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Hi all ye WD freinds :)
Just wondering if there are any photos out there of 1942 WM20's in concourse and or original condition that are reliable to work from? Google images are great, but I'm not sure of the finer points of detail between years, so hard to know if the images are correctly named or not. For example - when did the rear go to a rib-less design?
Any photos greatly appreciated - I did a search but didn't seem to be any specific ones on here thru the search. :)
email (option): marty.whyte@gmail.com
Hi Marty,
Let me know your frame number and I'll see what photos I have that are close to your frame number. I have loads of photos and also quite a few factory photos of WM20's. Best send me an email.
Henk
email (option): ahum@quicknet.nl
To expand on Henk's comments, it's not really possible to categorise wartime WD motorcycles by 'model year' and although individual contracts each had a unique Spare Parts List and should theoretically have comprised identical machines, research has made it clear that the books were printed well in advance and that changes and updates were made as soon as practicable, often mid-contract.
However, it is also clear that after an initial shaky start, by the end of 1940, WD serial (census) numbers were following and linked to chassis numbers (this wasn't true of all manufacturers but certainly of BSA and Norton). This means that, as Henk indicates, we can usually 'bracket' a given machine and arrive at a fairly good idea of the original specification. It's rare that there are grey areas or vague change-overs. Once a change was made, it seems to have been continued with.
If Henk calculates your serial number then we can all have a look in our photo collections.
Thank you :) I see the difficulty with catagorisation now.
My frame number is WM20.59362 and, according to Henk's dating cert, should have the Serial of C4556643 from the factory, despatched 30-04-1942.
It was sent to Australia, and given the number 39052.
I have Henk's DVD of infinite information, which is great, and he has many photos of the period '42-'45, but was wanting some side on kind of photos like the one at the top of the forum showing the detail. Even the parts lists are not the entire answer as you say, and especially as many parts are not illustrated.
Cheers.
email (option): marty.whyte@gmail.com
Hi Marty
As a matter of interest, do your frame & engine numbers match? Mine do, which I'm given to understand is unusual.
Sorry, can't help with definitive photos.
Bob, No, unfortunately frame and engine do not match. I started with a '41 engine and '42 frame, but lucked on a '42 engine yesterday and grabbed it. Not a long way apart, but as I understand, engines and frames were very much swapped around during the war at any rate, so I'm happy with the same year. :)
email (option): marty.whyte@gmail.com
Hi Marty,
There is quite a good picture of a 1942 bike in the Technical section, electrical equipment of this website. Sensusnumber of this bike starts with 4552..... It still has got the horn underneath the saddle so I guess it is an early 1942 model.
Regards, Ramon 😎😎
Hi Marty,
There is quite a good picture of a 1942 bike in the Technical section, electrical equipment of this website. Sensusnumber of this bike starts with 4552..... It still has got the horn underneath the saddle so I guess it is an early 1942 model.
Regards, Ramon 😎😎
Hi Marty
Yes, engines & frames were swapped around a lot. I'm a bit mystified as to why mine match.
Marty, have you downloaded the high-res images from the State Library of Victoria site (I think it's that one)...Several views of rooms full of newly arrived M20s - some with original British Ordnance serials and others overpainted with their new ARNs.
The photos are so good that you can zoom right in and even make sure that you have the right type of dust on yours :-)
Hi Rik.
What search criteria did you use to search photos from Vic State Library?🔍
email (option): don@moeng.com.au
I was going to say "Buggered if I can remember" but I've found them again - it's worth searching just under 'motorcycle' though in case they've added anything else.
I seem to remember that there is a bit of a trick to downloading them as large files so you may have to play around a bit.
http://search.slv.vic.gov.au/primo_library/libweb/action/dlSearch.do?dscnt=1&onCampus=false&query=any%2Ccontains%2Cmotorcycle%20BSA&bulkSize=20&tab=default_tab&group=ALL&vid=MAIN&institution=SLVPRIMO&fromLogin=true&search_scope=Everything
Thanks very much Rik, hopefully I can find a pic of my bike there.
