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Re: Considering my first ww2 bike Norton 16h or

Thanks everyone :) really do appreciate the replies and information.

Reason I asked about the Indian tinware was I was offered a wd16h the other day that at first glance looked pretty cool.
The owner was upfront about it being fitted with Indian tank and mudguards, headlight and toolbox though I noticed the lack of contract plate on the rear mudguard being a tell although I realise they are available repro as well.

Are the shapes of the tanks different or to the trained eye's would there be a way to tell without the seller telling you that the tinware is indian.

This has set me thinking if I go to view a bike and the owners not upfront about it would there be any way of identifying them not being genuine so I don't end up paying for something it's not.


Do like the Ariels Velo's an the Matchless's as well all look very cool! Although the preference at the moment is Norton an the BSA as my uncle raced Norton's an I've been using my 650ss every single day it's good to know the bsa's are good bikes as well as I've not had one yet.

Looking forward to getting one found an getting to all the events with you all :)

Thanks again,

email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

Re: Considering my first ww2 bike Norton 16h or

It's not really possible to speak of 'Indian' as there is no single company that owns up to making the parts and they may come from ten workshops spread across the sub-continent or be the work of one man who has good days and bad days !

In general, the tanks don't look too bad in profile to me. Certainly better than any Indian Commando Roadster tanks that I've seen. I've never heard of one fitting the brackets though. They've always needed a bit of cutting and rewelding and of course from underneath, they look more fabricated than press-tooled.

The front mudguard inverted 'V' at the front of the rib is always too square in profile, generally off-centre and probably made by hammering into a profiled block. The original mudguard was quite a streamlined thing - identical to pre-war civilian.

Tool boxes are variable but can be replaced at any time so I wouldn't let that put me off...In general they lack the chain and handbook clip which later boxes usually had.

The "Walk away" for me would be Indian-made forks, recognised by the thick clumsily cast lugs and links and the pigeon-shit welding. Quite frankly, I wouldn't even be prepared to test ride a bike fitted with them.

As for the make thing. Most of us are a bit tribal. I think the worst thing that you can do is to believe,as most 'classic' motorcyclists do that 'all WD motorcycles are the same. They're all slow and green' In fact they all have their own character and quite importantly, style. They also changed a lot during the six years of war. Have a good think about what you like and what you want. Prejudice is allowed to come into it too :-)

For sheer class, you can't beat the pre-war / 1939 models...but they don't have the handy heavy pannier sets or all the parts like canvas grips that many feel are 'essential' to look 'warry'. :grinning:

Re: Considering my first ww2 bike Norton 16h or

When I got my 16h as a basket case, I was lucky enough to get plenty of original parts with it including the original mudguards, toolbox, and fuel tank, my fuel tank has a plate on the under side with a number stamped and plenty of pitting for originality. The only Indian item is the headlamp and blackout which look very good anyway and plus I fitted genuine switch panel with wartime 4 position switch and 1940 dated cz amp meter and period reflector.
As for the contract plates, if a bike thees days hasn’t got one, it don’t mean it’s not a genuine ww2 bike as most plates are missing or parts got sealed ect.

Thanks, Barry

email (option): fullerbarry@hotmail.co.uk

Re: Considering my first ww2 bike Norton 16h or

Thanks Rik an Barry again brilliant information didn't realise that about the foreign forks does anyone have any pictures of that area an what they should look like? Saw the cost of forks so not something I'd wanna screw up on.

Totally agree don't mind changing the odd part as that's to be expected on older bikes like these :) Just every shred of info is helping me know a bit more about what I'm looking at. Probably a bit more cautious after buying a show winning commando then having to take the engine apart within a couple of trips as the previous owner had left the head full of blast media gutter but she's coming back together nicely now crank back together next week.

Thanks for the information on the tank Barry something I can keep an eye out for when I get offered a bike.

I guess that's what I'm trying to figure out really is what the difference is in character between the bikes if ones sweeter handling vs one with a livelier engine etc. All good stuff and all really interesting I said to my ol man before when I was doing some work on one of the bikes that I wouldn't mind all of them haha! Alas funds wont allow that for a long time to come :) Just got enough for the one wd bike for now.

How do you actually grease the valve guides on the Norton's had a quick flick through the 16h manual before but didn't see it gonna order a hard copy one this week.

email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

Re: Considering my first ww2 bike Norton 16h or

I found the gear ratios to be more evenly spaced on the M20 than when I rode a friends Norton and the Norton box itself is more old fashioned and a lot more expensive. I found the over long gear lever travel not so good on the Norton...I'm still trying to get my head around performance comparisons made between the Norton and the M20....More or less the same power output and more or less the same weight so I can only conclude (as performance is based on power to weight ratio up to about 60mph) that gearing differences provide the different 'feel'....

