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James ML

There is a James ML on milweb im going looking at it on Friday. How would I verify if it’s a real WW11 bike? Cheers......

email (option): austonchamp@gmail.com

Re: James ML

There are some wrong features about that bike. For instance the longer mudguards and center stand are post war items. I can't make out if it has a correct light switch which is unique to the WD ML? the decompresser lever should be the type fitted by James only. Nothing that can't be fixed quite simply in time, provided it has a correct wartime frame!

The Frame number is on the right side lower head-stock and is often quite lightly stamped and should be within the number range ML2 - ML8500
The engine number should read AAA****A
Modified ML's were being sold as civy bikes for a couple of years after the war with frame numbers after 8500.

Plenty more pix and info on request. Ron
Lightweights-233
Lightweights-294

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: James ML

Hi Ron thank you for your swift reply.
Note taken on the points raised I will check the frame number as this is important marker as to it’s originality.
Have you any pictures of the correct light switch and centre stand so I can compare.
Thanks again . John....

Re: James ML

Yes! basically the post war center stand has the cross bars placed differently and 'T' shaped feet instead of 'L' shaped. Half of the T can be cut off to replicate the L which already might have happened to the Milweb bike. The cross bars can be cut off and re-welded in the correct location.
mla

The headlamp switch panel is unique to the ML. The switch positions are Off. T. H. L. as opposed to the usual Off. T. L. H. and the ammeter portion contains the resister for the direct lighting system. Ron
ML-022


ML-021

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: James ML

Cheers again Ron.
Will let you know how I go on on Friday......

Re: James ML

Some good info there from Ron......

Frame number is everything to ascertain genuine WD or not..........anything above frame number ML 8500 is likely to be civilian....remember, the ML was manufactured from 1943 to 1948 to the tune of some 36,000 bikes.......but the bulk (about 30,000) were produced between 1945 and 1948 with only approximately 6353 being WD models prior to 1945.........

The WD ML is consequently rarer than the WD/RE "Flea" although a greater number of ML's survive today simply because the overall design was more substantial than the Flea......

The bike, even if a modified civilian version, would provide a good starting point for a WD model. It must be noted that the WD ML is far more similar to the early post war civilian model than the WD/RE which incorporates numerous differences.......

As Ron points out, the bike has civilian "long" mudguards fitted. The WD version used the same 'guards but substantially cut-down, not for weight-saving but to enhance stowage capability, so they could indeed be modified........the blackout mask is incorrect too, lacking the pilot light aperture (it should be a standard 1942-45 DU42 type) but again this could be modified.............

The centre stand is the post-war civilian version that improved upon the earlier wartime design......again, this can be modified........

I note that the frame also has the small "clip" fitted to the frame to secure the centre stand when on the move........this would worry me as this feature was only fitted to post-war versions so check that frame number carefully ! It is possible that some very late WD versions had this clip fitted but as a general rule it shouldn't be there nor the pair of threaded holes to attach such........

Headlight switch as mentioned by Ron is unique to the ML, having the "L" and "H" positions reversed.......although a Lucas item, it does not have "Lucas" on the switch face.........aside from this, the principal difference between this ML switch and the usual WD model is the central rotor to operate the contacts.......needless to say these ML-only switches are hen's teeth.......

Handlebar controls are another problem......the throttle is a standard Amal WD item but the brake/clutch levers and the decompressor lever are again unique to the ML......the good news here is that the same were also fitted to the early civilian models with the exception of the decompressor which was deleted as unnecessary post-war with the cylinder head incorporating a blanking plug.........I note this particular bike has the spark plug (an 18mm) and the decompressor reversed.....the HT lead should also incorporate an immobiliser, resistor and a rather large "bell shape" Lodge plug cap..........

If a civilian model, compared to a genuine WD example, this should affect the value accordingly.........a decent civilian ML nowadays would be around the 3K mark whilst a genuine WD example at least double that..............it all very much depends on what you seek....!

Re: James ML

Thank You Steve.
All this is invaluable information.
I will post tomorrow levying you and Ron know how I went on.
Cheers John.

Re: James ML

Out of interest, I came across these pictures which show wartime ML's to more of the civy spec. (Long mudguards, even speedo, civy air filter and number plates etc ) I knew there were some prototypes and Reading in O&M I see there were 12 prototypes based on the pre war model, but even these are quoted as having a shorter rear mudguard. I've also been reliably informed that at least one example has been noted with it's original contract plate riveted to a long guard?