Cheers.
email (option): don@moeng.com.au
Matty
Thanks for your thoughts about my matching numbers. Should this be the case & considering the bike's condition when I got it, I suspect that it was sold to one uncaring owner who hammered it thoroughly before chucking it in the back of the shed or something. The head had a few stumps where fins had once been,& it's had forks from another bike fitted at one stage, the longer ones as discussed on this forum some time back & had the remains of a green colour on the tank (not military green).
Crikey! Thanks so much Rik. Those photos are gold! :)
email (option): marty.whyte@gmail.com
Looking at Henk's frame numbers page there are a lot of M20s in Australia and New Zealand still with matching numbers, so it would appear the system worked differently there than in Europe.
I suspect its all down to numbers, down under a machine came in for repair and it was the only BSA needing work so it was fixed and sent out again.
In the UK a quantity of BSAs all arrived every day and a production line of repair was set up with one team removing engines another fixing them and yet another fitting the first available engine into the machine with the top priority.
Rob
email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk
Rob
Thanks for your thoughts.
I'm interested to learn I'm not alone in having matching numbers. I've based my ideas on the UK notion that numbers don't match because of workshop attention etc, but a smaller overall number of machines here may've worked out as you say.
email (option): bsansw1@tpg.com.au
email (option): bsansw1@tpg.com.au
['This is one of my sort of gripes about all of the clowns down here who "faithfully" restore an M20 to it's "original war time specification" right down to divisional insignias;- on bikes that never saw 1 second of active service.
But if they come across a military finished bike with a 1945 ( or latter ) number they scream out "FAKE" at the top of their lungs.']
I have long held the view there is an unbalanced concentration on the WW2 period...Personally, I've never seen a WD bike presented in its pre war livery and it is pretty rare to see them presented in post war livery either...Many served in a variety of locations (and conflicts) after WW2 and this was as much part of their past as the wartime period was...
I'm still hoping at some point to purchase a very nice M20 that is in my locality and is in the markings of a BAOR Provost unit, the markings of the unit the current owner served in...If I do get it I certainly won't be repainting it in 'drab' WW2 finishes...Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
Trevor, I stand by my theory. The situation was very different in Great Britain which is very very small compared to Australia which is very very big.
We do know that in Australia in 1942 a vast mechanised army was created to meet the expected Japanese invasion which never came, it was spread around thousands of miles of coastline because the invasion could have been directed anywhere, this invasion scare only lasted a short period before the tide of the war in the pacific began to turn and invasion became very unlikely.
Some vehicles probably did remain unused but many would have been used in training, repairs would have been carried out at many small local depots and MT units rather than a few larger ones which we had in Great Britain, because of the distances involved.
Its interesting that there are M20s in Australia which don't appear in the ledgers, maybe there are some ledgers missing, maybe some crated equipment never got unpacked and recorded or maybe an Australian whose job it was to keep the books up to date missed some out because he didn't know the rules?
Rob
email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk
email (option): bsansw1@tpg.com.au
email (option): bsansw1@tpg.com.au
Wow, you guys have quite an amount of information! Love it.
It amuses me to read that there are 'so many M20's in Australia', and yet, finding parts or, even entire bikes is like looking for a needle in a haystack.
In response to 'restoring to original WW2 livery true to it's history', well, I guess I come under that brand, however, in my neck of the woods, and on my 'old bike rally circuit', there are NO military bikes that get out and about, and so I wanted to build one, and get it out there with my Matchless, to enjoy. I know nothing of its service history, and as the Australian military forces saw fit, all documents of such history were destroyed many moons ago. I'm not a nut and bolt counter, however, I just wanted my bike to be as close as practicable to how it was delivered, for my enjoyment. No other reason.
I'm guessing the perceived overzealous focus on WW2 bikes (certainly not something I see in QLD in Australia) is only due to availability. The exact reason I am doing a WM20 with my limited abilities. A great debate guys! :) Loving all the information :)
email (option): marty.whyte@gmail.com
Marty, it's your bike to do exactly as you want with. If you like the look of a catalogue finish then go for it. My view is that it's a good starting point and it can then age gracefully. I like to keep them 'in period' and my personal niggles are modern pattern bright-chromed handlebar levers and visible pre-insulated electrical connectors.
