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1942 WM20 photos?

Hi all ye WD freinds :)

Just wondering if there are any photos out there of 1942 WM20's in concourse and or original condition that are reliable to work from? Google images are great, but I'm not sure of the finer points of detail between years, so hard to know if the images are correctly named or not. For example - when did the rear go to a rib-less design?

Any photos greatly appreciated - I did a search but didn't seem to be any specific ones on here thru the search. :)

email (option): marty.whyte@gmail.com

Re: 1942 WM20 photos?

Hi Marty,

Let me know your frame number and I'll see what photos I have that are close to your frame number. I have loads of photos and also quite a few factory photos of WM20's. Best send me an email.

Henk

email (option): ahum@quicknet.nl

Re: 1942 WM20 photos?

To expand on Henk's comments, it's not really possible to categorise wartime WD motorcycles by 'model year' and although individual contracts each had a unique Spare Parts List and should theoretically have comprised identical machines, research has made it clear that the books were printed well in advance and that changes and updates were made as soon as practicable, often mid-contract.

However, it is also clear that after an initial shaky start, by the end of 1940, WD serial (census) numbers were following and linked to chassis numbers (this wasn't true of all manufacturers but certainly of BSA and Norton). This means that, as Henk indicates, we can usually 'bracket' a given machine and arrive at a fairly good idea of the original specification. It's rare that there are grey areas or vague change-overs. Once a change was made, it seems to have been continued with.

If Henk calculates your serial number then we can all have a look in our photo collections.

Re: 1942 WM20 photos?

Thank you :) I see the difficulty with catagorisation now.
My frame number is WM20.59362 and, according to Henk's dating cert, should have the Serial of C4556643 from the factory, despatched 30-04-1942.
It was sent to Australia, and given the number 39052.

I have Henk's DVD of infinite information, which is great, and he has many photos of the period '42-'45, but was wanting some side on kind of photos like the one at the top of the forum showing the detail. Even the parts lists are not the entire answer as you say, and especially as many parts are not illustrated.

Cheers.

email (option): marty.whyte@gmail.com

Re: 1942 WM20 photos?

Hi Marty
As a matter of interest, do your frame & engine numbers match? Mine do, which I'm given to understand is unusual.
Sorry, can't help with definitive photos.

Re: 1942 WM20 photos?

Bob, No, unfortunately frame and engine do not match. I started with a '41 engine and '42 frame, but lucked on a '42 engine yesterday and grabbed it. Not a long way apart, but as I understand, engines and frames were very much swapped around during the war at any rate, so I'm happy with the same year. :)

email (option): marty.whyte@gmail.com

Re: 1942 WM20 photos?

Hi Marty,

There is quite a good picture of a 1942 bike in the Technical section, electrical equipment of this website. Sensusnumber of this bike starts with 4552..... It still has got the horn underneath the saddle so I guess it is an early 1942 model.

Regards, Ramon 😎😎

Re: 1942 WM20 photos?

Hi Marty,

There is quite a good picture of a 1942 bike in the Technical section, electrical equipment of this website. Sensusnumber of this bike starts with 4552..... It still has got the horn underneath the saddle so I guess it is an early 1942 model.

Regards, Ramon 😎😎

Re: 1942 WM20 photos?

Hi Marty
Yes, engines & frames were swapped around a lot. I'm a bit mystified as to why mine match.

Re: 1942 WM20 photos?

Bob
Hi Marty
Yes, engines & frames were swapped around a lot. I\'m a bit mystified as to why mine match.
Bob,

If your M20 was purchased post war from Australia and has matching eng / frame #s it's likely that the army never got around to using it and was sold off when it became obsolete. If you look at the frame #'s page you'll see that there is a disproportionate amount of Aust bikes around this frame number that have matching engine #'s.

Re: 1942 WM20 photos?

Marty, have you downloaded the high-res images from the State Library of Victoria site (I think it's that one)...Several views of rooms full of newly arrived M20s - some with original British Ordnance serials and others overpainted with their new ARNs.

The photos are so good that you can zoom right in and even make sure that you have the right type of dust on yours :-)

Re: 1942 WM20 photos?

Hi Rik.

What search criteria did you use to search photos from Vic State Library?🔍

email (option): don@moeng.com.au

Re: 1942 WM20 photos?

