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Re: WD colours

Were paints actually used in WW2 that consistent to worry overmuch?

Re: WD colours

I guess from the factory they probably complied with the laid down specs...So, if your after an 'ex factory' look on a complete restoration it's nice to have the right colour...

A different story for a machine presented as 'in service' though...There is plenty of anecdotal evidence of different paints being mixed if there was a temporary shortage of the right colour...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: WD colours

The official colours were very much made to rigid formulas and the components only issued as needed. There were obviously differences of shade and weathering, but that doesn't make two different colours possible - only pigments which were in the formula could be present.

Certainly, with Khaki Green, it's hard to achieve the 'brown in some light, green in others' effect but it's immediately obvious when it's right.

Re: WD colours

As these colours were made to a rigid formula, I find it very odd that KG3 is not listed in BS colours when all the other WD colours are, and no one has a proper formula. Surely there must be records of these formulas from one of the companies commissioned to make this paint?

email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk

Re: WD colours

There are quite a few original records that I would like to see that may or may not still exist, the problem with wartime paints is they became obsolete after the war, unified NATO colours and anti radar paints meant that there was very little need to keep old formulas.

The national archives probably hold board of trade contract information on companies supplying paint by year but if its anything like the WW1 badge info which has a list of suppliers of "metal badges" some of which were probably buttons, it doesn't help much, plus you would have to travel to Kew to view it and know what to ask for.

There is a good chance that ICI supplied some wartime paint, they have since been bought out but they may have put there archive somewhere?

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Re: WD colours

Rik
Bearing in mind the trouble that Mike Starmer went to, with various makes of modelling paint, it would rather surprise me if it was possible to get them 'bang-on' with just two or three RAL colours - it would be pushing co-incidence a little too far. Still, if they're fairly close then it's a good thing as so many restored MVs are miles off at the moment.
Why ?
Remember that a RAL colour is not a primary colour, it could be a mix of a dozen or more pigments.
I really doubt that the colours were any where nears as consistant as lots like to make out.
Unles it was fully vitrified enamel the colours would fade.
Then a tiny variation in the size of the pigment particles will also change the colour.
The pigments by & large were metalic oxides which are not chemically stable or minerals which themselves vary in colour as you go through any particular deposit.

I can not see the RAF sending 20 fighters back to the factory because the colour was not quite right.
Then there is the method of application.
Only parts that are fully vitrified or dipped would be exactly the same.
After that you get variations caused by the painter.
No 2 spray or brush painters will apply the paint exactly the same depth so no two painters will produce exactly the same coloured finish.
This was something tat plagued the metals fabrication industry till electrolytic spray painting became standard practice.

email (option): bsansw1@tpg.com.au

Re: WD colours

I understand what you're saying, Trevor...but many of us who have handled a lot of original parts can immediately recognise the shades, even when weathered.

The trouble is though that many owners of military vehicles use the excuse 'There was a War on' in order to justify painting their vehicles in any old fucking shade of green that they feel like. Usually something that belonged on a Suffolk Colt or a modern MV.

I don't really understand why anyone who doesn't critically try to replicate the original colours even bothers to join in these discussions. Presumably it makes them feel better if everyone has a military vehicle that would look more at home as part of a fairground ride ?

Re: WD colours

Anyone can select any colour they like to paint their bike...After all not everyone is even trying to complete a restoration that is as close to original as practical/possible...

However, as I said in my previous post, if anyone is trying to do an 'ex factory' restoration adherence to an original specification is a must....
On that basis some decision has to be made as to what is close to the original colour and the information in the original post does help towards that end and is therefore useful....

If we are to constantly question the varying molecular make up of paint and how much was applied, the exact dimensional tolerances that were applied throughout the war etc. etc. then the possibilities become infinite and the specification impossible to determine...

Somewhere you have to accept, based on best information and surviving specifications, how it actually was!!...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: WD colours

I've been enjoying my fairground ride for very close on 50 years and I intend to continue to do so!
Richard

Re: WD colours

I looked at the group's technical specs page and found this on color- http://www.wdbsa.nl/colour.htm - which I thought, while helpful, is a bit unwieldy. These days with a HEX code or RGB value you can go to any professional paint shop and have an exact match mixed. I did a little digging into the BS381C colors and found the following four:

BS381C 220 Olive Green
HEX 405018 RGB 64 80 24
http://www.perbang.dk/rgb/405018/

BS381C 223 Middle Bronze Green
HEX 404828 RGB 64 72 40
http://www.perbang.dk/rgb/404828/

BS381C 224 Deep Bronze Green
HEX 304020 RGB 48 64 32
http://www.perbang.dk/rgb/304020/

BS381C 298 Olive Drab
HEX 404820 RGB 64 72 32
http://www.perbang.dk/rgb/404820/

My question for the group is how close these might be to the original War Office specs. and if so what dates, makes, theaters, etc. they might apply. Other colors? Or if there is already resource online with this information which I couldn't find?

EDIT- I just found this chart which seems to disagree with the information above- https://www.e-paint.co.uk/BS381%20Colourchart.asp It would be nice to know which colors were used where and when.

email (option): moatjon [ at ] aol.com

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