It's become fashionable of late to slag 'rivet-counters' and worship any form of scruffiness as 'patina'.
Have you checked your numbers through the ARN record books ? You have a damned sight more to go on than in most parts of the world. The books though do only include army registrations and there seem to be no surviving RAAF or RAN records...nor will there be any for governmental organisations which may have received transport as 'essential users'....Fire Brigades etc. in the UK.
If you get the basics right, the details can be changed later - my 16H project took six years of parts hunting and didn't stop then :relaxed:
WDM20s are not uncommon but that doesn't mean there are a lot about. Most people hang on to them and the same goes for spares. If you're planning a long term relationship then you have to buy parts as they become available. You're already on the old bike scene so you'll be aware that it's necessary to become 'known' as looking for stuff and it helps to have NOS parts to swap - often better than offering to buy parts as most of the old buggers with these luxury machines aren't short of a bob or two.:stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
Hi Marty,
Jeff Gordon that is on the forum lives near Brissie. He owns a WDM20 and is in the Military Jeep Club Of Queensland and is on Facebook. Worth a try.
Dave
email (option): jeepfinger@blueyonder.co.uk
Hi Rik,
Thanks for the links to photos above! Great stuff.
I totally agree about the rivet counters and patina lovers. Fashions in any hobby/industry come and go. Personally not a huge fan of OWNING a rusty old bike covered in WD40 that runs. Also, not a huge fan of OWNING a concourse bike. I ride my bikes in rally's regularily and love enjoying them. I have just about finished my engine and paint 're-restoration' after buying a 'restored' Matchless. Got the painted tank, oil tank and toolbox back this week, and am now not sure if I want to ride it! ahahaha. Looks too pretty. Where as my other Matchless, looks very presentable, but has stone chips, a bit of oil build up in hard to get to areas, and, I just had to pull the motor apart in the paddock at a rally on the weekend, to fix a stuck top ring, scored bore and blown head gasket, with minimal tools, including wet and dry, a leatherman, and my usual kit of sockets and spanners. Put it back together with no gasket goo, and rode another 100 miles on Sunday.! I'd rather do that and enjoy the bike than have a concourse any day... but that's just me.
Yes, I have been through the Aust. War Memorial records with my bike tank number. Got what I can, and the guys on here have helped out with much more information. I've got a lot more than what I initially thought possible, including the connote for the delivery to OZ, and the original dispatch records from pommy land. Alas, seems that finding out its 'actual service history' as in, if my bike had left the training camp, or had been overseas, or saw a day of battle? I doubt I'd ever be able to find that out.
And yes, I'm learning about being 'known'. Funny how many of the old guys who didn't used to talk to me at the rallies, now do, as they witnessed first hand that I knew how to rebuild my engine in the field. ahahahah. Gained a few friends last weekend.
email (option): marty.whyte@gmail.com
Marty.
"It amuses me to read that there are 'so many M20's in Australia', and yet, finding parts or, even entire bikes is like looking for a needle in a haystack".
G'day Marty,
Back in the '50's the Beanham brothers (Allparts) bought acres of M20 army surplus and as of a month or two ago you could walk into Modak in Melbourne and buy engine, gearbox parts or odds and ends over the counter, (For years an M20 cylinder was used to hold the front door open). The hardest thing to get in Aust is good tin ware. David one of the sons still runs the business but closed the doors to the shop the other month but from all accounts will still answer the phone for mail orders.
https://www.pressreader.com/australia/old-bike-australasia/20160804/281719793948004
There's also Bill Green in NSW and while I've not purchased from him seems to have a lot of M20 parts for sale. Don't have a contact, sorry.
email (option): bsansw1@tpg.com.au
Thanks Trevor and all.
I've been in contact with Bill Green. Super nice fella. No doubt will be talking to him and a couple of other contacts quite a lot in the near future! :)
email (option): marty.whyte@gmail.com