I was going to say "Buggered if I can remember" but I've found them again - it's worth searching just under 'motorcycle' though in case they've added anything else.

I seem to remember that there is a bit of a trick to downloading them as large files so you may have to play around a bit.

http://search.slv.vic.gov.au/primo_library/libweb/action/dlSearch.do?dscnt=1&onCampus=false&query=any%2Ccontains%2Cmotorcycle%20BSA&bulkSize=20&tab=default_tab&group=ALL&vid=MAIN&institution=SLVPRIMO&fromLogin=true&search_scope=Everything

Re: 1942 WM20 photos?

Thanks very much Rik, hopefully I can find a pic of my bike there.
Cheers.

email (option): don@moeng.com.au

Re: 1942 WM20 photos?

Matty
Thanks for your thoughts about my matching numbers. Should this be the case & considering the bike's condition when I got it, I suspect that it was sold to one uncaring owner who hammered it thoroughly before chucking it in the back of the shed or something. The head had a few stumps where fins had once been,& it's had forks from another bike fitted at one stage, the longer ones as discussed on this forum some time back & had the remains of a green colour on the tank (not military green).

Re: 1942 WM20 photos?

Crikey! Thanks so much Rik. Those photos are gold! :)

email (option): marty.whyte@gmail.com

Re: 1942 WM20 photos?

Looking at Henk's frame numbers page there are a lot of M20s in Australia and New Zealand still with matching numbers, so it would appear the system worked differently there than in Europe.

I suspect its all down to numbers, down under a machine came in for repair and it was the only BSA needing work so it was fixed and sent out again.

In the UK a quantity of BSAs all arrived every day and a production line of repair was set up with one team removing engines another fixing them and yet another fitting the first available engine into the machine with the top priority.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Re: 1942 WM20 photos?

Rob
Thanks for your thoughts.
I'm interested to learn I'm not alone in having matching numbers. I've based my ideas on the UK notion that numbers don't match because of workshop attention etc, but a smaller overall number of machines here may've worked out as you say.

Re: 1942 WM20 photos?

Rob Miller
Looking at Henk's frame numbers page there are a lot of M20s in Australia and New Zealand still with matching numbers, so it would appear the system worked differently there than in Europe.

I suspect its all down to numbers, down under a machine came in for repair and it was the only BSA needing work so it was fixed and sent out again.

In the UK a quantity of BSAs all arrived every day and a production line of repair was set up with one team removing engines another fixing them and yet another fitting the first available engine into the machine with the top priority.

Rob
No the system worked exactly the same as in the UK.
What we did get down here was a massive number of unused M20's sold at "auction" for £ 10 as military surplus.
Some had quite low numbers.
Mine is 78096, matching numbers bought brand new surplus stock, the person I bought it off was the 2nd owner .
Now here is the interesting bit.
It is not listed in the legers that the war memorial has put on line.
Further more I have come across several others that are not there either so me thinks either BSA or the Dep of Supply shipped them over here to sell in order to raise desperately needed foreign exchange.
Remember post WWII most of the dairy other than fresh milk consummed in the UK and a lot of the dried milk consummed in Europe came from OZ & NZ and it had to be paid for some how.
Then there was the wool , wheat & mutton.
For while we had a neighbour who was born in Hambourg and she clearly remembers all of the dried milk containers having little Aussie flags on them, and after she saw her first real orange also with an Aussie flag on it she decided this was the place to be and became a stow away to get here.
The UK government reniged on the deal & never paid us for any armourments , small arms or ammo we shipped to the UK and we shipped a bloody lot of it so the Aust government was not in a mood to extend the UK credit for food & fiber

email (option): bsansw1@tpg.com.au

Re: 1942 WM20 photos?

Bob
Rob
Thanks for your thoughts.
I'm interested to learn I'm not alone in having matching numbers. I've based my ideas on the UK notion that numbers don't match because of workshop attention etc, but a smaller overall number of machines here may've worked out as you say.

No there are lots & lots of us with matching numbers.
Most were unused, mine was still greased for transport according to the person I bought it off.
The original owner fitted a surplus tank from a 350 empire star & matching wheels and the bike has remained that way since it was new & I have no intention of changing it.
Up until the late 70's M20's were a common sight on Sydney streets in peak hour then over the next decade just about vanished.
However there were so many still registered than when the LAMS system came in learner riders, M20's were on the original list of LAMS approved bikes so there must have been a lot of them still out there on full rego.

