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Census number & AoS

I was browsing some classified adverts and came across a 1941 WM20.
The census number seems odd, to me. Showing as 'CA752'. I thought (other than Canadian) census numbers were just 'C' and then some numbers? What does CA mean?

Also the AoS number is 79, which I struggled to find. 6th Armoured Recce was the only thing using that number.
Anyone have any info?
Thanks
Mark

email (option): mark_richards37@aol.com

Re: Census number & AoS

How genuine and original do you think that census number is? I've seen vehicles marked with Dad's old army number, a phone number and the wife/girlfriend/gay lovers birthday.:thinking_face: Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: Census number & AoS

WD Serials 1 - 5028 were allocated to impressed vehicles. If it existed, 'C' would indeed have indicated Canadian service and 'A' would have been an ambulance. Any chance of seeing the photo so we can all have a laugh ?

Re: Census number & AoS

The number 79 is mostly provost or CMP.

Regards, ramon😎😎

email (option): noahlevi6@hotmail.com

Re: Census number & AoS

Rik
WD Serials 1 - 5028 were allocated to impressed vehicles. If it existed, \\\\\\\'C\\\\\\\' would indeed have indicated Canadian service and \\\\\\\'A\\\\\\\' would have been an ambulance. Any chance of seeing the photo so we can all have a laugh ?
Here you go:

email (option): mark_richards37@aol.com

Re: Census number & AoS

The bike appears to be in post war configuration, by which time the 'C' census numbers were dropped and the 2 letter-2 number-2 letter type registration number would have been on the number plate.

If those markings on the tank are indeed ex army, my guess is that the CA number is just some sort of unit numbering. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: Census number & AoS

The arm of service serial lacking a background colour is out of context - Maybe the owner preserved the original and not the background ? Even where 'Green' was used, it was a different colour from the basic vehicle finish.

The other numbering looks more like a different type of reference. Maybe a stock or stores inventory number ?

Re: Census number & AoS

Thanks for the feedback. It's actually for sale, so I might enquire further and see. I'm after something that I can do some research on, rather than buying something completely researched, if that makes sense - so this caught my eye.
What are the post war changes that are immediately visible, if you don't mind me asking. I'm still new to this!

email (option): mark_richards37@aol.com

Re: Census number & AoS

Rik
The arm of service serial lacking a background colour is out of context - Maybe the owner preserved the original and not the background ? Even where 'Green' was used, it was a different colour from the basic vehicle finish.

The other numbering looks more like a different type of reference. Maybe a stock or stores inventory number ?
Thanks, will see if the vendor has more info.

email (option): mark_richards37@aol.com

Re: Census number & AoS

My bike has the frame number as it's C number put on by a previous owner.....

email (option): stinkypete80@hotmail.com

Re: Census number & AoS

If it's a post war Army rebuild, the first and most obvious clue is the use of NATO green paint which usually seems to include the crankcase and gearbox, and often the whole engine and magdyno are painted, and always a rear number plate with more modern bigger lamp. Depending how long it stayed in service, other post-war mods will soon appear, like dome headlamp glass, pressed steel levers, 60 watt dynamo with MCR2 regulator. The war time four position switch and CZ27 ammeter will disappear, usually as a result of a complete change from the DU42 headlamp to the post war MU42 etc etc.

It is very seldom that anyone can research the history of their bike apart from being able to usually work out it's census number or if you're lucky enough to come across any unit markings under the layers of paint. Ron

PS that bike looks like an extremely nice project bike with little to do or find to restore it back to factory or wartime spec.

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: Census number & AoS

['The war time four position switch and CZ27 ammeter will disappear, usually as a result of a complete change from the DU42 headlamp to the post war MU42 etc etc.'..]

Post war MU42 replacement headlamps retained the four position WD light switch...I've had a few NOS examples...

Post war standard army colour was 'Deep Bronze Green' gloss so the Nato paint was probably applied by a later owner on 'civvy street'...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: Census number & AoS

Quite right! NATO green did come later. But I've read that there were problems with paint in the 50's and thousands of gallons were sold off cheap by the army and that gloss colours were not deemed suitable in theaters of action and Olive drab, Service brown and matt black were again applied. I've also seen REME rebuilt M20 engines complete with mag all painted matt green and put into a wooden crate. (Reserve stock?) Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: Census number & AoS

The wheels of bureaucracy grind slowly it seems...

There were problems with vehicle paint finishes through the late 1950s and into the '60s and also a realisation that gloss finishes might not be the best thing in the Cold War era where a serious conflict was considered a real possibility...This was particularly noted after a large Nato exercise in 1969...