Steve have you got any knowledge of these ML's? Cheers Ron

James-ML-28-10-1943-long-mudguards
Long-mudguards

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: James ML

Been to see the bike
Frame number ML1362
Engine number AAA 25313A
Nice James toolKit in a round canvas bag in the tool box.
So decided to buy it.
Any tips as to measurement to reduce the front and rear mudguards and the centre stand would be helpful.
Thanks to everybody who gave me tips and advise. The people on this forum are really the best........

email (option): austonchamp@gmail.com

Re: James ML

Congrats on your purchase ! Definitely an ex-WD bike on account of the frame number..........

First contract, delivered to the Army around mid-1943...........when new, the bike would have originally been finished in SCC No.2 Brown by the factory.......this included the entire engine assembly.......

I suspect that this one may have been dealer-rebuilt after the war (as many were) and the longer mudguards fitted, along with the later stand, controls, etc. If you have the original log-book it may well state "ex-WD", "Rebuilt" plus give the date of first registration........

I can measure the correct length of the original WD mudguards in a day or so's time when back home.......

It might be a good idea to keep the later civilian stand that's fitted. They're more practical and stronger than the earlier WD type....I've managed to bend both of mine on my two ML's whilst starting them on the stand...!!!

As for the ML brake/clutch levers, they are both identical but difficult to find nowadays.......I managed to find a couple of sets via Ebay doing an extensive search under "autocycles", "bicycles", etc.......the last pair I bought very cheaply too were described as "vintage bicycle levers taken off an old BSA push bike".....maybe, but they were the correct ML items...........same with the unique decompressor lever/assembly............

Best source for many repro James ML parts is Terry or Drew at "Metal Magic"............

Re - the toolkit.......can I ask when you get the chance could you possibly provide a few photos of the kit and, particularly, the tool-bag complete with measurements ? Regarding the bag, I hope to make a few up but need some images and measurements first.....thanks !

Re: James ML

"Out of interest, I came across these pictures which show wartime ML's to more of the civy spec. (Long mudguards, even speedo, civy air filter and number plates etc ) I knew there were some prototypes and Reading in O&M I see there were 12 prototypes based on the pre war model, but even these are quoted as having a shorter rear mudguard. I've also been reliably informed that at least one example has been noted with it's original contract plate riveted to a long guard?

Steve have you got any knowledge of these ML's? Cheers Ron"

Indeed Ron.......the ML shown is a prototype/pre-production machine, in fact the same example as tested/demonstrated by Arthur Bourne to the military alongside a prototype/pre-production RE Flea........

Little is known about the 12 or so test models, but the result of these tests/trials resulted in a number of recommendations, one of which was that the mudguards were to be shortened on production models to ease storage and to prevent damage to these flimsy components........

I've seen several ex-WD ML's that were dealer/factory rebuilt between 1945 and 1954.......part of said rebuild was to fit parts necessary to make the WD-ML suitable for use on the public road, including longer mudguards, revised lighting, number-plates and a speedo.........it's entirely possible that on restoring these machines to WD colours many of the post-war fittings were subsequently retained.......

One of my own ML's was noted in the old log book as "ex WD - Rebuilt"......it retained most of it's original parts, but had a speedo fitted to the handlebar tightening lever and a drive sprocket bolted onto the front wheel spokes...it was also painted maroon over the original WD finish.......in this instance the original short mudguards had been retained, but the rear "extended" by bolting-on a section of mudguard to accomodate a rear number plate.....it had been attached via the WD tail light bolt holes and on removal the original contract plate was still attached to the end of the 'guard........

Re: James ML

Hi Steve.
I will post pictures of the tool kit bag along with measurements.
Have you any pictures of the proper leavers then I know what to look out for.
Cheers John.

email (option): austonchamp@gmail.com

Re: James ML tool bag

Hi Steve.
Some pictures and measurements for the round tool bag.
Bag a Width 7 inch
Bag Diameter 3.5 inch
Total length around the bag 13 inch
The bag is bound around and is 3/8 inch
The side loops on each end are 1/2 wide.
Just realised I don’t know how to post pictures yet.......
I’ll read the How to post.
Cheers John

Re: James ML tool bag picture I hope....