Our consessional registration has a rolling 30 year eligability so from 1970 on just about all M20's could have gone on club plates for $ 35/ year against $ 420 for a bike 500cc & over so I guess dad & grandad retired their faithful old horses & bought a modern 250 which would run rings around an M20 for speed, economy & reliability.

This is one of my sort of gripes about all of the clowns down here who "faithfully" restore an M20 to it's "original war time specification" right down to divisional insignias;- on bikes that never saw 1 second of active service.
But if they come across a military finished bike with a 1945 ( or latter ) number they scream out "FAKE" at the top of their lungs.

It is indeed a funny world.

email (option): bsansw1@tpg.com.au

Re: 1942 WM20 photos?

['This is one of my sort of gripes about all of the clowns down here who "faithfully" restore an M20 to it's "original war time specification" right down to divisional insignias;- on bikes that never saw 1 second of active service.
But if they come across a military finished bike with a 1945 ( or latter ) number they scream out "FAKE" at the top of their lungs.']

I have long held the view there is an unbalanced concentration on the WW2 period...Personally, I've never seen a WD bike presented in its pre war livery and it is pretty rare to see them presented in post war livery either...Many served in a variety of locations (and conflicts) after WW2 and this was as much part of their past as the wartime period was...

I'm still hoping at some point to purchase a very nice M20 that is in my locality and is in the markings of a BAOR Provost unit, the markings of the unit the current owner served in...If I do get it I certainly won't be repainting it in 'drab' WW2 finishes...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: 1942 WM20 photos?

Trevor, I stand by my theory. The situation was very different in Great Britain which is very very small compared to Australia which is very very big.

We do know that in Australia in 1942 a vast mechanised army was created to meet the expected Japanese invasion which never came, it was spread around thousands of miles of coastline because the invasion could have been directed anywhere, this invasion scare only lasted a short period before the tide of the war in the pacific began to turn and invasion became very unlikely.

Some vehicles probably did remain unused but many would have been used in training, repairs would have been carried out at many small local depots and MT units rather than a few larger ones which we had in Great Britain, because of the distances involved.

Its interesting that there are M20s in Australia which don't appear in the ledgers, maybe there are some ledgers missing, maybe some crated equipment never got unpacked and recorded or maybe an Australian whose job it was to keep the books up to date missed some out because he didn't know the rules?

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Re: 1942 WM20 photos?

Rob Miller
Trevor, I stand by my theory. The situation was very different in Great Britain which is very very small compared to Australia which is very very big.

We do know that in Australia in 1942 a vast mechanised army was created to meet the expected Japanese invasion which never came, it was spread around thousands of miles of coastline because the invasion could have been directed anywhere, this invasion scare only lasted a short period before the tide of the war in the pacific began to turn and invasion became very unlikely.

Some vehicles probably did remain unused but many would have been used in training, repairs would have been carried out at many small local depots and MT units rather than a few larger ones which we had in Great Britain, because of the distances involved.

Its interesting that there are M20s in Australia which don't appear in the ledgers, maybe there are some ledgers missing, maybe some crated equipment never got unpacked and recorded or maybe an Australian whose job it was to keep the books up to date missed some out because he didn't know the rules?

Rob
Well we will have to agree to disagree.
Of the 574 B40's used post M20, a lot of them had mixed engine & frame numbers.
I originally bought 4 from Moorebank over 3 auctions.
Two still had matching numbers and they were both marked "Cert UR " which of course means they were defective & kept for spares.
The defect was the needle roller big ends had collapsed the other 2 were marked "Prov UR" and these were runnning, although the big ends were on the way out and both of these had mismatched engine & frame numbers .
When the spare for them became unavailable the maintanance was contracted out and in Sydney this was held by Gladesville Motorcycles which was owned by the Carruthers brothers, you may have heard of Kel, apparently he was a good racer in his day.
They had 24 hours to turn around motorcycles so engine swapping was a regular occuruece .