I've never felt at a handling disadvantage when riding with Norton mounted riders...I don't have any problems keeping up under any conditions (as many on this forum can testify), bearing in mind my own M20 has an oversize engine and can easily out perform a 16H...However, the Norton damping arrangements on the forks are definitely better than the BSA...

The standard M20 is relatively pedestrian as most basic 500cc side valves are...I've not really tested the Norton front brake but can say, in common with many bikes of the period, the M20 brake is only average in performance...The rear brake is fine IMO...

The greased tappets and other engine features are a minus on the Norton as far as I'm concerned when making comparisons..I also think the BSA has a better design for the timing gear including the cam followers, though both bikes can do high mileages when correctly rebuilt and maintained...Overall, ignoring the details, they are both basically capable of the same thing out on the road...

Where the BSA definitely scores if you intend to cover many miles is in the availability and cost of spares...The M20 shared many components with other models, was produced before, during and after the war (until 1963 in fact),benefits from a good dealer network and there are still some surviving NOS parts...It's about as good as it can be for a wartime machine...

I think you should certainly keep your mind open to other models as well though...I personally think the WDCO Royal Enfield is woefully under rated and has good spares availability generally, the G3L Matchless is a contender, well thought of by their owners, though it wouldn't be my choice...
I personally think the WNG Ariel is the best bike when considered 'in the round' though they are fewer in number, perhaps a bit more expensive and again not so good for parts...

I think what you have to weigh up is desirability from your own standpoint, practicality for the use you want to put it to and the overall design aspects...Then again you could just ignore all that and buy the one you think looks nice!...

Finally, IMO you shouldn't buy a bike with a high content of Indian made replica parts...That will always devalue it for many enthusiasts and there isn't a particular shortage of WD bikes...A more original one will turn up if you are patient...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: Considering my first ww2 bike Norton 16h or

Hello Tom,

Wrt the Norton Maintenance and instruction manual,
You can download that from my website www.wdnorton.nl free of charge !

cheers,

Rob

email (option): wd16h@telfort.nl

Re: Considering my first ww2 bike Norton 16h or

Thanks Ian that's just the sort of information I was looking for massive help :) yeah I think patience is gonna be the key rather buy the right bike than rush then spend ages sorting loads.

Thanks Rob that's brilliant!! Just bookmarked your website I'll get it downloaded and start having a read.

email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

Re: Considering my first ww2 bike Norton 16h or

I totally agree with the "go with what you fancy" approach. To my mind, the Ariel WNG or Matchless G3WO are the nicest bikes overall, but thats just my opinion and the one I fancy and have owned for yonks is a WDG3L! So what? As I suggested before, Tom, he way to avoid paying over the odds for a wrong un is to take along an expert or at least consult back here with photos and details......the guys here love it!

Re: Considering my first ww2 bike Norton 16h or

Thanks mate! Really do appreciate the advice you are all giving me, cool to know the community is so great got me really fired up for finding the right bike already been steered away from two potential bikes that would have been a mistake one with numbers issue that on the face looked brilliant an one full of indian tinware which price wise to put right would have exceeded buying one with the right bits already to put right.

Every day is a learning day an I'm really enjoying learning :) once I get offered some more bikes I'll get some posts up an seek all the expert wisdom from you guys my tz project sold within 5 minutes at the weekend an was picked up an paid for so all set to get hunting for one now.

email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

Re: Considering my first ww2 bike Norton 16h or

Tim it’s best that you get know about bits and pieces, to look out for bodges and incorrect parts. Some parts do have a part number or even a date stamped. There’s plenty of wd bikes that do come up for sale, do your research and determine if you can trust the seller.


Barry

email (option): fullerbarry@hotmail.co.uk

Re: Considering my first ww2 bike Norton 16h or

Thanks Barry :) yeah that's what I'm on a mission to do learn an research as much as I can while hunting, guess it's cumulative thing gaining knowledge on bikes that's certainly not learnt overnight especially on something as interesting as wd bikes. Know my 650ss like the back of my hand what's right on them an what's not but that knowledge took a bit of time to gain.

Stuff like the date stamping and parts numbers on parts like you say good to learn about :)

I'm looking forward to getting to the level you guys are at one day with the wd bikes very inspiring.

Just wanna say again thanks to you all for all the great advice big help.

Tom

email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

Re: Considering my first ww2 bike Norton 16h or

It's probably expected of me, so I'll stick up for the Norton a bit...for what they are, they do feel quite sporty. They feel a bit physically smaller and I wonder if that means that they sometimes / often have smaller lighter riders ? Ian makes the point about gear ratios. With a four speed box and the same 1:1 top ratio, there will be a compromise somewhere. My impression is that the Norton 3rd and 4th are closer which means they're easier to keep on the boil on an incline.

