Questions? Looking for parts? Parts for sale? or just for a chat,

The WD Motorcycle forum

WD Motorcycle forum
Start a New Topic 
Author
Comment
The Dreaded M20 Third Gear, or not?

Having rebuilt the box on the bench, shims all in, new bearings etc, I managed all four gears. Having put the box in the frame, together with clutch, primary drive, rear chain (neither too tight) an issue appears with third. Having tried every adjustment on the linkage arm by half a turn each time, I get 1st to 4th, but third only engages when you line male/female of the selector and gear. Turning the wheel reveals the faces of the two bind but don't engage. The two actually rub against each other and the selector appears to bounce off. If you ease the selector arm towards the gear with finger pressure (whilst multi tasking!) it pops in. Coming down the box from fourth to third it is more successful. There is no oil in the box just assembly coating. There are no burs, deformation of the selector or gear faces.

Therefore, smooth as it gets from 1st neutral, second, may be or may be not on third, (better result coming up from 4th) and 4th no issues. It appears the selector needs to travel further towards the outer cover. The gear change mechanism is great with good springs, and there is no play on the linkage.

I hope you understand this as I can't upload pics for some reason. Any suggestions please? Thanks Dave.

email (option): dwmcrofts@btinternet.com

Re: The Dreaded M20 Third Gear, or not?

Did you set the gearbox initially using the adjustable tie rod?...After initial assembly the selector dog should sit centrally, or as near as possible, between the dogs on the faces of 1st. and 2nd. gears (on the layshaft...)...

Also, when you shimmed the mainshaft did you check the splines on the sprocket end of the shaft for wear on the ends?...If these are worn the shaft will be too far over towards the sprocket even when correctly shimmed for end float..That moves the gear dogs nearer to the selector dog...

Finally did you check the selector shaft for end float and the selector fork tracks and pins for wear...?...The tracks have a tendency to wear badly at the apex of the track where a change of direction occurs if the box has been run incorrectly set up in the past...Clearance between the pins and the track should be minimal. Likewise with he clearance between the selector fork arms and the groove in the selector dog...

With these boxes it's all about setting and crucially, 'lost' movement.....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: The Dreaded M20 Third Gear, or not?

Thank you Ian, some great detail there. I've now took it down and it looks like wear on the selector on the point of change of direction. There is about 25 thou there. The other seems fine, by that minimal play. There is also minimal wear of the selector forks in the dog.

If you lined up 4th and 3rs dogs, it would go in ok. But if you turned the box it refused to engage. As I mentioned, just a light touch on the selector and it engaged. Could be down to play as you mentioned. Minimal adjustment of the tie rod got the dogs fully home but still not engaging when turn from 2nd to third or 4th to third. I assembled the box in fourth and adjusted the tie rod as the setting was lost. The original tie rod was bent by 1/16".

Interesting about wear on the end of the main shaft. I'll take some pics and try and load them. At the same time I'm going through it all again, and report back. Happy days but better now than later?

email (option): dwmcrofts@btinternet.com

Re: The Dreaded M20 Third Gear, or not?

If the main shaft splines are worn burring and overheating discolouration are the clues...Likewise with the selector fork arms and the grooves they run in...These parts will also frequently show signs of galling or scuffing of the surfaces....They should have a smooth surface with a good fit between the arm and the groove...

Bear in mind these gearboxes need the inertia of movement to work correctly so statically on the bench you may need to manually align the dogs before they will engage correctly...Statically, once the dogs are aligned, you should have a smooth gear change with no real resistance to movement...
I usually check them with the adjustable arm disconnected, using a small spanner on the square end of the shaft that the arm connects to...This gives a more direct 'feel' to assess how things are moving...

There are two tooth forms for the gear dog teeth and selector dog teeth. The change was made to improve selection and the later type can be identified by the slight angles on the top faces of the dog teeth...Likewise there are two types of selector forks..The width of the cam track was increased and the diameter of the heads of the pins was also increased to match. This resulted in larger radii at the points where the tracks change direction, smoothing out the action...All points to consider.. Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: The Dreaded M20 Third Gear, or not?

David Crofts
Thank you Ian, some great detail there. I've now took it down and it looks like wear on the selector on the point of change of direction. There is about 25 thou there. The other seems fine, by that minimal play. There is also minimal wear of the selector forks in the dog.