In fact engine swapping was SOP and AFAIK still is
It is a lot cheaper to order 200 motorcycles and 10 spare engines than 210 motorcycles and then pressure the service division to have them all on the road all the time.
While Australia is a big & wealthy country, we have a very small defense budget and always have, even in wartime which no doubt goes a long way to explaining the propensity for Aussie troops to " repurpose" equipment that they were not issued with originally.

One of our members was in New Guinea and over there engines were swapped almost daily as the crushed coral used on the roads got injested and fused on top of the piston till eventually it fouled on the head at TDC.
From what Don said they had mechanics working full time scraping pistons, fitting new pistons, and welding heads & barrels.
Apparently a lot of them ended up with bent rods from all this abuse.
Also a lot of frames got scrapped as the really rough roads and very heavy loads took their tolls.

There were next to no roads in New Guinea ( still arn't ) so a lot of rearming was done via overloaded motorcycles.
Yes the PR photos of the Fuzzy Wuzzies all look really good, but a lot was shipped by motorcycle, if you look at the tonnages they would have needed several million natives to move all the gear
If they could get one, the Indians were preferred for this role but apparently there were a lot of M20's pressed into supply.

The Australian army has always been under equipted and still is today so nothing ever got to lay around unused.
Remember we did not retire WM20's till 1966 and even then signals & trainng were still using them as late as the mid 80's
When I was at one of he B40 auctions ( 84 I think ) there were army personnel still riding WM20's around base.

Unless some one has despatch records from BSA or Dep of Supply stating different I find it hard to believe we would be sent extra MW20's to defend Australia when Churchill refused to release troops to come back to defend the home turf from theaters that were closed and fully secure.
I am fairly well sure I have seen a despatch from the UK army noting that any Australian who returned to Aust was to be considered a deserter and treated accordingly.

Now if the boot was on the other foot, we did have excess WLA's cause the US troops brought way too many with them, but apparently over equipted & under trained was fairly typical for US troops, certianly the few Veterans I know who returned from the funny country always described the US troops like that.
The USA had massive supply industries and a lot of what they sent here was on Lend Lease basis so we only paid for them if they were pressed into service which is why as late as 2005 brand spanking new crated WLA's have turned up in regional Qld decommissioned defense warehouses.
And while we did raise a large army to defend against the Japanese, the bulk of these men were stationed on the East Coast near major cities and in particular rail lines. Nearly all of the emergency airfields built in the top end were built by the native troops then manned by the USA as we did not have enough aircraft, being that the UK would not release any to us , let alone planes that could do anything more than hope the Zeros would run out of shells or fuel before they got shot down .
We defended Darwin with Wirraways & Boomerangs, both under powered training aircraft fitted with a single or duel Hispano cannons till the USA arrived with real aircraft.

Most of the top end has tides that are measured in miles, not the place where you could deploy troops enmass thus there were a lot of airfields but not all that many barracks, Most of North East Qld is behind the Great Barrier Reef and there are not many breaks in it suitable to despatch large troop ships, this is one reason why Coral Sea was such an important battle there is only a dozen or so ways past the reef.
The Gulf is mostly crockadile infested swamp or shear cliff coastline, again not conducive to a large contingent of troops ready for immediate deployment. This is why we were using Sunderlands & Catalinas to defend the top end shipping and supplying remote outposts.

There is a good reason why the Dutch, French & Portugese who landed on the top end never stayed and why there are so few ports up north.

As for anything not being recorded, remember the Australian army evolved out of the British Imperial Forces so everything was recorded , right down to the last sheet of dunny paper.

It might prove interesting to run the list of known matching engine & frames against the contracts and see exactly who they were despatched to.
The idea that a number as low as 78096 sat around for years not being used is a tad beyond belief and according to the person I bought it off it was brand spanking new when the original owner got it.

email (option): bsansw1@tpg.com.au

Re: 1942 WM20 photos?

Ian Wright
['This is one of my sort of gripes about all of the clowns down here who "faithfully" restore an M20 to it's "original war time specification" right down to divisional insignias;- on bikes that never saw 1 second of active service.
But if they come across a military finished bike with a 1945 ( or latter ) number they scream out "FAKE" at the top of their lungs.']

