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Re: spraying and headlight

Hi Ian an Horror.

Thanks for the reply that's a huge help:)
I'll check those spray guns out I was considering getting something half decent but know nothing about nozzle sizes etc so just starting to read up.

Thanks for the tip on the headlight mate I was looking at the genuine du42 shells second hand.

I'll make sure to keep the 8" headlight tucked away if I take it off. Hoping to get a second wd 16h once mines up an running and my 675 race bike and rd250c are sold. My dads 60th this year an we do everything together so should hate to leave him out on his gsxr. So hopefully once I've done mine I can suprise him with the use of another. So any good bits of mine I'm gonna keep for now :) well that's the plan anyway.

Just got the magneto off before so on the hunt for who to use now.

email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

Re: Normand / Don Eife 2020

Thank you for the Quick reply Ron , much appreciated , could you add me in to you mail loop for the Normandy and any events you here about or are attending
My self and Fraser would love to join the Don Eife event , are the any confirmed dates yat !, just looking ahead 😉
Thank you Ron
Regards
John
Bangsaj@yahoo.co.uk
Tel:07707089137

email (option): Bangsaj@yahoo.co.uk

Re: Normand / Don Eife 2020

You've missed the boat there John. The Don Fife memorial run (60 odd bikes) was last June (75th anniversary). We'll be in Normandy again this June at our usual campsite, near Port-en-Bessin. We might well have a small group ride to Don Fife again.

Email me off forum for more details. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: Rescuing my WD 16H

Just a quick one guys, was considering using aerosols, but started looking at HVLP electric spray guns, just wondering has anyone used one before :) If so any preference for brand or for nozzle sizes?

Gonna check the clutch out later and look at getting the magneto removed ready to source the right one. Are there any codes on the correct Dynamo's?

email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

Re: Rescuing my WD 16H

Personally I consider aerosols to be a waste of time and money...Regarding spray guns there are some cheap guns that work OK and I've had them in the past but I found a quality gun to be a far better proposition that is easier to use and achieves a better result...

I use a Devilbiss gun and initially I just bought their 'economy' model figuring that they wouldn't supply a gun with poor performance even at the lower end of the range...

That turned out to be the case and I've been using the same gun for years now without problems...My cheap gun was demoted to primer and undercoat duties...

Spraying gives you far better coverage and the option to choose the paints/primers/undercoats and lacquers you want to suit the job..Once you have all the equipment you need to do a spray job you won't regret it...

I'm completely self taught but have now got pretty reasonable results...Here's my Harley Ferguson after I completely resprayed it..Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: spraying and headlight


Had another workshop day today

Hope you all enjoy the short video.
Currently hunting for a full set of 1" handlebar clamps.

Sorted on the magdyno front now,

Got a throttle grip on the way :) an decided on the paint colour.
Thanks to everyone that's been helping all very much appreciated


email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

Re: spraying and headlight

Having a bit of a problem posting videos of my phone so hopefully this works :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtJhqfWfW0w&app=desktop

email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

Re: spraying and headlight

Few images of the progress parts wise :) Thanks to Everyone that's been helping with advice and selling bits to me huge help.

WD repro battery box and the repro wd 1" bars




email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

Re: spraying and headlight

Posting pictures on here isn't easy. There was a post on how to do it pinned at the top of the list, which was very handy, it looks like you'll have to search for it to see how to do it.

email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk

Re: spraying and headlight

Thanks mate those last 3 images should be loading totally screwed up with the video's but least the last link is working :grinning:

Made a bit more progress on her today,

The exhaust came an I gave it a test fit all seems ok just working out the clamps thanks to Ron for some pictures of how they should be.

An cheers to everyone that's been helping out with bits and endless advice. She's really starting to come together now.

Should have my new magneto in 20 or so days! Can't wait to get that fitted.

One of the lads advised me that the headlight brackets are different between the du142 and the du42' anyone know the way to tell the difference.

Got one 1" clamp on the way a lead on another top an bottom if the guy comes back to me :) decomp lever, advance lever, choke lever as well an canvas grips an a throttle grip assy!

Next things to sus out are fuel lines, bar end caps, cables, tyres, (got old firestone one's at the mo) horn button an dipper switch do they have a kill switch on them? (looking at an old picture)

Exhaust paint, field stand and a skid plate. Then looks like she's mostly there! Really excited at how fast she's coming together.

Going to order my paint tomorrow for the bike an get going at that. Then I've gotta sus out the best way to paint the numbers on the tank.