If you lined up 4th and 3rs dogs, it would go in ok. But if you turned the box it refused to engage. As I mentioned, just a light touch on the selector and it engaged. Could be down to play as you mentioned. Minimal adjustment of the tie rod got the dogs fully home but still not engaging when turn from 2nd to third or 4th to third. I assembled the box in fourth and adjusted the tie rod as the setting was lost. The original tie rod was bent by 1/16".

Interesting about wear on the end of the main shaft. I'll take some pics and try and load them. At the same time I'm going through it all again, and report back. Happy days but better now than later?
David,
There are constant mesh gearboxes so what ypu are describing is correct operation for them.
The procedure for changing gear is the press ( or elevate ) the lever with gentle pressure till the dogs select.
After that you maintain the lever in whatever position it is in till the clutch is fully engaged then allow the pedal to return to the neutral position.
By modern standards they are very slow boxes.

After a while you get to feel when the engine & road speed is in sync enough fr the gears to select smoothly & Properly,

email (option): bsansw1@tpg.com.au

Re: The Dreaded M20 Third Gear, or not?

They are certainly slow boxes and will miss gears if 'rushed'...However, although the gears are constant mesh the selector dogs etc. are not, so the face teeth on the sides of the gears and the selector dogs should certainly not be contacting each other..

The selector dogs are either fully engaged if the box has a gear selected or should sit more or less centrally between the respective gears with a gap on either side when the box is in neutral..Ian.

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: The Dreaded M20 Third Gear, or not?

On my M21, no amount of shimming it perfectly or adjusting the rod would allow it to shift properly in to 4th gear and sometimes 3rd. This happened even with replacing many of the parts with new items. I found the only way to get it to shift correctly was to get rid of most of the shims and let all the clearances be on the loose side.

The gearbox had never been apart before I got the bike and a number of parts were worn out do to the shifting forks having a side load when in gear as they could not move to the side enough to allow the dogs to fully engage. The selector forks and dogs were blue and melted.

Also, I have seen a number of gearboxes assembled with out the paper gaskets and this also causes clearance problems.

My M21 now shifts perfectly although it is in theory assembled wrong.

Re: The Dreaded M20 Third Gear, or not?

Years ago I was advised by a long established local bike dealer not to make the bushes and shimming too tight when overhauling gearboxes...However, I like to stay within the laid down tolerances so I machine/ream the bushes so they are on the mid to upper tolerance figure...That always works OK...

Regarding the shimming I usually go for .005"-.010" end float on all three shafts...If I experience a problem when operating the box on the bench I'll seek to identify the cause and rectify it...
As noted in a previous post with the tie rod removed and a spanner applied to the square on the shaft it is much easier to operate the box slowly through each gear and to assess the 'action' of the selectors etc.(after lining up the dogs and gears if reqd.)
There should be no resistance to movement...Tightness caused by insufficient space for the selector dogs to move through their full range when engaging each gear (causing the selector dog to 'bottom out' in the gear dogs and put a side load on the selector fork) and/or tightness in the selector fork cam track, particularly where it changes direction show something is assembled wrongly....
When shimming the shafts I shim each shaft individually in the cases before fitting the entire cluster..Don't forget to use a thin paper inner cover gasket during this process to ensure the correct end result...

When I did this work for a living I could count the times I was asked for gearbox components on one hand...It seems either no one rebuilt their gearboxes or they had an aversion to buying replacement parts...
Selector dogs that have worn grooves or badly worn teeth, selector arms that are worn on the sides of the fork arms or have worn cam tracks should be replaced. Likewise when either component shows signs of galling of the surface.. As noted previously, particular attention should be paid to the main shaft spline at the sprocket end...If these are badly worn the main shaft will be out of position even when correctly shimmed...

There's no doubt that the M20 box can be a difficult one to get working nicely, particularly as it is not designed to function correctly when being tested statically...Despite building scores of them I've had my share of failures but I've found attention to detail throughout the rather convoluted gear change mechanism is the key...Incorrect positioning of the components due to wear or incorrect assembly, lost movement due to wear or incorrect shimming and incorrect initial setting of the box are the usual culprits when problems are encountered..Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: The Dreaded M20 Third Gear, or not?

"As noted previously, particular attention should be paid to the main shaft spline at the sprocket end...If these are badly worn the main shaft will be out of position even when correctly shimmed"

Ian could you clarify the above statement please? Do you mean the sprocket splines? or inside the box?

