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I would like to badge my M20 in honour of my late grandfather, he had a long service in the RASC in WW2. His last unit was the 522 infantry brigade company RASC which was attached to the 50th infantry division. He was with this unit from Normandy until VE day serving with the mobile repair workshop. If anyone could help with authentic markings I would be grateful.
British markings can be a minefield and I think I'm right in saying that most motorcycle markings were not applied for the invasion (Maybe Rik can confirm?) But with some artistic license we might like to add some markings.
50 div had the 'TT' (Tyne Tees) patch. Here's what Wiki says. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50th_(Northumbrian)_Infantry_Division
Here's a picture of an earlier war Enfield with RASC which I copied on one of my Enfield's. The other side of the original bike has the same markings.....I put 3rd Div on my bike before I'd seen a picture of the other side. The Green/Red square is 'Infantry Brigades Company' and the other numbers listed for Infantry Brigades Company other than 73 are 70 and 71,...40 is HQ and 72 is Div troops company. Hopefully it's a start and someone else will chip in with more info.
Ron
email (option): ronpier@talk21.com
Ron Thanks for the info with a great photos plenty of ideas.
Mike
Now I know this is my particular soap box but... Your bike is your bike and you can do anything you like with it but it is also a historical actifact that you can ride around and enjoy, long may it continue. But as a bike it had its owm history of which you know little apart from its date and C number which is as much as any of us know, as to ascripe a different and almost certaintly erroneous identity to it seems to me a shame and misleading. Although I don't doubt your desire to honour your grandfather to suggest it is asocialated with his regiment/unit is clearly very doubtful. The important thing as I see it is that from a historical out look and I'm fairly certain that everyone on this site has one,a machine should be presented as in a form that can be shown to be part of its history. Most of our bikes survive because they never went further than the UK camp or storage unit they played out their active service in, mine certainly did and to give any other role would wrong, untrue, misleading and in years to come turn it into Longinus's spear.
Richard
I'm fortunate to have a 1939 machine that retained its original markings so it can be placed to within one of three motorcycles within a BEF division and although I find this aspect fascinating, there is a long and honourable tradition of marking ex-military vehicles to represent particular units. It's exactly what Regimental and other museums have always done and was widely carried out by ex-servicemen during the first wave of restorations during the 1970s and 1980s...some of them even used their service numbers in lieu of WD serials...and so what ?
I don't honestly think, with all the information now so freely available that any future historians are going to be fooled into thinking that markings in modern paint are original...and if they do then they haven't researched properly.
I don't even believe it can be implied that any machines in the UK now had never left the British Isles. Any vehicles in Germany at the end of the conflict were incorporated into BAOR and it's clear from the Key cards that there were regular movements including for storage and disposal.
Personally, I'm pleased to see vehicles marked to represent the logistical tail of 21st Army Group and its component units rather than the 'glamorous' units. Brigade Companies were pretty much up the sharp end anyway.
If we're going for 100% accuracy and looking at 50 Div in N.W. Europe then by this time, there had been an Army Council Instruction to the effect that 'Formation Signs' (The divisional marking in this case) were no longer to be displayed on motorcycles. Quite why this was is not clear to me as it must have made the job of Traffic Control even harder. This meant though that the 'TT' no longer appeared on the left hand side of the fuel tank and the red / green diagonal RASC 'Arm of Service' marking was applied on both sides. As Ron has indicated, for 1944 onwards, these serials were '70', '71', and '73' dependent upon the 'seniority' of the brigade to which they were attached.
I don't know for certain with 50th Div at this time but a Google search shows a National Archive record indicating that 522 Coy. RASC were attached to 69th Infantry Brigade who were the senior brigade within the division. Unless there was some odd historical reason for things having been done differently then this ought to mean that they displayed the serial '70' on each side of the fuel tank.
I don't know if you've seen the loading schedules for 522 Coy on WW2talk forum ? http://ww2talk.com/index.php?threads/loading-schedule-50-division-rasc-normandy-june-1944.74407/ It gives an idea of the number of motorcycles that they took ashore. There is no mention of the unit serial as the loaders relied on a 'movement serial' which was painted on the front of many of the vehicles - '58080' This was accompanied by a coloured stripe coding system, in this case Service Green followed by Dark Brown and then a further Service Green bar.
Many owners do apply formation signs to later-war portrayals. What sort of chap was your Grandfather ? Would he have liked to see it or was he the sort who sat through war films pointing out the errors ? Earlier in the war the TT was indeed displayed and the other vehicles would have carried it. He'd have worn it on his arms too.
Mike, in my opinion marking your machine to represent your Grandfathers service is a wonderful tribute.
70 on the RASC arm of service square on each side of the tank and on the tail piece of the rear mudguard appears to be correct for the D-Day period, some RASC units also had a specific unit emblem as well but I don't know what it was for the 522nd?