Just wanna thank you all for all the advice so far very much appreciated.

email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

Re: spraying and headlight

I have to say I am not aware of any difference in the Norton headlamp brackets - the design of them allows adjustment both to the forks and also to the lamp itself and I have fitted both types of lamp with the same brackets.

I would be interested in a definitive answer on this though.

The biggest problem that Nortons appear to have had with their headlamp brackets was the clip that sits on top of the bracket and which bolts to the headlamp shell if allowed to be loose will shear the top of the bracket and I have a couple of Norton headlamp brackets which have suffered this fate.

Re: spraying and headlight

It's quite difficult to be specific here...The brackets only appeared in the spare parts list in 1942, and this would have been around the time that the DU42 was introduced.

The pre-war civilian Spare Parts Lists don't include the brackets either, probably because Norton continued to show lighting as an extra. Oddly though, they don't appear in the WD LV7 lists either, although all the other headlamp parts do.

Re: spraying and headlight

I use Tony Pearson for my low tack stencils https://www.axholmesigns.co.uk/
And small rattle cans of 'Plastikote' enamel
Classic Transfers for water-slides https://classictransfers.co.uk/product/norton-6330-110x35mm/
This is by far the best VHT paint I've ever used, but they only sell rattle cans in boxes of six https://www.firwood.co.uk/categories/heat-resistant-paints/greater-than-250-c/product/firwood-75-high-temperature-resisting-paint/75~75-6631-D
Ron

Big-4-481


upload photos to internet

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: spraying and headlight

That's brilliant thanks lads! Great info as always.

I'll get the transfers and stencils an paint ordered tomorrow just need it to warm up a notch outside for painting!! :) I'll look at getting the du42 bowl as well an give it a whirl with the stems that are on her an I'll bear that in mind about them being tight really good tip.

She's gonna be looking a different bike over the next week or so.

email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

Re: spraying and headlight

Bit of great progress today my throttle grip came yay! An the canvas grips.

Got the other 1" clamp on the way as well so I'm gonna be able to fit the bars! 

Hoping the weather gets a bit better towards the end of next week so I can start to paint gonna order it on Monday in the hope's the weather picks up over the next week or so.

Next jobs I'm gonna tackle are taking the timing cover off to double check the oil pump seal etc out. 

Need to research where to get a fuel line from an get some control cables ordered. 

Last bits to find now are, 1" bar end plugs, clutch an brake lever assy, horn button did they have a dip control for the headlight? Sort the wiring.

Du42 an blackout.

Eventually a field stand, bash plate, carrier an racks. 

One thing I was wondering on the pic I've seen of one 500 or so numbers from my engine contract. It had the Norton logo and the c next to that an the contract number underneath. 

When did they bring in the divisional markings in? So say for 8th army the crusader logo and the 7th armoured (believe some ra were attached to them) on each on each side or only one type or none at all :) 

Cheers, 

Tom


email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

Re: spraying and headlight

Few bits came today yay! An my mag dyno is done picking that up tomorrow Gonna order some of my paint shortly then I'm gonna get on with researching cables an fuel lines out. Exciting stuff!!

Need to sort complete 1" clutch an brake levers out, end caps for the bars, du42 headlight shell an blackout, exhaust clamps, correct amp meter, an wiring, feels really close now though!

What timing is everyone aiming for on 97 ron fuel?

Been spending ages hunting for pics or raf sidecar combos like mine would have been and of 8th army bikes around 42/43 to tie in with my engine an researching the layout of the tank numbers. Pretty sure I know how I'm doing her now.


Gonna order the scc.2 in a bit really itching to see her in wd colours.

email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

Re: spraying and headlight

I still time all mine by the book. Although I will accept a little bit of discrepancy on the 'ADVANCE' side. As I'm sure the modern fuel will allow for it and we have the advantage of being able to retard it at the lever. I never accept a retarded ignition. I've heard some guys say that you can advance the timing by several degrees with modern fuel.....But I don't know if that's proven? Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: spraying and headlight

Rik, Keith,

I am fairly confident that the headlight brackets never changed over a long time.
Despite being first mention on C10217 and later contracts only.
Norton appears to have been using unchanged (modular) parts over long periods and across the different models (civil and military) and as both 8" and 6" headlamps fit on the same brackets there would not have been any reason to introduce a new part which could lead to ordering mistakes and doubling of stocks.
The spare parts list are extremely incomplete wrt the electical system information in general. VAOS lists made up for that, but not completely as Rik mentions.
Could indeed have been the inclination of regarding electrical system as an accessory for the civilian users.
Being standard application for military bikes it would have been more logical to add them to the military spares lists or VAOS.

