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Forum picture c5115706

Omg!!!!! This is a photo of my bike, I can’t believe it, is there any more info on the photo please???
Regards Steve

email (option): Johnsonsteve386@gmail.com

Re: Forum picture c5115706

FINALLY!!!! One of us has hit the lottery!!!!

email (option): jamescusteau@yahoo.com

Re: Forum picture c5115706

i just asked about this very scenario 2 days ago, wow i cant imagine how it must feel.....thats awesome!!

email (option): taybrig@shaw.ca

Re: Forum picture c5115706

I make your frame number WM20 82306 from contract S1048 1942/3. Perhaps Henk can confirm from the ledgers. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: Forum picture c5115706

Lucky you! Congratulations with this find.

Some more info about this picture: The location is the Wilhelmina Park in the town of Tilburg, Netherlands. The date is October 27th, 1944, shortly after the liberation of this town, the soldiers in the photo belong to the 15th Scottish Division.
This information comes from the local museum in Tilburg, from an exhibition last year to commemorate the liberation, then 75 years ago.

More info and photos (also the original b/w photo) from the events in 2019 on various sites on the web, for instance here:

https://erfgoedtilburg.nl/agenda/expositie-tilburg-bevrijd/

Re: Forum picture c5115706

Is anyone of us living in/around Tilburg, able to make a picture of the same spot ?

Re: Forum picture c5115706

Maybe Steve should make the pilgrimage? Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: Forum picture c5115706

There you go.....

C5115706

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5652872,5.0779965,3a,75y,325.54h,88.65t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2lqi1T4fdEZ4B4x6JJZm-A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Tilburg, the city where the first Corona victim has been registered yesterday.....

Cheers,

Sven

email (option): snvosselman@gmail.com

Re: Forum picture c5115706

Gosh, I have that photo for years already but only posted it now as I found a Colored version of it. We all would like to find our own bike on a war time photo and it's the first one as far as I know. Pretty cool.

Henk.

C5115706-WM20-82306-October-27-1944-A-dispatch-rider-at-the-WIlhelminapark-Tilburg

email (option): ahum@quicknet.nl

Re: Forum picture c5115706

As a bit of a rivet-counter and generally a miserable old sod, if it were mine I think that I would pass a high-resolution photo of the frame number stampings past maybe Henk and Ian Wright who have a good knowledge of the fonts and the stamping styles used.

Certainly with Nortons, I've come across so many that are clearly non-factory stampings of spare part frames that personally, I'd want to be certain by having some someone with wide experience cast their eyes over it.

Re: Forum picture c5115706

Yes it would indeed be very interesting to see a photo of that frame number.

Henk.

email (option): ahum@quicknet.nl

Re: Forum picture c5115706

Thanks for all the replies
I have been on a high all day, grinning from ear to ear
Even more amazed to have a date and the exact location!
I will try and plan to get her back to Tilburg this October
I am too scared now to check my frame number but will post it here over the weekend...... I am pretty confident........
Cheers lads, Steve

email (option): Johnsonsteve386@gmail.com

Re: Forum picture c5115706

Steve I would have checked my frame number before I got too excited! Fingers crossed, as for years it's been spoken about someone finding an original picture of their bike.....I think you're the first on here? Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: Forum picture c5115706

It's a wonderful photo, particularly in the attribution and I understand from previous threads that it has a post-war rebuild plate confirming the frame number so it should have the 'identity' of this machine...so we have an additional confirmation of the link between the frame number, the rebuild plate and the wartime serial number.

http://pub37.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=3155626639&frmid=16&msgid=1404472&cmd=show

The arm of service serial '87' on the rider's helmet would be on a gloss dark green background(the pre-war service colour) and indicates the HQ of the intermediate infantry brigade. If this does indeed show 15th (Scottish) then that would be 45th Infantry Brigade and the next step is to obtain a copy of their war diary :slightly_smiling_face:

This is the vehicle establishment of an Infantry Brigade HQ...Only four motorcycles and this is one of them.