However, apart from limited use of matt paints by some frontline units as an emergency solution, official trials of matt paint alternatives were not carried out until 1969-70 with the results reviewed in '71 and followed by a general introduction over the next 5-6 years...(further slowed down by the additional requirement for an anti infra red capability)....

This pretty much precludes the application of Nato green to M20s as by 1970 the vast majority of them had been disposed of...

The latest confirmed M20 still in service that I have heard of was 1971...An ex Terratorial told me he took his test on one in that year. The current service bike at that time was the B40...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: Census number & AoS

There is a growing trend as time goes on for people "finding" an older restoration and wrongly assuming it to be "original" military finish of some period or other.

The fact that the last M20s where still being sold off in the early 1970s after some enthusiasts had already begun restoring machines to military spec doesn't help the situation.

Personally I like my machines in wartime spec so I would repaint this bike if I owned it either way.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Re: Census number & AoS

I know of a very well restored M20 which is in its post war BAOR markings...Basic finish is gloss green with MP markings applied...

The bike was rebuilt by an ex MP who served at that time and it is in the finish and markings applied by his unit at that time. He even has photos of the M20 he rode in Germany to verify that fact.....I can't really see anything wrong with that and don't feel there is any more problem with presenting an M20 that way than there would (could) be with a 'wartime' finish...

It is really more about taking the time to get it right whichever era you choose (assuming of course that it bothers you)...

I certainly agree though, that the tendency to assume any military bike as presented/found is in its original markings is at best a leap of faith...There really needs to be some facts to validate the assumption...

In the case of the bike that is the subject of this post IMO the Nato olive drab pretty much precludes 'original finish'...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: Census number & AoS

Fascinating stuff chaps. Reading you guys on this forum, has really ignited my enthusiasm again, after taking a hiatus from searching to finish a sideline car build project.

To add a bit more flesh (from the advert) whilst I await some responses from the seller, the DU42 headlight is stated as being 'correct' but with post war glass. Solid levers and original canvas grips, Steering damper fitted as it should be (what does that mean?). Original bum pad, 4 position lucas switch, amp meter and military speedo (smiths). Ribbed rear mudguard and post war number plate.

A couple of questions:

How old were you when you 'got into' or at least owned your first war bike? Just out of curiosity. I wish I'd have started a decade ago. 35 now :(

The cut out tank + pannier set is normal for a '41 - as this would have been converted a couple of years later in service? Was this true of all wM20's pre '44 or so?

email (option): mark_richards37@aol.com

Re: Census number & AoS

:smiley: :smiley: I bought my Jeep in early 1986 when you were not much more than 2 years old Mark,:scream: followed in 1987/8 by my Morris, Tilly and WM20. Still got them and more besides!

The panniers and pillion were certainly being fitted at some point in 1941, along I think with the change from the 'Deluxe' balloon tank to the slim tank. The DU 142 8" headlamp and pre war BSA levers were probably deleted during that year too.

The cut off tank with Vokes filter was being fitted as standard late in the war. However the cut off tank had been around for a long time as they were fitted to the early India Office bikes, but I don't know how often or when they were fitted to bikes destined for dusty conditions.

Henk's collection of pictures can often give a clue to when the changes took place.

Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: Census number & AoS

Surely the tanks, like a lot of equipment got reused from wrecks, swapped during overhaul and repair work etc. My bike is a 1940, demobbed in 69 and has a cut out tank for a Vokes filter and pannier racks, although the rear mudguard stays have bolts brazed/welded to them, so that could be an earlier owners modification......

email (option): stinkypete80@hotmail.com

Re: Census number & AoS

My impression is that there were a lot of NOS cutaway tanks in ordnance stores at the end of the war. Probably logical as they were gearing up for a longer war against Japan and all machines had to be 'Suitable for the Tropics'....Huge quantities of new parts seem to have been used on the 1950s 'National Service' rebuilds along with 1950s Lucas supersession parts.

If the restorer is interested in portraying a particular period then it is necessary to do some research first. Just using a collection of BSA WM20 parts will not of itself produce a machine that could realistically have served...and if looking for a NW Europe effect, most of the vehicles which left for France were fairly new...and Brown !

Re: Census number & AoS

Same thing with the postwar M20 Westwood petrol caps, they are being sold now as "early war" how ridiculous!! and people on Facebook even believe this!



Cheers,

Lex

email (option): welbike@welbi(XX).net (think about this!!)

Re: Census number & AoS

Sorry for making you feel old Ron! Be interested to see any information on the Jeep and your fleet though.