I have long held the view there is an unbalanced concentration on the WW2 period...Personally, I've never seen a WD bike presented in its pre war livery and it is pretty rare to see them presented in post war livery either...Many served in a variety of locations (and conflicts) after WW2 and this was as much part of their past as the wartime period was...

I'm still hoping at some point to purchase a very nice M20 that is in my locality and is in the markings of a BAOR Provost unit, the markings of the unit the current owner served in...If I do get it I certainly won't be repainting it in 'drab' WW2 finishes...Ian
Exactly,
At an Anzac Day parade down in Albury there were 2 WM20's with vets riding pillion at the head of the Korean War Vets.
They were both decked out as Signals bikes ( so I was told ) .
However I have never seen one since and every WM20 I come across is decked out in WWII colours usually with a long blurb of its supposed service history ( most of which I would suspect are total fabrications ).

email (option): bsansw1@tpg.com.au

Re: 1942 WM20 photos?

Wow, you guys have quite an amount of information! Love it.
It amuses me to read that there are 'so many M20's in Australia', and yet, finding parts or, even entire bikes is like looking for a needle in a haystack.

In response to 'restoring to original WW2 livery true to it's history', well, I guess I come under that brand, however, in my neck of the woods, and on my 'old bike rally circuit', there are NO military bikes that get out and about, and so I wanted to build one, and get it out there with my Matchless, to enjoy. I know nothing of its service history, and as the Australian military forces saw fit, all documents of such history were destroyed many moons ago. I'm not a nut and bolt counter, however, I just wanted my bike to be as close as practicable to how it was delivered, for my enjoyment. No other reason.

I'm guessing the perceived overzealous focus on WW2 bikes (certainly not something I see in QLD in Australia) is only due to availability. The exact reason I am doing a WM20 with my limited abilities. A great debate guys! :) Loving all the information :)

email (option): marty.whyte@gmail.com

Re: 1942 WM20 photos?

Marty, it's your bike to do exactly as you want with. If you like the look of a catalogue finish then go for it. My view is that it's a good starting point and it can then age gracefully. I like to keep them 'in period' and my personal niggles are modern pattern bright-chromed handlebar levers and visible pre-insulated electrical connectors.

It's become fashionable of late to slag 'rivet-counters' and worship any form of scruffiness as 'patina'.

Have you checked your numbers through the ARN record books ? You have a damned sight more to go on than in most parts of the world. The books though do only include army registrations and there seem to be no surviving RAAF or RAN records...nor will there be any for governmental organisations which may have received transport as 'essential users'....Fire Brigades etc. in the UK.

If you get the basics right, the details can be changed later - my 16H project took six years of parts hunting and didn't stop then :relaxed:

WDM20s are not uncommon but that doesn't mean there are a lot about. Most people hang on to them and the same goes for spares. If you're planning a long term relationship then you have to buy parts as they become available. You're already on the old bike scene so you'll be aware that it's necessary to become 'known' as looking for stuff and it helps to have NOS parts to swap - often better than offering to buy parts as most of the old buggers with these luxury machines aren't short of a bob or two.:stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

Re: 1942 WM20 photos?

Hi Marty,

Jeff Gordon that is on the forum lives near Brissie. He owns a WDM20 and is in the Military Jeep Club Of Queensland and is on Facebook. Worth a try.

Dave

email (option): jeepfinger@blueyonder.co.uk

Re: 1942 WM20 photos?

Hi Rik,
Thanks for the links to photos above! Great stuff.
I totally agree about the rivet counters and patina lovers. Fashions in any hobby/industry come and go. Personally not a huge fan of OWNING a rusty old bike covered in WD40 that runs. Also, not a huge fan of OWNING a concourse bike. I ride my bikes in rally's regularily and love enjoying them. I have just about finished my engine and paint 're-restoration' after buying a 'restored' Matchless. Got the painted tank, oil tank and toolbox back this week, and am now not sure if I want to ride it! ahahaha. Looks too pretty. Where as my other Matchless, looks very presentable, but has stone chips, a bit of oil build up in hard to get to areas, and, I just had to pull the motor apart in the paddock at a rally on the weekend, to fix a stuck top ring, scored bore and blown head gasket, with minimal tools, including wet and dry, a leatherman, and my usual kit of sockets and spanners. Put it back together with no gasket goo, and rode another 100 miles on Sunday.! I'd rather do that and enjoy the bike than have a concourse any day... but that's just me.