I've had a complete spare WD box under the bench for some years with the intention of stripping it for inspection one day! Some years ago when I rebuilt the box for my special, some gaskets arrived from somewhere(?) in a fairly thick blue cardboard material. Then when I ordered some parts from Les, he told me that he had some original paper gaskets that are just 7 thou thick, which he sent me. If I had used the cardboard gaskets, I would have had to alter all the shims which were otherwise within limits. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: The Dreaded M20 Third Gear, or not?

Hi Ron...It's the spline machined onto the main shaft inside the box that the selector dog slides along...The thicker gaskets you describe come from the main UK gasket manufacturer who, bizarrely, also make the thinner ones. It may be they felt the thicker material would provide a better seal, however, if they are fitted it just requires more shimming to get everything right...With the modern sealants the thin gaskets should be quite adequate...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: The Dreaded M20 Third Gear, or not?

Thanks Ian. I'll take a look at it one day......Or bring it down and watch you do it:smile: Ron
M20-039

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: The Dreaded M20 Third Gear, or not?

Your already fully trained Ron...As the photo from your visit proves...:laughing: ....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: The Dreaded M20 Third Gear, or not?

Hi Ian, Your posts are amazing and has learned me awful lot more of M20's, but really can't follow you on the mainshaft endplay subject.

You keep emphasizing the importance of possible wear on the end of the splines of the mainshaft but in my view it is of no importance at all. The mainshaft and the sleevegear should not be able to touch each other axially as the mainshaft is pulled up to the small bearing. No endplay on the mainshaft so no contact...

Also the end-faces of the splines don't look to be designed to take any force, a very small and splined surface.

In the SA / Norton boxes there is a thick bronze trust-washer between the end of the splines and the sleevegear. this takes up the force when the clutch is pulled. That shaft works with endplay but no need for a trustwasher or contact on the BSA as the small bearing will take up the axial force when the clutch is operated...... a very clever design .....:relaxed:

BR Michiel


BTW.: it is also good practice to clamp up the washers and shims so that they turn with the shaft, otherwise they will wear quickly

Re: The Dreaded M20 Third Gear, or not?

The shafts should be assembled within the case with 'minimal clearance' according to the factory worksheets...I've read in other publications that .005"-.010" is the correct setting...I would certainly consider .005" to be a reasonable 'minimum'..

Shimming the shaft achieves that and also serves to position the main shaft within the box, the shimming moving it towards the sleeve gear to take up excessive play..When that has been properly achieved whether the ratchet nuts are tightened sufficiently to take up the end float or not is probably irrelevant in practice I would think...Personally I tighten them only enough to preserve the clearance and that hasn't had any detrimental effects on the shims or splines so far...Either way the clearance is preserved between the sleeve gear and the splines...

However, if the shimming is not done correctly and the shaft is too tight when the inner cover is fully tightened up that will force the spline against the sleeve gear...When the box is in neutral with the engine running the shafts are turning but the sleeve gear isn't so there is running contact between the two parts when there shouldn't be..In that case the spline can wear....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: The Dreaded M20 Third Gear, or not?

Yes, off course..after setting up the mainshaft there should be endplay to prevent locking up.....

Point is that, if the meshing of the gears and dogs is correct, the excess of endplay will be pulled out to the ballbearing.

And what would be the function to set up a small endplay here ??? .... Think no function at all......it is actually very unwanted as makes it possible for the shims, washers and the bronzebush of the kickstartpinion to wear...

This wear increases the endplay and will bring the mainshaft closer to sleevegear when the clutch is operated....and yes....they will probably touch each other at some point and this could be the reason for the wear you find at the end of the splines.... and again, the spline ends are not designed to take that axial pressure like some other boxes..

I only see advantages in tightening up the nut firmly and locking up all the loose parts, just take care not to expand the bronze kickstartpinion bush otherwise the pinion can lock up.


BR Michiel

Re: The Dreaded M20 Third Gear, or not?

Pulling up against the bush may in fact be the better method...However, wear of the splines is still possible if the shimming is incorrect making the shaft too tight a fit...

With some end play the splines probably do periodically contact the sleeve gear but there is no pressure exerted on them if the end float is set correctly...I have rebuilt quite a few boxes for my own use and haven't found worn splines or broken shims after substantial mileages...It would be entirely reasonable to argue though that it's not necessary to take that risk if the nuts are tightened sufficiently to remove end float...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: The Dreaded M20 Third Gear, or not?

