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Re: WM20 being auctioned

Hi Cas,
the final price was $6500.for the rusted wm20 on Aust ebay.
Someone has a big restoration then !!
Cheers Dave

email (option): jamfam@dragnet.com.au

and this wm20 on downunder ebay

last registered ('taxed')in 1956

$5600AUD = 3000gbp= $3800USD

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/BSA-WM20-As-found-brilliant-restoration-project/193092339748?hash=item2cf5334824:g:pmQAAOSwT8pdddQG

FRAME NUMBER WM20 40715

ENGINE NUMBER WM20 44444





Re: and this wm20 on downunder ebay

As an aside. I've just been reading on another forum from Australian collectors, that there is a regime on asbestos. With border guards inspecting vehicles that might contain Asbestos, and serious costs and possible heavy fines and confiscation of vehicle.:white_frowning_face:
Ron
https://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/motoring/australian-border-force-detects-asbestos-in-classic-cars-owners-risk-thousands-of-dollars-in-fines/news-story/558ae57b52f7e995237f6e3193ea62b1

https://www.racq.com.au/Living/Articles/Asbestos-warning

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: and this wm20 on downunder ebay

Ron Pier
As an aside. I've just been reading on another forum from Australian collectors, that there is a regime on asbestos. With border guards inspecting vehicles that might contain Asbestos, and serious costs and possible heavy fines and confiscation of vehicle.:white_frowning_face:
Ron
https://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/motoring/australian-border-force-detects-asbestos-in-classic-cars-owners-risk-thousands-of-dollars-in-fines/news-story/558ae57b52f7e995237f6e3193ea62b1

https://www.racq.com.au/Living/Articles/Asbestos-warning
Yes it is a regular PIA.
The person who used to do my importing has closed down because of it.
And it smells just a little bit as you can have a totally asbestos free vehicle, complete with receipts for new brakes ,& clutchs but still be told to get it certified and even if found to be clean you still have to fork out for it.
However back yard internet vendors can bring in asbestos gaskets from India & China but they never ever get pinged.
So I rather feel one or more of the commercial resellers is working a government backed scam to prevent any opposition.

email (option): bsansw1@tpg.com.au

Re: and this wm20 on downunder ebay

BSA-WM20-RETURNS


Arrived home today with the M20 i previously owned and restored, purchased back again

Dave J.

email (option): jamfam@dragnet.com.au

Re: and this wm20 on downunder ebay

Good man...I hope you enjoy it the second time round....Keep it this time!!..:laughing: ....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: and this wm20 on downunder ebay

Hi Ian,
it`s a long story but i am happy to have it back.

Dave J.

email (option): jamfam@dragnet.com.au

Re: and this wm20 on downunder ebay

A trial run for the BSA National at Handdorf I hope.:grinning:

email (option): bsansw1@tpg.com.au

Re: and this wm20 on downunder ebay

Hi Trevor,
the bike was purchased from Adelaide, I am in North East Victoria.

Dave.J.

email (option): jamfam@dragnet.com.au

Re: WM20 being auctioned

the final price was $6500.for the rusted wm20 on Aust ebay.
Someone has a big restoration then !!
Cheers Dave


aaaand back up for sale by same dealer …..


https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/BSA-WM20-As-found-brilliant-restoration-project/193124137186?hash=item2cf71878e2:g:ICcAAOSwG7ddjFYD

Re: WM20 being auctioned

He was probably the only person bidding on it.Won't be the first time some one does that to encourage people to bid on something that is not worth much more than scrap metal value.

That is the big problem with evil pay , nothing is leagally binding.
All evil pay does is kick you off but because you do not have to actually prove you are a real person you are back on line in minutes.

email (option): bsansw1@tpg.com.au

Re: WM20 being auctioned

Not counting labor, how much would this cost to restore? It's not in a condition that would suit a "survivor" restoration. it is missing all the expensive/rare parts as well as all the regular things that will need replacing/fettling.

AUD$6500 is around US$4500 or GBP3600

I can't see much that does not need serious fixing or replacing. The buyer is getting a frame and a bottom end (and some rusty stuff of little value). This will be a US10K+ bike when done!... Seems to me at these prices that buying projects to restore, while thoroughly enjoyable and something I will continue doing, is a very expensive way to buy a vintage motorcycle.

email (option): cas.vanderwoude@gmail.com

Re: WM20 being auctioned

It is a fact that the classic bike restoration scene has never been rationally structured financially...

Firstly, when optimism (and I think you have to be optimistic when considering a full restoration) and in some cases a lack of knowledge/experience are combined it is my experience that the majority of people underestimate what a rebuild is going to cost...

Once the cost has been underestimated then the amount that it seems reasonable to pay for a project rises proportionally...This line of logic is easily confirmed simply by looking at what projects are selling for and carefully analysing the costs...They frequently just don't add up financially if one of the criteria is to at least break even...

Of course not everyone is concerned about that and sometimes the desire to do something over rides these considerations...However, if those conditions exist financial 'failure' is built in at the outset if the job is taken through to completion...

Secondly, having completed a rebuild the bikes go back onto the market at some point without all the expenses factored in...I would suggest the majority consider mainly what the parts and a limited number of services cost at this point..Hidden costs such as postage, driving around to get things done, the consumption of workshop consumables etc. etc. are simply ignored or forgotten...Crucially, and at the very top of that list is labour costs which aren't generally factored in at all...

Combine all that with a potential desire to get onto the next project and the result is that the finished bikes are actually under priced if looked at from a purely financial standpoint...

