and on other side No.7 Herbert Kershaw United Kingdom embassy in Prague.

I recently picked this booklet up on ebay for my 1940 WNG.

email (option): burt.danny@yahoo.co.uk

Nice picture! thank you.
And in the center the Ariel horse designed by Victor Mole the Ariel company's PR manager

Hello Vincent, thank you for sharing, it’s a fantastic piece of history. I’m learning so much about the history of Ariel through likeminded people kindly sharing information, which is really appreciated. Regards Chris

Nice find well done 👍