I'm not sure about the timing gear aspect. In theory, with everything in good condition and properly put together, it's a more engineered solution, but this forum is full of posts from M20 owners with leaking magneto seals, and tales of having to mill the crankcases once they've been worn by running loose (and they only have a clamping band). The Norton mag is on a separate removable plate and held by four screws. We think nothing of a car engine running chain driven cams. The load on a magneto drive is much lower. In practice the Norton system works without problems.

As with most of these comparisons, a good example of either one is a better buy than a poor example of the other.

Take your time though and have a think about where you might want to end up with military vehicles. Early or late war ? How important is historical accuracy likely to be to you ? Enfield WD/COs make good road bikes but aren't the first choice for off-roading...and apart from one or two weren't used overseas. Most were used by the Fire Service.

...But you're a Norton man. You know what you've got to do :grinning:

Mentioned-in-Despatches

Re: Considering my first ww2 bike Norton 16h or

Thanks Rik! That cover is awesome thanks for posting.

Yeah it's interesting isn't it how all the bike marques go about thing's differently fascinates me.

I've logged thousands of miles on my 650ss in all sorts of conditions now with a chain driven mag an timing gear sounds an looks like the 16h is basically a similar setup as my 67' 650ss in those respects :sunglasses: I can see the advantage and disadvantages of both systems.
Just the sidevalve setup an girder forks I need to learn about although that'l be fun to learn.

I'm actually quite tall 6'2 with a 32 inch leg but a bit of a rake at 14 stone haha!

At the last national bike show I actually got to sit on the Velocette ww2 bike and that fitted great as does my 650ss. Not sure how the Velocette's differ in seating position to the Nortons etc.

Totally agree gonna hunt about for the best example I can in my budget.

I think eventually I'll probably end up being a bit of a stickler for the details with my Yamaha rd 350 lc's I'm probably what they class as one of the green bolt brigade (due to the pastive coating finish on the bolts) with those an the 650ss I've got the knowledge to know exactly whats right an that took quite a bit of time to aquire with the usual pain and suffering along the way!

Having said that though about accuracy I use all my classics in the craziest of weathers was out in the local floods on the 650ss.

So the bike I end up getting being right to use is the primary objective then accuracy in the details although it'l be great to find one with both.

I'm still sussing out the differences between early an late war specs I do love the look of the blackout headlights on them am I right in saying those were post 41?

As you say being a Norton man I think if I can find a good wd16h I'll be a happy bunny then I just need to talk dad into ditching his gsx-r 750 for one of the other marques :joy: The Velo's do look a stunning bike as well in fact I'd say I like all of them :)

email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

Re: Considering my first ww2 bike Norton 16h or

Don't get your heart too set on a Velo Tom!:relaxed: Only about 2150 of both models were produced until the contract was canceled by early 42.
You'll have enough trouble finding the right 16H or M20 from the many many thousands produced. Ron
MAF-213

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: Considering my first ww2 bike Norton 16h or

It sounds like your up for the Norton primarily....I'd concentrate on looking for one of those...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: Considering my first ww2 bike Norton 16h or

Wow Ron that's a low amount of bikes on the Velo's.

Yep I think its gonna be Norton, Bsa an then Ariel/Matchless in batting order.

Dependant of course on what turns up been a big help finding out about the differences between the models helps give the search a bit of direction. With a good solid backup plan if I don't find the right Norton. Love them all though which I guess is good as it opens the possibilities of bikes up a bit.

email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

Re: Considering my first ww2 bike Norton 16h or

We have noticed at various large gatherings that despite the huge amount of Norton's produced, that the ratio is staggering. I don't know the figures of course but something like one Norton to 20-30 BSA's. Since you're already a Norton guy, I would agree with Ian that a 16H could be your obvious choice. Plus you will make at least Rik, Rob, Sven and Horror very happy bunnies.:smile: Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: Considering my first ww2 bike Norton 16h or

Cheers Ron that's interesting :)

Yep haha gonna go for the obvious choice for me an gonna get the hunt on properly for a 16h an see what turns up. Maybe they are all out there tucked away waiting to be ridden :) least if I can find one an get out on it to the events that'll be another one getting used.

Thinking of going to the stoneleigh show in February as well make a difference to Stafford bike show.

email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

Re: Considering my first ww2 bike Norton 16h or

You will not be disappointed with a WD 16H Norton I absolutely love mine even though it is not in original condition and for years I have also ridden WD M.20s so plenty of experience of both.

Re: Considering my first ww2 bike Norton 16h or

Thanks Keith that's ace to hear yeah main thing is the enjoyment we all get.

If I'm truly honest with myself after having a think the Nortons the one that really gets the passion going for me having the 650ss an the Commando my dads older bro raced Nortons so always been passionate about them having grown up around the stories of the crazy to think I'm using the same models as he did all the time.