78B8CDDA-0352-4211-8D13-B91EFDCB38A6


3A6FE883-6B2A-41A2-A7C1-0392F6690073


2B4FC5BF-8FE9-4509-BB89-7CD83AEE5710

919D8EC3-7F0E-49E9-8FC2-36E7ED194E4A
658C5DED-9F56-4670-952E-DBBCB8BAC7AA

5E332DAB-55B9-4C72-939C-9541AADB1B62

I have duplicates of 57 and 56 if anybody is interested in buying or swapping for other numbers.

Re: James ML tool bag picture I hope....

That is a very nice touch....I'm jealous:yum: Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: James ML tool bag picture I hope....

Hello,
great find!
many thanks for the pictures and dimensions, i think another "postwar" or a very used large pack need to be cutted... and oiling my old Singer sewing machine :yum:
if it could help, i've got a lever ( brake or clutch) but without the locking loop, a good one in brass, not the alloy one, also have a tyer lever, and some small tools to complete the bag.
and in memory maybe i've got a last Lodge spark plug cap ( one of my replicas)
email me of forum for picturesif interest it's more simple
for those who are interest about maybe i've got the solution to convert a "normal" 4 position switch to a James ML switch... just need an original to silicone mold it.:relaxed:

email (option): leger-arnaud@wanadoo.fr

Re: James ML tool bag picture I hope....

Hello.
Good Morning.
I am very interested in the Replica Lodge plug cap.
Maybe we could continue the conversation via email.
Cheers John.

email (option): austonchamp@gmail.com

Re: James ML tool bag picture I hope....

Arnaud, I have just sent you your Kickstarter, and also my ML lightswitch, to use as a sample for making some replica's.
Let me know when it arrives please.

Here's some pictures, it's not only the top that is different, but with a "normal" interior, it will also work I guess.









If there's interest, I can take pictures of the handlebar levers.

Cheers,

Lex

email (option): welbike@welbiXX.net

Re: Levers

Hi please post some pictures of all the leavers so I know what to look out for.
Cheers John

email (option): austonchamp@gmail.com

Re: Levers

Johndep
Hi please post some pictures of all the leavers so I know what to look out for.
Cheers John
John, just emailed you a shed load of detail ML photos !

The WD mudguard measurements are as follows:

Rear mudguard (tip to tip) measures 105cm. The rear is only cropped at the tail end, not the front (gearbox end) which is the same as the civvy type. The rearmost bracket will need making or adapting.......all brackets on ML mudguards are attached using 8mm (dome head) solid rivets......

Front mudguard. Finished length is 86cm tip to tip. This is cut 1/2 inch from the front and rear stay bracket measuring at the sides.....best method is to make a card template from the existing mudguard tips and then transfer these to the guard itself using a marker pen or tape.....then cut with a disc and use a grinder to finish off !

Regards, Steve

Re: Levers

Wow Steve.
Thank You very much for the photos and mudguard measurements.
Love your collection of bikes.......
The bike levers look the same as on my parabike.
I’ve a way to go to make mine anything like yours.
Cheers John...

email (option): austonchamp@gmail.com

ML switch

Chaps, I am still looking for an original ML headlight switch for my ML if anyone ever finds one. I also had a new old stock air filter which I paid a huge amount of money for at an Autojumble but it went missing so I’m looking for another. Cheers JT

Re: ML switch

John Tinley
Chaps, I am still looking for an original ML headlight switch for my ML if anyone ever finds one. I also had a new old stock air filter which I paid a huge amount of money for at an Autojumble but it went missing so I’m looking for another. Cheers JT
John, Terry (Metal Magic) made some replica Villiers air cleaners using one of my originals as a pattern....they are absolutely identical but incorporate a slightly improved filter mesh (not visible from the outside)........as for the name plates, Arnaud made some outstanding copies........worth contacting both.....

I suspect Arnaud will come up trumps with a repro ML switch...his work is that good ! However, originals do occasionally turn up, usually mis-described as a "BSA M20", "WD 4-position switch", etc............

Re: James ML tool bag picture I hope....

Hi. What does the clutch/ brake lever consist of is it just the lever or the lever plus bracket less the loop?
Cheers John

email (option): austonchamp@gmail.com

Re: James ML tool bag picture I hope....

I'm not sure what you mean by loop? Ron
Lightweights-436


email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: James ML tool bag picture I hope....