Why do you think BSA specified the first nut should only be tightened 'finger tight'?....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: The Dreaded M20 Third Gear, or not?

Hi Ian, I don't doubt that it will run OK for many miles when a small endplay is set up.

Just don't see why to bother setting it up in the first place. Never looked if there is wear on the end of the splines, I only check if it free with some play.

What do you do with mainshafts with some wear on the end of the splines, shim it out ?

All of no relevance in my view.....


Don't know why BSA specified the 'finger tight'..., maybe to prevent the risk of kickstartpinion bronze bush from expanding and locking up the pinion. Thight suggests no endplay.

The Standards Book talks about Nil/Free endplay, ballrace controlled.

20200225-111140


I just compare it with the crankshaft set up, all parts firmly clamped up to the ballrace, if not, your getting wear and trouble....:slightly_smiling_face:

Re: The Dreaded M20 Third Gear, or not?

Michiel, your view of this aspect of the job is more logical than mine so it must be concluded that your method is the correct one to follow...

That could theoretically remove the need to shim the main shaft entirely unless it is shimmed prior to tightening the nuts purely to position it within the box...That appears to be the case as .005" and .010" thick 'main shaft packing washers' are listed in the WD parts list..(Part nos. 66-3072/66-3072)...It seems they would not serve any purpose at all if the 'minimal' end float setting/positioning was not a requirement...

In conclusion and if that is the case, then the advice regarding the main shaft would be to shim it (position it) within the box to achieve minimal end float (approx. .005"), checking that it is totally free to turn when the inner cover is fully tightened. Then take up that float by tightening the ratchet nut finger tight, before fitting the tab washer and locknut...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: The Dreaded M20 Third Gear, or not?

Hi Ian, I shim the mainshaft almost purely with focus on how the dogs of the third gear catch... Maybe that is where the packing washers are for?


Re: The Dreaded M20 Third Gear, or not?

I think that is so..

In the event a main shaft was used that had worn splines from previous poor assembly and they were, lets say, .010" shorter, this could have an effect on the positioning between the gear on the shaft and the selector dog as the shaft would be .010" closer to the sleeve gear than it would otherwise be (and there would be .010" more shims at the other end to achieve the .005" end float)...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: The Dreaded M20 Third Gear, or not?

I have to say You are very knowledgeable chaps on this forum .

Lost Me from the first regarding the gearbox ..Mine appears to select fine & Im hoping this continues as I would have no clue how to tackle

issues arising !

Many Thanks to all contributors on this Fantastic website ...Im sure Im not on My Own seeming to struggle working on these machines .

email (option): s.foster11@blueyonder.co.uk

Re: The Dreaded M20 Third Gear, or not?

You're not alone Steve...But none of us was born with a spanner in our hand!!..:laughing: ...I'm still learning after 50 years!...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: The Dreaded M20 Third Gear, or not?

Thank you all for the very helpful comments. As I mentioned having bench tested it after rebuild and using parts from a later box, all seemed slick, or the best it could be. Once in the frame, with the clutch and primary/rear chain on I noticed this hesitation to go into third going up and almost a bounce on the selector coming up from fourth. As you do, recheck everything, adjust what you can but still the same. Keeping pressure on the gearchange didn't help either.

So inspection cover off and check again. There seemed play within the selector on the pin at the knuckle of third. In fact considerable more than the other selector. Well spotted Ian.

Strip down in frame and the inspection saw the possible problem. At that point on the knuckle as I call it but the sharp bent in the selector the side towards the outer cover is pointed and the tip worn/broken off giving 40 thou play.

Pretty nifty with welding so using a nickel rod, dabbed a piece on that shaped up with a Dremel. All on the shaft without removing the pin etc. I Left 10 thou play.

Reassembled and smooth as silk with no hesitations. Test run with engine running on stand, again positive and smooth as silk. Up and down the drive, still great. Even better when I put more oil in! Ha

I've taken pics but can't load them. FRUSTRATING. So if any one wants to view them I can forward for someone else to load?

Great results and may help others. Thanks to all

email (option): dwmcrofts@btinternet.com

Re: The Dreaded M20 Third Gear, or not?

Hi Dave...Glad to hear you got there in the end..Ian:relaxed:

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Nieuwe pagina 1