Cheers,

Rob

www.wdnorton.nl




email (option): wd16h@telfort.nl

Re: spraying and headlight

Cheers Ron an Rob superb info as always, I'm running my 650ss on standard timing an that's been great for thousands of miles these singles are all new to me though. So on a learning curve very much enjoying it though!

Going to pick my magdyno up tomorrow so that'l be exciting an gonna order my paint in the morning!

Should be looking more like she should by next week! Hoping for a few dry and low humidity days.

All the video's so far.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLz4rqyNk3Ie-Uku_F-qJq8T3FB8jUcOL2

email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

Re: spraying and headlight

Made some progress today working on a set of very used Wd Norton 16h 1" clamps. One was much better than the other an I've got another top an bottom on the way but managed to save all of these to which I didn't expect !

Paint should be here next week so gonna start working on getting all the paint removed from the wd16h over the next couple of days ready for priming an her first lick of paint back in wd colours!

Next things I've got to sort once my Maria Costello MBE Daytona race bike is sold is, cables, 1" clutch an brake levers inc perches,
Bar end caps oh an fuel line.
Du42 headlight an blackout (did the original blackouts have any stamping on them?)

After that tyres :) really getting close now.
YouTube video
https://youtu.be/-T9kMtA9DT4

email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

Re: spraying and headlight

I've done a bit of experimenting with ignition timing on my WD16H, it seems to me that 7/16" BTDC is the minimum advance Norton could get away with, probably because it ran on low octane fuel. I installed a vernier mag sprocket and set it to 7/16", went on a run for the weekend. Riding 2 up as I usually am on that bike, it felt a bit retarded and over a long days riding it lost power and I had to stop. Wend had to get a lift and the bike was ok solo. I checked the timing and it was out by the thickness of a pencil line, so 7/16" is as retarded as it can go. I've tried other timings and the best is 1/2" BTDC and the bike flies 2 up and up hills.

email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk

Re: spraying and headlight

I compiled a list of all the published ignition timing figures that I could find in the various publications. They are not only confusing and conflicting, but where timing is also given in degrees, they don't even seem to be able to agree on the relationship...I'm not aware that 16H con-rod length ever changed.

Norton 16H Ignition Timing
Haycraft (1938)
16H 1934 – 1937 – 7/32” (25°)
16H 1938 – 1939 ‘Unchanged’

Main-Smith
16H 1928 – 1937 – 7/32”
16H 1938 – 1954 – 7/16”

Franks (1948)
16H 1932 – 3/8”
(No mention of changes)

Norton Instruction Manual (1937 – 1941)
7/32” (25°)

WD Workshop Instruction Manual (undated – 1942?)
WD16H - 3/8” (35°)

WD M&I Manual (undated – 1943 ?)
WD16H - 7/16” (35°)

These figures do though show that the greatest advance given (7/16") was actually for the later WD models perhaps because fuel quality actually improved...I can't understand the BMS Norton book listing with a change from 7/32" to 7/16" for 1938 as although cylinder changed, head and con-rod didn't.

I set mine to the 7/16" figure and even on that, when pulling the lever right back, I can feel it go past peak crispness...it flattens off. I have tried the idea of setting at TDC on full retard, but that gave quite an over-advanced feel.

Re: spraying and headlight

I think we can see from the published figures that the ignition point varied considerably for the period this site is interested in, this might indicate that data is itself is variable or perhaps is doesn't matter much. Without wishing to put on my previous professional hat, the point of optimium ignition constantly varies depending on a bag full of variables such as air temp/pressure/humidity, engine load/temp/condition/operational cycle, fuel chacteristics (a subject in its self)and to say nothing of engine design of which a sidevalve is proberly the 2nd worst.
To get the best efficieny from a spark ignition engine the spark (point of ignition, not necesarily the spark point) must constantly vary but be as advanced as possible and only retard if detonation is sensed. This is exactly what modern electronic ignition systems do, the point of ignition dances back and forth as close as possible to detonation and it does this hundreds of times a second, a bit like you at the wave line on a beach and retreating to avoid wet shoes but a lot quicker.
Now clearly with a little lever on the handle bars we can't do that so the maker had to pick a advance figure that gave the the best compromise for performace without incurring warantty claims. So where does this leave the 21st century owner of a mid 20th centry bike? I'm not sure, my feeling that with modern fuels it is safe to over advance a bit and test, you can always retard the lever if the bike complains
Coments invited.
Richard