Rob
email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk
I've had my favourite M20 for 40 years and done something over 100,000 miles on it...So I've had it longer than the Army did and have probably covered at least as many miles as they did, perhaps more...
It was released and initially sold through one of the popular dealers at the time with an all over, including the engine, magdyno and gearbox, Maroon paintjob. However, it still had the full compliment of military parts...That first 'civvy' owner had it for years..In fact I tried to purchase it off him for nearly 11 years...
In the end he sold it to a ex. 8th Army veteran who sprayed it (badly) with NATO olive drab...No serial numbers or div. markings...No one bothered with that sort of thing back then. In fact not many people would even have been interested enough in its history to paint it green....This was when most ex military machines were used and abused to the point of destruction...
I bought I from him eventually and after I'd ridden it for a couple of years I decided to do a fuller restoration during which I chose to put it into 30 Corps markings (well I like that div. sign) and also returned it to the correct dull chrome and cadmium plated finishes...Frankly, most people thought I was mad to 'waste' so much money and time on an ex WD bike and it was extremely unusual then to see one finished in such a manner...
Lots of hard use eventually necessitated another rebuild and I decided it would be nice to do a desert bike...It happened I had picked up a genuine Vokes filter, although back then I didn't know that these weren't fitted to BSAs during the desert campaign!!..(Oops)..Anyway, this time I fancied signals markings....Around that time I became aware of the 'Phantom' signals unit that was formed in North Africa. It was a specialist Signals Unit and something different appealed...So Phantom markings and desert finish it was...
Again, many miles passed under the wheels of the dear old girl and deterioration of the cycle parts particularly (too much off road riding and salty beaches in Normandy) meant another rebuild loomed in the name of preserving the original tinware, particularly the mudguards...Back to European theatre colours, markings as yet undecided...
The point of this story is that not only is the bikes history a fluid and on going thing that doesn't stop in any particular place but that the current obsession/interest in the history, specifications and other details of these bikes is a very recent development and shouldn't be regarded or promoted as 'the only option'...it isn't...It's just one point of view with no more validity than another point of view...What we do with our bikes is a personal decision as it always has been...
I marked one of my M20s with the unit of a relative who was killed on D Day at only 21 years of age...What better tribute could I make to him and all the others that made that sacrifice, than to tell the people who ask what those markings represent...Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
Thanks to everyone who has replied, some important points have been raised. I have only recently acquired the M20 and discovered this wonderful website. I can understand the merit of having a machine as an authentic historical record in its own right. My machine has the frame number 27772 indicating a 1940 build, although the only part I can say is from the original machine is the front frame loop. As is common with most WM20 it has been rebuilt several times and now is in "late war spec". It reminds me of "Granddads old broom" over the years it has had the handle and then the head changed but it is still "Granddads old broom. For me personally I think a balance is to be made, not to over glamorise but to honour those who are no longer here. After all my grandfather served six years mostly with the RASC attached to the 50th Div including two years in the western desert then Sicily,Italy before returning for the invasion of NW Europe ending up in Berlin. As for the tank markings I will decide over the winter and then update the site.
Thanks Mike. PS the bike has a post war rebuild plate I will send the details in another post.
I think there would be few, or possibly no people who would suggest that the bike they had marked in a relatives unit markings was the actual machine they rode. I certainly don't and for me there is no 'make believe' involved in that regard. I actually find the suggestion I'm engaging in that activity a bit offensive...My relative that was killed on D day 'rode' ashore in a DD Sherman tank so, as I don't own a Sherman tank I decided my bike would represent a typical vehicle from that unit. I make no claims as to its specific history but to meet my desire to make that representation unit markings were obviously essential...
I have taken my bike to the 4/7th. Royal Dragoon Guards memorial ceremony at Creully in Normandy more than once and the veterans there were pleased to see a machine representing their old unit. That fact alone made it worthwhile for me, apart from any personal considerations regarding a family member...
Personally, I think whether you choose to recognise or commemorate a relatives service in a tangible way, whether you mark a vehicle to reflect an interest you have, or even if you just like the particular unit marking and would like to see it on your bike it really makes little difference...
There is, after all, just the SLIGHTEST possibility that not everyone has the same objectives and isn't obsessive about presenting an absolutely accurate historical picture when they go out on their bike...
I'm presently in the latter stages of completing a 'period' BSA Gold Star café racer project...It hasn't existed previously, I didn't ride it back in my youth and no one from the 'rocker' era ever sat on it...Historically inaccurate?...Does it matter?...Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
Here's the offending machine...Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
There is an argument that a restoration isn't finished without a set of markings, an unmarked vehicle represents an unissued piece of equipment with no reason to be on the road.
In order for any military vehicle to undertake any journey a complex set of paperwork had to exist and the markings were a part of it, without them you would probably be stopped by every Military Policeman you met demanding to know your business.
Rob
email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk
Lovely Ian.