However, this must again be qualified by the realisation that it isn't always just about money...For example, my reason for rebuilding old bikes is simply that I like old bikes and I enjoy the workshop time (when things are going well!) that it takes to restore something...

I personally feel that an obsession with the cost/benefit equation that only takes regard of the finances rather misses the point of the whole exercise which in my case is based around more intangible ideas such as the pleasure of restoring something to working order...In other words 'investment return' isn't my top priority...

Sadly, when I'm out and about 'What's it worth?' is a question that has replaced 'How fast is it?' or similar and that reflects the changing attitudes to old bikes that has been fostered by the dealers and magazines that have spent decades promoting 'value' and 'investment' as one of the main reasons to own a bike...In reality that's not it at all..or IMO it shouldn't be...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: WM20 being auctioned

Ian, you are 100% spot-on (again). I get more joy from my time in the shed than my miles on the road, and I try to forget about the money I fork out and put it down to the cost of learning. That way I don't connect the cost with the end result and that seems to be enough to trick my mind into believing I'm being sensible with money and getting to own and ride the motorcycles I could not afford otherwise.

The truth is the opposite and deep down we all know that, while simultaneously using the "it's an investment" excuse to deflect the cold stare of spouse(s) and the dwindling bank account balance. Market economics tells us there is no connection between what something is worth, and what it cost, and the only way to make a monetary profit would be to dismantle all of my running bikes (and projects waiting their turn), and sell the parts on an online auction site. Truth be known, we could make more money buying nicely restored motorcycles at reasonable prices and parting them out. But very few of us do that thankfully. On occasion I've done this with metric projects I bought that were not feasible to restore. I can usually make 1000% return on my purchase price but that would be a business not a hobby or a lifestyle. So, I will continue to fork out inordinate amounts of money on rusty bits of metal so I can spend ever-increasing amounts of time in my shed, gazing lovingly at the piles of rust waiting to be reborn.

But I still wouldn't spend $6,500 on that WM20

email (option): cas.vanderwoude@gmail.com

Re: WM20 being auctioned

Many years ago when I was fairly well-known and contactable in the Norton Owners Club, a features writer on 'Classic Bike' phoned me up as they were doing an article on Commandos. The inevitable question followed..."What do you think your bike is worth ?" .."Dunno, about half what I've spent on it over the last five years, probably" He then tried a bit harder..."How much would you have to pay for a good Commando ?"..."People don't sell good Commandos". Apparently these weren't the sort of answers that they were looking for as they didn't feature me or mine in the finished article :grinning:

My personal feeling as someone who prefers a long-term relationship with his machinery is that I don't really trust an old bike or myself with it until I've taken it all apart anyway and joking apart, I probably wouldn't even risk riding half of the 'restored' bikes that one sees at events, let alone those cobbled together for resale.

A project bike has the advantage that one gets what one sees. Most of the parts are older and if not usable will serve as templates or examples for searching...compare it with a 'restored' bike with modern pattern levers, eBay sourced pattern mudguards (or, heaven forbid, forks..not that I'd fall for those) and a project becomes attractive..It is also a bit like buying on hire purchase. total cost may be higher but it is spread over a number of years and there is of course all the fun and social contact connected with parts searching.

In my opinion, currently, top quality well-sorted restorations are under-priced, projects are on the expensive side and most of the bikes that are being sold at £7500 - £8000 are mechanically botched, cosmetically challenged oil-leaking rip-offs and they are the real ones to avoid as the costs of getting them to to a decent level will be almost as high as a rusty basket case. That the parts have been assembled into something resembling a WD motorcycle won't reduce the time or the costs needed to get it right.

This is how my '39 16H started out and I don't regret a minute of the six years it took :grinning: I paid a bloody sight less than $6,500 for it though.

As-Found

Re: WM20 being auctioned

('But I still wouldn't spend $6,500 on that WM20..')

That's because you've thought about it in the light of the experience you've already had and you don't have any illusions about what's involved...I've got to say I agree wholeheartedly...

Saying that, I have taken on 'lost causes' in the past just for the challenge of getting it done against the odds...Happily that degree of masochism has now passed and I generally like to begin with something that I can broadly regard as a sensible starting point...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: WM20 being auctioned

There is a lot of truth in what Rik said. Buying a project gets you a bottom end, a transmission, a frame and two wheel hubs. The only difference in value is related to whether certain expensive bits are there or not. There are limits to this principle, but it takes just as much money and time to rebuild one in very poor condition than it does for one in better condition. Absolute horrors like the one above, and very original "barn finds" are excluded from this rule of thumb but most things in between are worth about the same.

But when you see a pile of rust like the $6,500 rip-snorter here, and you begin to wonder if the frame has rusted through somewhere, the best thing one can do is what the owner did for this one - list it on an online auction site. After saying all that, the new owner is quite likely to end up on this forum, read this, and think we are all bastards for dissing his/her new pride and joy. And I guess its just money after all. So the initial purchase cost more than it should but there is still a lovely bike under all the dried up chicken poop and rust, and a great deal of pleasure to be had rebuilding it.

And maybe the person who placed that $6,500 bid realized all this afterwards and decided to back out of a binding auction purchase.

email (option): cas.vanderwoude@gmail.com

Re: WM20 being auctioned

Howdy Cas,
The rusty WM20, back on ebay is up to $5000 !!!, Maybe price jacking !!!

Dave James

email (option): jamfam@dragnet.com.au

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