Re: spraying and headlight

That's an interesting list, thanks Rik. As you've said, a 16H has always been 79x100 so how these figures vary so much is odd, I cannot even imagine the engine would run properly at 7/32". I could feel my bike being sluggish and flat at just under 7/16" to the point it couldn't pull any more.

email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk

Re: spraying and headlight

Thanks guys all the info is a massive help it's brilliant learning about all this from all of you that are imparting your knowledge. I'm a details sorta person so like to learn as much as I can :)

Made some progress for an hour today got 90% of the paint from the petrol tank all seems solid an no filler which is good layers of different colour primer and underneath was some traces of what looks like scc.2 brown or some brown paint around some of the seams camera didnt capture it to well as there was a bit of paint stripper on it at that point :) on the petrol tank, footrests.

Speaking of scc2 my red oxide an scc2 paint should be here early next week so looking forward to that.

An some decent patches of brown on the toolbox although my darn phone was flat at that point.

The tanks looking in much better condition than I initially thought with the majority of the paint of the sides an the top gonna start on the bottom of it in the morning.

Looking forward to stripping the old paint of the frame and primary ready for prime an paint next week an seeing what it reveals gonna do everything then deal with the wheels last.

Took the outer primary cover off an was nice to see that all in decent condition. Gonna have a go at slackening the crank nut tomorrow an clutch basket so I can paint the back of the primary as well.





email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

Re: spraying and headlight

Working on the bike I feel a bit like an archeologist uncovering history!
Found remnants of the original paint under all the layers an layers of paint.
Scc.2 Brown with the red oxide underneath it thanks to the great advice of you all. I've actually ordered this colour already got scc2 an red oxide which arrived today nice to confirm it!

Also spotted the return oil line had a split in it on the rubber right near one of the clamps!! That could have been very nasty so gotta get some new rubber hose an repair that to.

Got the tank, oil tank, tool box an outer primary ready for prime now :) all seems in great condition



email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

Re: spraying and headlight

Big day today In ww2 Norton land! Frame, forks, Oil tank, fuel tank footrests, primary outer, frame plates, tool box, rear mudguard all ready for red oxide priming all in amazing condition as well.

email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

Re: spraying and headlight

Latest progress on my Ww2 Norton 16H raf/army bike ready for red oxide now on quite a bit of her. Soon be going back together. Few bits left to get soon. Stuck all the videos in a playlist as well on my Channel. 

Keeping an eye out for original raf sidecar 16h pics as well :)

https://youtu.be/RJjSE75-4kk

email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

Re: spraying and headlight

Tom you would need a Swallow Model 8 on a period Norton chassis....Good luck!

download

Another skilled forum member has made a replica ash frame. Maybe he'll chip in if he still has it? Ron

sidecar-1-2

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: spraying and headlight

Takes some skill to make something like that Ron that's for sure! Always appreciate crafts an trades.

Thanks for showing me the picture.

Really enjoy looking at all the stuff you guys share with me never stop learning.

Can't get enough of looking at period wd pics as well :) spent many a late night trawling pictures.

email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

Re: spraying and headlight

Tom I believe you will need a Norton Model G sidecar chassis - I have one BUT not for sale. It uses a standard 16H wheel hub and the same body springs and sidecar stays as were used on the SWD Big 4 Chassis. However, the Model G Chassis did not have the friction dampers that were used on the Big 4 chassis. On the Model G chassis the loop tube over the top of the mudguard was integral with the chassis as opposed to the SWD Big 4 Chassis were this was bolted to the chassis.

Trust this helps.

Re: spraying and headlight

Hi Keith yep that's really interesting :) wasn't aware of those details enjoying learning about them as before now I had 0 interest in sidecar stuff.

Interesting digging through all the period raf pictures I can find Ron an Rik have shown me a fair few which were cool + some I've seen on the IWM.

Really enjoy learning the history and looking at all the details. Rik showed me an amazing link to a picture of a bike in North Africa from the same contract as my engine was actually only within 500 census numbers or so of mine which was really handy for getting the layout of the numbers right with some great advice from Lex on the font as well.

Know I'm covering the same ground that all you have done with looking at pics but it's still super interesting. Every day is a learning day that's for sure! That's probably gonna be on my headstone haha! A motto I tend to live by.