Yes, I have been through the Aust. War Memorial records with my bike tank number. Got what I can, and the guys on here have helped out with much more information. I've got a lot more than what I initially thought possible, including the connote for the delivery to OZ, and the original dispatch records from pommy land. Alas, seems that finding out its 'actual service history' as in, if my bike had left the training camp, or had been overseas, or saw a day of battle? I doubt I'd ever be able to find that out.

And yes, I'm learning about being 'known'. Funny how many of the old guys who didn't used to talk to me at the rallies, now do, as they witnessed first hand that I knew how to rebuild my engine in the field. ahahahah. Gained a few friends last weekend.

email (option): marty.whyte@gmail.com

Re: 1942 WM20 photos?

Marty.
"It amuses me to read that there are 'so many M20's in Australia', and yet, finding parts or, even entire bikes is like looking for a needle in a haystack".

G'day Marty,

Back in the '50's the Beanham brothers (Allparts) bought acres of M20 army surplus and as of a month or two ago you could walk into Modak in Melbourne and buy engine, gearbox parts or odds and ends over the counter, (For years an M20 cylinder was used to hold the front door open). The hardest thing to get in Aust is good tin ware. David one of the sons still runs the business but closed the doors to the shop the other month but from all accounts will still answer the phone for mail orders.

https://www.pressreader.com/australia/old-bike-australasia/20160804/281719793948004

There's also Bill Green in NSW and while I've not purchased from him seems to have a lot of M20 parts for sale. Don't have a contact, sorry.

Re: 1942 WM20 photos?

Matty Leahy
Marty.
"It amuses me to read that there are 'so many M20's in Australia', and yet, finding parts or, even entire bikes is like looking for a needle in a haystack".

G'day Marty,

Back in the '50's the Beanham brothers (Allparts) bought acres of M20 army surplus and as of a month or two ago you could walk into Modak in Melbourne and buy engine, gearbox parts or odds and ends over the counter, (For years an M20 cylinder was used to hold the front door open). The hardest thing to get in Aust is good tin ware. David one of the sons still runs the business but closed the doors to the shop the other month but from all accounts will still answer the phone for mail orders.

https://www.pressreader.com/australia/old-bike-australasia/20160804/281719793948004

There's also Bill Green in NSW and while I've not purchased from him seems to have a lot of M20 parts for sale. Don't have a contact, sorry.
Bill Green trades as bbg34 at big pond dotcom ( put it in a form the web can understand )
0419280650
or Box 750 Kellyville 2155.
He deals mainly in NOS & pattern engine parts , cables etc as he now runs it out of a suburban single garage.

As for the lack of availability of tinwear, why are you suprised ?
As mentioned earlier , my WM20 was civilanized back in the 40's.
The war was over and we really did not need to be reminded of it.
Also we did not need to ride around on a bike that was both obsolete and screamed "PAUPER" as you rode down the road.

Then there were all the small equipment makers who bought them by the hundreds, stripped the engines out and sold off what was left over, mainly to Mr Sims who became the worlds largest scrap merchants once we were allowed to sell scrap to Japan again.

Have a chat to Bill and he will happily tell you stories of buying all the military tin wear of owners in the 60s & 70s so they could fit pretty civy tinwear on them and latter on selling the same people back the military tin wear when it became "fashionable" to have a military bike mainly 90 onwards when the bad taste of Vietnam had finally dissipated.
Naturally he only kept the good stuff & scrapped all the stuff that had seen better days.
Farmers bought WM20's by the dozens and again stripped the engines out to run pumps, 32V generators , portable shearing sets, bench saws, etc tec tec.
Fifty years latter, the frames turn up at clearing sales , go for a song then the quest for the rest of the bits starts.
Seen a lot of barrows and "house trailers" proudly running on WM20 wheels .
The local market gardener had a stack of barrows running on motorcycle wheels and you could bet they were WM20 ones.

email (option): bsansw1@tpg.com.au

Re: 1942 WM20 photos?

Thanks Trevor and all.

I've been in contact with Bill Green. Super nice fella. No doubt will be talking to him and a couple of other contacts quite a lot in the near future! :)

email (option): marty.whyte@gmail.com

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