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What years are service brown?

Hi all can anyone let me know what year triumph or Bsa m20 we’re painted service brown during ww2
Many thanks simon

Re: What years are service brown?

Just had a look in one of Mike Starmer's books and he quotes ACI 1160 May 30th 1942 as the change to Brown SCC No.2 but there is mention of "until present stocks are exhausted", so it could be a bit later?

ACI 533 12 April 1944 "Olive Drab will be adopted as the basic camouflage colour", but again there is mention of Brown continuing for some time with some Companies?

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Re: What years are service brown?

Sorry to step in, what colour was it before1942? So few are painted brown yet that must be the most common colour.
Maybe it’s just me but when I go to shows the only brown bikes I seem to see are matchless g3 or g3l’s
Is it because nobody likes brown?
Regards Steve

email (option): Johnsonsteve386@gmail.com

Re: What years are service brown?

You are right Steve, loads would have been Brown. We are conditioned to think of army vehicles as Green (I've Never seen a brown army Dinky Toy). The Service colour from 39-42 was Khaki Green No3. I think it was a shortage of the Yellow Ocher that was used in the Khaki that instigated the change to Service Brown. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: What years are service brown?

When I asked my dad who arrived in France in June 1944 and went through to the end of the war in Schleswig Holstein what colour the British and Commonwealth vehicles were, his answer was 'Brown, mostly'...Logical really as most units had been re-equipped during the preceding two years and the April 1944 change had barely come through.

There really should be a lot more of it on restored vehicles.

Re: What years are service brown?

Well I think a lot of us should be a little bit ashamed, I think most of want our bikes to be exactly as they were in the war, to educate up and coming generations to show them how it was and etc,then ruin it by painting them olive drab!
I can’t talk tho, mine is painted in desert colours!!:joy: :joy:

email (option): Johnsonsteve386@gmail.com

Re: What years are service brown?

Thanks so much for your replies, I’ve painted my triumph in service brown, in a very slightly lighter shade of service brown, will post some pics for you all later...
Cheers Simon in reigate

Re: What years are service brown?

Very interesting guys I've been stripping the paint on mine which is a late 44'ordered contract for a 16h raf sidecar combo.

On pretty much most of the bike I've found traces of scc.2. Tank, frame, footrests, speedo bracket etc. Quite interesting :)

Before that though after seeking advice of you guys I ordered some Scc.2 brown. On a mission to learn what's right an what's not being one of the younger members at 30.

So thanks to everyone that's been advising so far.

Looking forward to getting her painted soon as next door finish with there darn building work.



email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

Re: What years are service brown?

I had this 1943 M20 wrongly painted green for years but I like it more in brown.

Rob

DSCN5685

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Re: What years are service brown?

Ron. Interested in your comment about not having enough yellow ochre to make the green paint. Its around mid/late '42 through to mid/late'43 that a lot of jerry can manufacturers put a lot of their production out in a yellow ochre colour. I wonder 2 things.

1. Could the lack of yellow for the green mix be because the yellow was being deliberately used on the equipment destined for north africa ? or,
2. Once the switch to brown was made, the yellow that did become available was then surplus to needs so was used for the jerry cans. There is a lot of evidence for yellow cans being issued for the D-Day invasion so those cans were not destined for North Africa.
Is there any written evidence relating to the use or lack of yellow ochre pigment / paint ?
Richard

email (option): richardpurkiss@hotmail.com

Re: What years are service brown?

Mike Starmer has a section on it in one of his camouflage books, he says it was a shortage of chromium oxide which caused the inability to make green pigments.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Re: What years are service brown?

I made a website page on colours based on work of Mike Starmer and Steve Madden a number of years ago.
https://www.wdnorton.nl/Colours.html

Steve spoke mostly based on experience with finding many NOS parts. (Correct me if I am wrong Steve).
Mike did a very thorough research to the actual published regulations around paints and the use thereof and wrote a self published booklet on it.
Both men actually wrote texts on the website.

I can fully imagine that if there was still a stash of SSC2 in the Norton stocks they would have used it until depleted.
That may well have been into 1945.
The regulations also state that stocks need to be depleted before starting with new paint.

I am fairly sure discussions on paints and colours will remain a never ending story.

Cheers,

Rob

www.wdnorton.nl





email (option): wd16h@telfort.nl

Re: What years are service brown?

All these parts are painted in service brown,the lucas control box is the only part with a date 1-44 ,also have three original lucas batteries dated 43/44 and they have traces of brown paint too.







Re: What years are service brown?

Very cool to see Steve! Thanks for posting those pics.

Looks similar to the traces I found all over my bike.

email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

Re: What years are service brown?

Ah it looks like the information about the yellow ochre is wrong then. It was the MV collector guy who owned the Swindon hardware shop back in the 80's who was the main supplier of military paint back then who told me about it. :flushed: Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: What years are service brown?

Well, he knew that it was one of the pigments, Ron and in those pre-internet days, unless we had a pile of magazine back issues, most of what we knew was something that we half remembered being told in a pub !

Re: What years are service brown?

Mike Hoffman I think Ron

email (option): andrew.honychurch@gmail.com

Re: What years are service brown?

Fortunately my M20 is '41 so I can use KGP No3....I did my Triumph 5SW in the brown and have seen it on others as well and I don't really like it myself....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: What years are service brown?

Andrew Honychurch
Mike Hoffman I think Ron
That's him Andrew. I seem to remember he sold his shop and MV collection and moved to, or near his boat in Sussex. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: What years are service brown?

My Ariel W/NG was built in April 1942 according to the factory records. It was found in the 1990's, dismantled, in a coal bunker in Kent.....it was still in the original wartime colour and had not been re-painted.....

The colour was Khaki-Green No.3......seemingly, Ariel must have been using up their stocks of this colour before switching to SCC. No.2 brown......

Re: What years are service brown?

Mike Hoffman was ( is ? ) a lovely chap . I recall staying with him and his wife in the late 80s at their house in Lechlade whilst picking up an engine for my Daimler Armoured Car. I think he moved to France to live on a boat and I fear tragedy truck with the loss of his wife not long after. Everything he restored was genuinely superb. He was a stickler for attention.

email (option): andrew.honychurch@gmail.com

Re: What years are service brown?

I would love to see a photo of the original KG no 3. I am part way through my G3WO restoration and the supplier of the KG no 3 has gone out of business. I have enough to match to and am looking for someone to mix some to finish my restoration. Ah trials and tribulations. Stay safe friends.

email (option): andrew.honychurch@gmail.com

Re: What years are service brown?

Steve Madden
My Ariel W/NG was built in April 1942 according to the factory records. It was found in the 1990's, dismantled, in a coal bunker in Kent.....it was still in the original wartime colour and had not been re-painted.....

The colour was Khaki-Green No.3......seemingly, Ariel must have been using up their stocks of this colour before switching to SCC. No.2 brown......
In my Royal Enfield WD Models Register I have a couple of motorcycles that can give us some more precise information about the date when Enfield started using S.C.C.2 (because their stocks of K.G.3 had run out): frame number # 12828 was despatched on December 1st 1942, and was still painted in khaki. Frame number # 15432 was despatched March 27th 1943, and was originally brown...

Jan

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

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