I guess that's the excitement you never know what's round the corner find wise. Interesting seeing how the raf layed the tanks out as well and any other details on the bike. Loved looking at the pictures of the tank you found on Robs site.

My air an adv controls came today to say I'm over the moon with them is an understatement. Last thing I need for the 1" bars are the clutch an brake lever assys, horn buttons an bar end caps.

My race bike should be getting picked up later this week so I can start hunting for the last bits.

Main bits left to find now are lever assys for the 1" bars, end caps, horn button, convoy light, ( weighing up whether to keep the one in the plate or mount the separate type)

Du42 headlight an blackout.
Then its cables an fuel lines to sort.
An a set of tyres.
Need to fix the oil lines as well with new rubber.
An strip the carb then time her up.

Sure there will be a few more bits along the way :)



It's finally starting to warm up now so hoping to get some red oxide primer onto the chassis ready for a dry day to spray it.

Can't wait to see her in scc.2 brown.

email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

Re: spraying and headlight

Made some more progress today ended up removing some brush on primer I'd tried an then ordering some Simoniz Red Oxide Primer which seems really nice to use. 
Got quite a bit done today all the chassis etc, 
Been stripping a few more smaller components an dads been helping me to flat the brush on primer on the tank almost back to the metal ready for the spray on stuff.
Really exciting to think the first nice day we get where next door arnt causing dust clouds I'll be getting to see the scc.2 on a few bits!
Got one nos bar end 1" plug so just gotta find the other one now.

https://youtu.be/BBHjEVM2cFw

email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

Huge Progress

Today was a massively productive day got all the painting done on the chassis and the tool box and a few other bits including the tank. Shame of it is the tank got a tiny bit of orange peel on it so considering leaving it for a week or so then trying some 2500 grit wet and dry? Anyone ever done that with Matt paint it's got 15% or so eggshell in it. 

Colour is SCC.2 Brown (Farrant brown from war paint)

Hope everyone enjoys the video about 8 mins long this one.


Click the link for the video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t629eaB-bk4

email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

Re: Huge Progress

Today was a cool day :) ended up checking the tank out an really happy with how it dried.

Found a cool thing on the seat as well which I didn't notice while taking the cover off.

https://youtu.be/O6r4kY5MZDg

email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

Re: Huge Progress

Another big day on the ww2 Norton
All that's left to paint is the wheels, chain guard, an front mudguard stays to do from scratch.

Gotta paint the scc.2 onto the rear mudguard :) an then shes done paint wise !! Oh an paint the tank census number an fit the Norton decals.

Then I can get back on with hunting for a fuel line, control cables, du42 an blackout an the remaining 1" bar end bung an clutch an brake levers and start setting the engine up so excited about that. Oh yep need to paint the exhaust as well thinking black. Not sure if they changed it between years? 

Trying to weigh up a convoy light v rear number plate holder with built in light setup.

Am I right in saying part of the footrests should be painted silver?

So happy with how much progress I've made.

https://youtu.be/0nfS2WD5y60

email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

Re: Huge Progress

I think the footrest hangers with the tubular steel footrests were cadmium plated - not painted silver. The tubular steel footrests I think were just painted.

Re: Huge Progress

I'm pretty sure that I've seen the footrest hangers dull-chromed, nickelled or cad plated...rests themselves just in service colour.

Re: Huge Progress

Thanks Guys, Was just looking at the list on Rob's website on original wd16h specs for the early contract, looks like they were a dull chrome like you say :)

Might just leave them painted for now in the brown then look at dull chroming at some point.

https://www.wdnorton.nl/Original_WD16H_Specifications.html

Gonna try get some exhaust paint shortly while the shops are still open. Need to order some more ssc.2 as well got enough to be going on with for now though which is good.

email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

Re: Huge Progress

Can we start a new thread now?....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: Huge Progress

Why not keep it going Ian??

Exhaust on most WD bikes were matt chrome or later cad plated, except Thriumph, they were black from the factory, rebuilts during the war were also done in black a lot of times.

Check the period pictures!

Cheers,

Lex

email (option): welbike@welbi**.net

Re: Huge Progress

Thanks Lex :) Good point I'll have a look at some more old pictures again.

Guess on slower internet connections it could be lagging with the amount of pictures with that in mind here's a link to a new thread.

http://pub37.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=3155626639&frmid=16&msgid=1426127&cmd=show

email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

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