The seller has responded. There are no other documents or history with the bike, other than the V5C.
So taking it on, would mean doing my own research - which is fine. Presuming from Frame/Engine number I might be able to get at least the contract info, but how much further can you go? key card? Possible DVLA previous owners and contacting them...

At £6,850 I'm also not sure on pricing, is this about the norm for something of this ilk?

Thanks for all of the comments thus far - from everyone.

email (option): mark_richards37@aol.com

Re: Census number & AoS

I was going to suggest looking at Stuart Bray's site for an idea of top end prices, but I see that it's him who is selling that bike.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdwOzd-eLe0&feature=youtu.be

Bear in mind, Stuart is a dealer and obviously has to earn a living so his prices will undoubtably be higher than a private sale, but his bikes are usually fettled and shown ridden by brother Pete, and there could be some haggling room? There's not many places you can see a selection of WD bikes for sale.

I doubt you would ever know it's army history other than what is shown in the ledgers and key cards. The usual practice if you were going to put markings on it would be to pick a unit that you might have an interest in, possibly via a family member who served with that unit and use it as a tribute bike.

Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: Census number & AoS

That is one of Stuart's bikes and I would of thought hel have all the work done to it to make it run and ride as it should and a 20 mile test ride by his mate Pete, also I think any repro crap hel throw away, and get the bike looking period whatever time in the war or even post war. Like some bikes, if it don't sell he'd just break it

Barry

email (option): mrsbfuller@hotmail.co.uk

Re: Census number & AoS

No field stand, bags and Y straps or sump guard, post war dynamo...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: Census number & AoS

Do you think it's a post war dynamo Ian? I can see the short dynamo brush cover with the exposed screw.Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: Census number & AoS

I can't see the copper plate on the end cover as on the WD type...Early post war dynamos (or at least the end covers) didn't have that piece...

Saying that though, it's not absolutely clear in the photo...

Personally I'm having trouble getting my head around current values/prices...To my mind, I still think you should get a full set of parts for that sort of money...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: Census number & AoS

Well I can't disagree about the prices Ian. But if the bike is missing some of it's war time original parts, then you can't wave a wand and make them miraculously appear. The trouble is, if a bike is worth 6 or 8 Grand, then a seller will still see it as being worth that despite having these "minor" parts missing which can then cost another £1000 or more when you can eventually find them.

It's the age old theory of 'Buy it cheaper and slowly do it up to eek the cost out' With also the masochistic pleasure of hunting for the correct parts and the joy of fitting them when you do find them.

Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: Census number & AoS

It does have a 'short' dynamo. Probably not the correct 200354 end cap with central oiler cover though.

http://www.stuart-bray-motorcycles.co.uk/bikes/military-bikes/bsa-wm20-1941-unrestored-all-original-tin-v5c-registered/

Oddly the market doesn't seem to show much difference between a top level restoration with original parts and a 'looks tidy from 25 yards' type of machine. I'm puzzled how this could be down to ignorance in the internet age so maybe most of the punters simply don't care which works in favour of the dealers who can buy low and sell high.

As Ron says, it costs a lot to put these details right...for me, as for him, there is much pleasure in searching for parts and the contact that it brings...but the pleasure is diminished by paying over the oddds for the basic project.

What are, realistically, the chances of buying a machine of this age and having something that would maybe ride a couple of thousand miles per annum over five years without any major expanditure / strip down ? I'd find it difficult to buy without budgeting for an engine and gearbox rebuild...that was the philosophy that I had when buying five year old stuff in the 1970s and the experience of myself and others since hasn't really caused me to revise that view point.

Of course, we've all pushed the price of parts up so high by building almost unrestorable incomplete projects that even basket cases have become expensive...at least a complete bike is a decent starting point and maybe it now costs £8000 - £10000 to have a decent well-running ex-WD motorcycle whichever route one takes to achieve that ?

Re: Census number & AoS

I don't think there is a cheap route to a good bike...The problem when everything is more or less the same price is how to sort out the 'wheat from the chaff', particularly for less experienced buyers....

Without X ray vision you don't really know what you are buying beyond an assessment of what you can see...In my experience, helpfully, that frequently gives pretty good clue to what you can't see....

The general standard of bikes on offer out there is not very good IMO...

Very recently I looked over an M20 for someone which was described as 'stunning'..If they meant I would be stunned by the high price, the fact it wasn't running properly and that it had plenty of other other issues with its condition and specification then perhaps the description was accurate...:laughing:

As ever it's a case of buyer beware, be patient, do your homework before buying and brace yourself for some remedial work before you can go further than the end of the road with confidence...Ian





email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

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