So gonna stick with the plan an try hunt a Norton 16h out. I guess like the rest of you once I've got the bug I'll probably end with some of the other ones in the years to come as well but for now operation Norton :)

email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

Re: Considering my first ww2 bike Norton 16h or

Hi Tom,

Here's a girder Norton for sale;

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Norton-Big-4-600cc-Side-valve/293369281099?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

It's not mine......


Cheers,

Sven

email (option): snvosselman at g mail dot com

Re: Considering my first ww2 bike Norton 16h or

Stop it Sven! That's not military! Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: Considering my first ww2 bike Norton 16h or

It is also somewhat of a dog's breakfast - keep looking would be my advice.

As a matter of interest I ran my SWD Big 4 as a solo for some years - took out the trials ratios and put in standard ratios, upped the engine sprocket to 22 teeth I think or it may have been 21 teeth with a 43 tooth rear wheel sprocket that strangely was one which had carried the live axle. Cruised easily at 60mph but did require some paddling if starting off on a steep hill. Top speed unknown as I had to take the 80mph speedo off for fear of breaking it.

Re: Considering my first ww2 bike Norton 16h or

A 1941 Norton 16H is listed for sale by PEMBROKESHIRE CLASSICS only one photo it looks OK but I know little about the finer points of these bikes, worth a look.

email (option): strongperry@sky.com

Re: Considering my first ww2 bike Norton 16h or

Hi Mike been in touch with Pembrokeshire its fitted with a 1946 engine. Does look ok though. Ideally I'd like to get one from another owner as Barry, Ferg an Ron have said be good to chat to the person I'm getting it from who's owned it before.

Not ruling dealers out though if the correct bike comes up at one.

Thanks for the heads up though :)

Tom

email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

Re: Considering my first ww2 bike Norton 16h or

Well I got hold of another correct AG4 mag which has been rebuilt, I’ve fitted it and set the timing. I also fitted the Norton carb with the 206R jet block to se what’s it’s like and to be honest the engine starts and runs very well, also there’s no fuel spitting out, please note, I Havant cut or drilled the carb body. Air mixture adjustment is also working.
The only thing ive got to try and do is to stop the mag from slipping forward? I think the way Norton mags are mounted is a crap idea,

Barry

email (option): fullerbarry@hotmail.co.uk

Re: Considering my first ww2 bike Norton 16h or

Barry Fuller
Well I got hold of another correct AG4 mag which has been rebuilt, I’ve fitted it and set the timing. I also fitted the Norton carb with the 206R jet block to se what’s it’s like and to be honest the engine starts and runs very well, also there’s no fuel spitting out, please note, I Havant cut or drilled the carb body. Air mixture adjustment is also working.
The only thing ive got to try and do is to stop the mag from slipping forward? I think the way Norton mags are mounted is a crap idea,

Barry
Sorry I’ve put this on the wrong post

email (option): fullerbarry@hotmail.co.uk

Re: Considering my first ww2 bike Norton 16h or

Forgot to ask.......tried a Want Ad on the Norton OC (or similar) web site? Thats how I found my WDG3L and other stuff (via AMOC). Amazing what the old boys have squirreled away (of course, WE, are not old boys!). Via that, I was put in touch with Jack Dienst (ex-DR and self published irreverent author!) who lived locally......alas he had just sold the last of his bikes, a 16h, his favourite as it happens, but I got lots of advice and a NOS helmet.

Re: Considering my first ww2 bike Norton 16h or

Hi Ferg thanks for the reply again :) yeah got one up on the noc and just paid to put one on milweb as well so we shall see what turns up thinking of going along to Stoneleigh in February as well.

Haha yeah I got my 650ss like that from the original owner who had owned her since 1967 which was amazing still in touch with him as well from when I got it when I was 22 just turned 30.

Always great to meet people like that, said to dad things always seem to turn up when you least expect it sure the right bike is just round the corner.

email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

Re: Considering my first ww2 bike Norton 16h or

Had a brilliant day today.

Got to sit on a Wd 16H today and look at all the dispatch riders gear thanks to a friendly owner who invited me over to have a look at his got me even more excited now as I know I fit on one even though I'm tall! Very humbling as well thinking about what the bike may have been through!

Really can't wait to get one of my own an start cranking the miles on.

Learnt an endless amount today about the details to look for always amazes me just how brilliant the bike community is

Was amazing as his dad had served in Egypt an so did my Grandpa who was in the 8th army. Who's the main reason I'm hunting for one miss him alot.

Thanks again mate very much appreciated.



110% convinced the 16h is the right one for me out of all the wd marques look forward to getting along to all the events an rallies when one turns up.

email (option): tjsblade@googlemail.com

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