4 X motorcycle
3 X car 2seater 4 X 2
3 X car 4 seater
6 X car 5cwt 4 X 4 (jeep)
1 X 15cwt GS
1 X 15cwt Water
1 X 15cwt Office
1 X 15cwt personnel
3 X lorry 3ton 4 X 4 GS

The Brigade war diary is unlikely to mention serial numbers but they had a REME LAD attached and if the bike ever had any mechanical problems then they may well have mentioned it....The real research (if you've a mind to) is only just beginning. :grinning:

Re: Forum picture c5115706

Steve,
you are one of the luckiest riders on the forum! I always imagined that my old wheezer took part in Holland's liberation, but there is no way to know.

To own THAT bike and have such a clear image of it in service; Dutch flags flying.... WOW! I would give anything to have that.

email (option): cas.vanderwoude@gmail.com

Re: Forum picture c5115706

Sven
There you go.....



https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5652872,5.0779965,3a,75y,325.54h,88.65t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2lqi1T4fdEZ4B4x6JJZm-A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Tilburg, the city where the first Corona victim has been registered yesterday.....

Cheers,

Sven
Well done, Sven ! Seems like nothing has changed over the years.

Re: Forum picture c5115706

This is pretty exciting, I would be thrilled if a wartime picture of one of my bikes turned up.

Yes the frame number does need to be looked at just to be sure and obviously the bike was rebuilt after this picture was taken which may lead you to some difficult decisions with any out of period parts fitted.

I look forward to seeing a picture of it returning to Tilburg.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Re: Forum picture c5115706




email (option): Johnsonsteve386@gmail.com

Re: Forum picture c5115706

Hope these photos help, fingers crossed
Steve

email (option): Johnsonsteve386@gmail.com

Re: Forum picture c5115706

The number looks good, does it feel flat to the touch underneath it where a previous number could have been removed?

And does it have the braised on lug for the rear prop stand where you have the spring clip?

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Re: Forum picture c5115706

No criticism! Just scrutiny. Was the short field stand lug still being fitted in 42/43? Or has the rear frame been replaced? Ron

3-EA90663-DF3-A-4-BC6-A1-DC-2-D715060-C7-A1-2

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: Forum picture c5115706



Hi, frame feels nice and round, no flat areas
Sorry but I don’t know which brazed lug you mean, I hope these photos help

email (option): Johnsonsteve386@gmail.com

Re: Forum picture c5115706

Steve the lug that your field stand spring clip is bolted to, (should be bolted down by the wheel spindle) Is the lug that the PRE-PANNIER short field stand would have been bolted to. Ron

C4347367

Horn-new-003

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: Forum picture c5115706

The number looks from factory to me, chances or big that the 3 is indeed a 3 but I would scratch it out to confirm, it could be a 9 or even a 0.

Regarding the rearframe: I have a complete frame with a slightly later number, about 400 later, it is in factory brown paint and it still has the 'short fieldstand lug'. So think that almost surely confirms that it was still there.

BR Michiel

Re: Forum picture c5115706

I'm not a BSA chap, but the stamping certainly looks 'factory' to me, based on those that I've looked at...Nice, clear and undamaged too. As per Michiel's suggestion, I would double check on the '3' as well, but the 1953 rebuild plate certainly carries the correct number and that would have been noted before it was painted yellow.

One of the interesting things about this is that the Key Card entry shows that it was sold off in the UK so it certainly can't be assumed that UK bikes never saw overeseas wartime service. Many must have been brought back to the UK for reserve storage.

Re: Forum picture c5115706

Well done ! Now get it painted the correct brown !!! Ha Ha....

email (option): richardpurkiss@hotmail.com

Re: Forum picture c5115706

Yes, brown please !! :relaxed: also a nice opportunity to get the rearstand back to normal as this position will ruin it soon.

Re: Forum picture c5115706

Morning all, I see now my spring clip is in the wrong position, does anyone have a close up picture of it in correct place
And why would it ruin the stand if I leave it as is?
I have a 1941 ammo tin that is a light brown, is this the colour it should be? Is there a name for it?
Thanks guys Steve

email (option): Johnsonsteve386@gmail.com

Re: Forum picture c5115706

This drawing shows it quite well, you will need the thick slightly bent plate.