My thoughts. Just as Pluto doesn't care if we call it a planet or a dwarf planet and a spider isn't concerned whether it's an arachnid, an insect or a bug, the bike itself also has no opinion in the matter. The bike's parts came off a production line along with thousands of others and with relatively minor variations during the war years. The sequential markings stamped on the engine and frame was just another step in a completely anonymous assembly process. Afterward, the bike didn't 'see' action, its rider did. Now if we know a rider saw particular action, their story, and we know and locate the bike they rode, that can make for a wonderful narrative. But if we don't locate the exact bike, using instead another frame number to tell the same story that's almost as good. It's my opinion that when those otherwise largely anonymous bits and pieces fall under our wing, the narrative we choose to tell with them is entirely up to us. It's our story to tell and the bike itself will be indifferent.
My own bike is or appears to be largely original and in one piece with original paint and markings. You can see the paint is heavily alligatored, the markings faded and nearly unreadable. I could strip it and tell another story, looking like it just came off the assembly line but I like it as a representation of what happens when 70+ years go by. And it's a lot less trouble.
;)
email (option): moatjon [ at ] aol.com
It's a while since I saw an M20 in that condition in England...
Most were used and abused as cheap transport by a succession of owners who didn't value them, often to the point where they were dumped or broken up for spares or scrap...Others have been customised, civilianised or restored to a military specification...
Very few unrestored examples currently retain a full set of original components or finishes...
Broadly speaking I agree with your sentiments..We all have our own view of what is correct for our particular time owning a bike...Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
Thank you Ian,
Your comments on the machine above are perfectly correct and if all of us had left their bikes in as recieved condition(I wish I had) they at least would have their own history. But to restore it would remove the evidence and subsitute another, And to ascribe to it a different role that never existed for that machine is unture ( or another word I shall not use), no matter your good intentions. So I'm still perplexed over this desire to somehow ingage in dressing up your bikes in roles their proberly never had?
Enlightenment please.
Richard
Oh No ! All these years I've been faking it on a Commando because I mistakenly thought that it was my motorycle and I was free to paint it any damned colour that I felt like or does this puritanism only apply to ex-military vehicles ? I only have to listen to 'Tangerine' on Led Zep III and I go out and change a fuel tank over...For the record, it was Candy Red from the factory, black and gold when I bought it and was a Long Range Fastback for a short while which will surely leave me condemned to the fires of Hell ?
Same old scruffy '08 large pack throw-overs though...
For the record, my WD16H has faithful replicas of the almost obliterated original formation signs It has some fragmentation damage too...Does that mean that no other vehicle should ever portray an otherwise forgotten BEF formation ? I don't in any way see how that can be so...
Is it more valid as a way of paying tribute to the men of a BEF Infantry battalion or an RASC Supply Company than those depicted by the KM20 and 3SW next to it ? I really don't see how.
It's a portrayal...The time has passed. We all know that...Would history be better served by leaving them languishing in barns and sheds as it's 'authentic' ?
'[if all of us had left their bikes in as received condition(I wish I had) they at least would have their own history...']
This is an utterly nonsensical argument...The M20 I posted a picture of in my previous post was an incomplete 'basket case' when I bought it and if it was ever to return to the road as a complete, serviceable machine a full rebuild was the only option...
I could have piled it in the corner of my workshop and tried to impress anyone that visited me with the evidence of it's 'full history' record but frankly in that event I think they would have considered me unhinged in some way...
The fact is with many restored vehicles, especially basket cases, many unserviceable parts of the original machine require replacement during that process and all the parts have to be refinished, so the factory finish or what's left of it, has to be removed ...
God forbid you came across an M20 that had been badly made into a metallic purple chopper in the 70's...I assume that as part of the bikes history you would be duty bound to preserve it for posterity...:laughing:
Machines like the unrestored M20 above are absolutely in a tiny minority these days so the option of preservation in that state doesn't present itself to most people...Particularly after (or arguably before) a full rebuild the physical entity of the original machine has already been lost so at that point any 'incorrect' markings applied have little relevance from a history preservation standpoint....Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
This is my BSA WB30....No known history, no factory finish remaining but the numbers were from a Naval contract of 100 bikes so I put it into Royal Marines Engineers markings....Why?...Because the Navy were responsible for the Marines, I live in an area with a strong Marines presence and I'm an Engineer...The fact is the end product, however pretty, is just a representation of how it might have looked originally..Once the originality/history has gone, it's gone and at that point some artistic license comes into play...
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
NB. That bike could be yours......Fictitious markings and all:smile: :smile: :smile: Ron
http://www.stuart-bray-motorcycles.co.uk/bikes/military-bikes/bsa-wb-30-1942-restoredrare-motorcycle-badged-to-a-royal-marines-ww2-unit/
email (option): ronpier@talk21.com
Yes, it moved on a while ago, but for a price any forum member could own this fine machine...I wonder why they changed the ammeter and pannier bags?...Ian:laughing:
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com