First of all, Thank all you for your responces, I must have touched a nerve some where! I can understand the desire to comemerate family and events in a important period in history and we all have our own conection to that some where in our own way. But and this a big but, we are all ( on this site) riding around on funny old bikes which in any Dawinistic world would have long since expired, but they havn't.So we are here sitting on an old bike that we know nothing about thinking that my Dad/ Grandad/Uncle sat on one of these when it was new. But (a word I use a lot)when it was new and until it went to disposal it was sat on by blokes who mostly didn't have an option on their future and at least of all sticking regimental igsignture all over the the place which from what I can comprehend was fairly rare.
However there are many more people who know more about this than I and I leave it to them to clarify the details but a bike like mine that sat for most of its life in a shed in Cambridgeshire should not be be presented as the first into France even if your relative did that becauce it isn't true and it never will be. So let's be honest and just say my relative rode a bike just like this but it isn't this one. By the way if anybody has a semi sevicable Hurricane available I could aways paint in my Dad's colours
and Makebelieve.
Richard

I think there would be few, or possibly no people who would suggest that the bike they had marked in a relatives unit markings was the actual machine they rode. I certainly don't and for me there is no 'make believe' involved in that regard. I actually find the suggestion I'm engaging in that activity a bit offensive...My relative that was killed on D day 'rode' ashore in a DD Sherman tank so, as I don't own a Sherman tank I decided my bike would represent a typical vehicle from that unit. I make no claims as to its specific history but to meet my desire to make that representation unit markings were obviously essential...

I have taken my bike to the 4/7th. Royal Dragoon Guards memorial ceremony at Creully in Normandy more than once and the veterans there were pleased to see a machine representing their old unit. That fact alone made it worthwhile for me, apart from any personal considerations regarding a family member...

Personally, I think whether you choose to recognise or commemorate a relatives service in a tangible way, whether you mark a vehicle to reflect an interest you have, or even if you just like the particular unit marking and would like to see it on your bike it really makes little difference...
There is, after all, just the SLIGHTEST possibility that not everyone has the same objectives and isn't obsessive about presenting an absolutely accurate historical picture when they go out on their bike...

I'm presently in the latter stages of completing a 'period' BSA Gold Star café racer project...It hasn't existed previously, I didn't ride it back in my youth and no one from the 'rocker' era ever sat on it...Historically inaccurate?...Does it matter?...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Here's the offending machine...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

There is an argument that a restoration isn't finished without a set of markings, an unmarked vehicle represents an unissued piece of equipment with no reason to be on the road.

In order for any military vehicle to undertake any journey a complex set of paperwork had to exist and the markings were a part of it, without them you would probably be stopped by every Military Policeman you met demanding to know your business.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Lovely Ian.

My thoughts. Just as Pluto doesn't care if we call it a planet or a dwarf planet and a spider isn't concerned whether it's an arachnid, an insect or a bug, the bike itself also has no opinion in the matter. The bike's parts came off a production line along with thousands of others and with relatively minor variations during the war years. The sequential markings stamped on the engine and frame was just another step in a completely anonymous assembly process. Afterward, the bike didn't 'see' action, its rider did. Now if we know a rider saw particular action, their story, and we know and locate the bike they rode, that can make for a wonderful narrative. But if we don't locate the exact bike, using instead another frame number to tell the same story that's almost as good. It's my opinion that when those otherwise largely anonymous bits and pieces fall under our wing, the narrative we choose to tell with them is entirely up to us. It's our story to tell and the bike itself will be indifferent.

My own bike is or appears to be largely original and in one piece with original paint and markings. You can see the paint is heavily alligatored, the markings faded and nearly unreadable. I could strip it and tell another story, looking like it just came off the assembly line but I like it as a representation of what happens when 70+ years go by. And it's a lot less trouble.
;)

email (option): moatjon [ at ] aol.com

It's a while since I saw an M20 in that condition in England...
Most were used and abused as cheap transport by a succession of owners who didn't value them, often to the point where they were dumped or broken up for spares or scrap...Others have been customised, civilianised or restored to a military specification...
Very few unrestored examples currently retain a full set of original components or finishes...

Broadly speaking I agree with your sentiments..We all have our own view of what is correct for our particular time owning a bike...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Thank you Ian,
Your comments on the machine above are perfectly correct and if all of us had left their bikes in as recieved condition(I wish I had) they at least would have their own history. But to restore it would remove the evidence and subsitute another, And to ascribe to it a different role that never existed for that machine is unture ( or another word I shall not use), no matter your good intentions. So I'm still perplexed over this desire to somehow ingage in dressing up your bikes in roles their proberly never had?
Enlightenment please.
Richard

Oh No ! All these years I've been faking it on a Commando because I mistakenly thought that it was my motorycle and I was free to paint it any damned colour that I felt like or does this puritanism only apply to ex-military vehicles ? I only have to listen to 'Tangerine' on Led Zep III and I go out and change a fuel tank over...For the record, it was Candy Red from the factory, black and gold when I bought it and was a Long Range Fastback for a short while which will surely leave me condemned to the fires of Hell ?

Same old scruffy '08 large pack throw-overs though...











For the record, my WD16H has faithful replicas of the almost obliterated original formation signs It has some fragmentation damage too...Does that mean that no other vehicle should ever portray an otherwise forgotten BEF formation ? I don't in any way see how that can be so...







Is it more valid as a way of paying tribute to the men of a BEF Infantry battalion or an RASC Supply Company than those depicted by the KM20 and 3SW next to it ? I really don't see how.



It's a portrayal...The time has passed. We all know that...Would history be better served by leaving them languishing in barns and sheds as it's 'authentic' ?

'[if all of us had left their bikes in as received condition(I wish I had) they at least would have their own history...']

This is an utterly nonsensical argument...The M20 I posted a picture of in my previous post was an incomplete 'basket case' when I bought it and if it was ever to return to the road as a complete, serviceable machine a full rebuild was the only option...

I could have piled it in the corner of my workshop and tried to impress anyone that visited me with the evidence of it's 'full history' record but frankly in that event I think they would have considered me unhinged in some way...
The fact is with many restored vehicles, especially basket cases, many unserviceable parts of the original machine require replacement during that process and all the parts have to be refinished, so the factory finish or what's left of it, has to be removed ...

God forbid you came across an M20 that had been badly made into a metallic purple chopper in the 70's...I assume that as part of the bikes history you would be duty bound to preserve it for posterity...:laughing:

Machines like the unrestored M20 above are absolutely in a tiny minority these days so the option of preservation in that state doesn't present itself to most people...Particularly after (or arguably before) a full rebuild the physical entity of the original machine has already been lost so at that point any 'incorrect' markings applied have little relevance from a history preservation standpoint....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

This is my BSA WB30....No known history, no factory finish remaining but the numbers were from a Naval contract of 100 bikes so I put it into Royal Marines Engineers markings....Why?...Because the Navy were responsible for the Marines, I live in an area with a strong Marines presence and I'm an Engineer...The fact is the end product, however pretty, is just a representation of how it might have looked originally..Once the originality/history has gone, it's gone and at that point some artistic license comes into play...

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

NB. That bike could be yours......Fictitious markings and all:smile: :smile: :smile: Ron
http://www.stuart-bray-motorcycles.co.uk/bikes/military-bikes/bsa-wb-30-1942-restoredrare-motorcycle-badged-to-a-royal-marines-ww2-unit/

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Yes, it moved on a while ago, but for a price any forum member could own this fine machine...I wonder why they changed the ammeter and pannier bags?...Ian:laughing:

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com