Rob

BSA-Pannier-Fitting-instruction-03

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Re: Forum picture c5115706

I don't think anyone said it would ruin the stand, the comments about your early prop stand lug were more to do with the chances of your rear frame being the one pictured in Holland in 1944, because the lug was almost definitely discontinued before 1943 when your machine left the factory.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Re: Forum picture c5115706

Steve it was the overly forward position of you rear stand that Michiel W is referring to. As when the pivots wear it can cause the frame to brake. The paint would have been SCC2 Service Brown paint code BS499. Ron

IMG-3938
M20-033

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: Forum picture c5115706

Thanks, I get it with the stands now, is there an ideal angle for the rear stand?
I notice in the photo too, none of the bolts seem plated, everything is sprayed over,do you think it came out of the factory like it.
The blackout lamp looks darker, maybe a satin black?

email (option): Johnsonsteve386@gmail.com

Re: Forum picture c5115706

Steve,

Blackout masks were satin black from the factory, but sometimes painted over, and/or gas detection paint applied.

Congrats with the first bike to be identified from a period picture!!! as a freebie here the scan of the Key Card.

if there's more bikes like this one identified, I will give out (a scan of) the card for free to the person, otherwise it's still 20 euro's for a high res. scan.

Cheers,

Lex

email (option): welbike@welbi**.net

Re: Forum picture c5115706

Its strange that they made the rear frame half with the side stand lug and the pillion footrest lugs,when they fitted the longer clamp on type side stand and pillion footrest lugs you would have thought the brazed on side stand lug would have been deleted.

Re: Forum picture c5115706

As a spare part, they would still have had to retain 100% interchangeabilty for use on earlier machines. The alternative was making and stocking two types. Reducing the parts inventory was a major concern.

Re: Forum picture c5115706

Sorry Steve, I was a bit short on the rearstand, thanks Ron for explaining.

I am very keen the correct position of the rearstand as the forces on the pivots increase very much when over-angled.

How about the '3' in the number is it definitely one? The 3 on my framenumber is not very clear either but it seems to be the more hooked version like on your overhaul plate. But I can imagine BSA used various styles.

And the enginenumber? still matching ???:slightly_smiling_face: ?

Re: Forum picture c5115706

Gents,

I understand the exitement for the BSA owners. Its however not the first picture/bike match to be found!

For Norton WD16H I found a wartime picture in 2010 of C4391955 and added a "then, intermediate and now picture" to the website https://www.wdnorton.nl/restoration.htm page

Certainly nice to have some history of a still existing bike.

Cheers,

Rob

email (option): wd16h@telfort.nl

Re: Forum picture c5115706

Thanks for the key card lex and all the other advice guys
I have been looking at the 15th Scottish division history and at 3pm on the 27th Oct the 44th lowland infantry brigades liberated tilberg, celebrations continuing into the next day.
I am struggling to relate that to the arm of service 87 on the dr helmet, so any help there is appreciated
Here are some more pictures of the 3, I am afraid it is still vague even with the paint off, steve


email (option): Johnsonsteve386@gmail.com

Re: Forum picture c5115706

Steve, There's no doubt that's a '3' :slightly_smiling_face:

My understanding is that 44th Infantry Brigade were senior and their Bde. HQ would have displayed '81' on red...but the whole purpose of the Brigade HQ motorcycles was communication and liaison...with both higher and lower formations and of course with the other brigade HQs in the division.

That at some point a motorcyclist from 44 Bde HQ should have arrived at that of 45th seems quite likely.

Re: Forum picture c5115706

Whoah this is so awesome was reading about the on Rob's website the other day must be an amazing feeling to find something it's very addictive looking for pictures that's for sure. Congrats :)

email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

Re: Forum picture c5115706

Yes, 3 for sure! and still the surface texture of the lug casting, so no meshing or restamp. Cheers! Michiel

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