Jondep
Hi. What does the clutch/ brake lever consist of is it just the lever or the lever plus bracket less the loop?
Cheers John
Clutch and front brake lever assemblies are identical (not "handed")........they comprise of lever (solid casting), mounting bracket and securing clamp at the rear.......this is held on with two small screws top and bottom that fit into a strange circular, conical, spigotted nut that has one edge cut off the circle to prevent rotation when fitting the screw........all parts were dull chrome plated.......

A point of note, is that James continued to fit these levers to the post-war civilian ML although now bright chrome plated, and from 1947 onwards the lever blades were slightly longer........correct WD lever blades measure approximately 4 & 1/2 inches long......

When looking for these, beware of similar vintage bicycle lever assemblies.......at first glance they can look similar but aren't, in many cases being a different profile and smaller than the correct ML fittings......in particular, items made by Raleigh Industries for bicycles are often confused with ML parts...........

Re: James ML tool bag picture I hope....

I can see now that my post was a little cryptic.
It was in reply to Arnraud about a brass lever he had that did not include the loop.

email (option): austonchamp@gmail.com

Re: James ML tool bag picture I hope....

I can see now that my post was a little cryptic.
It was in reply to Arnraud about a brass lever he had that did not include the loop.

email (option): austonchamp@gmail.com

Re: James ML

What are the chances of anybody having a wire wound resister for the headlamp switch????

email (option): austonchamp@gmail.com

Re: James ML

Both of my ML's have the original wire-wound resistor fitted........it's basically a plastic/fibre-ish affair with a few windings of copper wire around it, plus two brass terminals to attach the electrical wires......it's held into the blanking plate by a long "cotter pin" type thing with a split pin on the end.........

However, on my Flea I didn't have the original wire-wound ceramic resistor that fits onto the light switch so instead used a modern-type resistor rated at 5000 ohms.....this is a tiny thing, similar to a cigarette filter with a wire sticking out of each end of it which can be attached or soldered onto the terminals.....cheap, cheerful, can't be seen once fitted and it works.......!! Main purpose of the resistor is to prevent blowing the bulbs...........

Re: James ML

Cheers Steve.
Yes I wondered if a modern resister would do.
I’ll just have to make/ find something to make a Top so it looks right extermnally.
If some one could give me the dimensions of the Top Part I found more one.

email (option): austonchamp@gmail.com

Re: James ML

Sorry for late answer, very lot of work before holidays and very hot weather!! now on holidays for 3 weeks :slightly_smiling_face:
i discover and don't know why i make a mistake in description of the lever, it's not a "loop" but the securing clamp..:face_with_rolling_eyes:and the specific screw and nut
it's a chromed one but brass under it. if it could help ( same dimensions you mention Steve).
i Email you tomorow with pictures

email (option): leger-arnaud@wanadoo.fr

Re: James ML

I've got a switch and resister off a ML, it's on a headlamp which I need to keep for a 3HW project, it's at my dads house where I keep some bikes and spares, will pop round and take a photo later today and put on here.

Re: James ML

Steve S, very interested if the switch is available. John

Re: James ML

Some photos of the ML switch and resister.


Re: James ML

Hi Steve, just what an am looking for. Do you have a price in mind. I will almost certainly have a correct WD one that I could put into the deal for you. Cheers John

Re: James ML

Switch has now been sold to Ron Pier, will keep a look out at auto jumbles for these type of switch/resisters for you.

Re: James ML resistor

Hi. Am correct or not in thinking you have a spare resistor for sale?
Cheers John.

email (option): austonchamp@gmail.com

Re: James ML resistor

I have one of these switches. OFF-T-H=L and no lucas mark. It has paint on the bakelite and no dial. No idea if it is an expensive part, but I'd be interested in exchanging it for something equally as rare for my '41 WM20. I'm in Hawaii so USA shipping would be $7 but to Aus and UK, it will be a lot more.

email (option): cas.vanderwoude@gmail.com

Re: James ML resistor

I’ll Email you.
O.K.
john depledge.

email (option): austonchamp@gmail.com

Re: James ML

Steve,

I am in the US and so I have zero chance of turning up parts here for my James ML WD, which was made in 1943. Ron has helped me immensely, in finding parts and sources for things regarding this bike but I still need a switch and resistor for my James. If you keep your eye out for one, I would pay a £100 finders fee to you for finding me these parts. I am in Tucson Arizona and would like to finish this bike out to 100% if I can. I would much prefer buying you a pint for locating it but the time and space paradox makes it impractical, so money is the next best option.

Cheers,
David

email (option): animas7@aol.com

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