Greetings Sir Ewok, would it be possible to send me your email address please? I'd like to discuss your photos of Australian DRs and WD bikes.I'm doing research for a book that my wife and I are thinking of writing on Australian DRs (overseas and on home soil).
Regards, Rob

email (option): robert.g.elliott@gmail.com

Although those Norton entries above such as 94620 have been given a 'W' prefix in the records, this is incorrect - they are from pre-September 1939 machines which had numbers from the normal Norton sequences.

It is interesting that they listed under engine number (perhaps because it was more visible).

These machines were despatched to Carr Eliott in Australia during July 1939 and were "To War Office Spec, with tank air cleaner'.

Engines numbered 94620 - 94649 fitted to non sequential frames around the range 107006 - 107069. The engines were built as a batch of thirty but the frames were randomly numbered - which is odd as if they were to W.O. spec then they were of the high ground clearance type.

The use of engine numbers is going to make the study of the pre-war bikes complicated as also is the apparent re-use of numbers that were no longer in use. Some of these Norton numbers were later used on mid-war M20s.

Captain Jimmy Simpson R.A.S.C. used a Gold Star to train recruits,the helmeted skull on the tank was the school crest,the near side of the tank has thr red and green corps sign,an impressed machine?.Picture from Aug 14th 1941 Motorcycling.

46242 comes from the 46001 - 46551 batch, these were all impressed motorcycles. But this is the British census numbers system, not Australian.

Jan

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

At least we can now see what this twin-port beastie was :-



KM23 691 with a 20" front and 19" rear wheel. Does it say 'Silver' ?

691 was indeed an M23 despatched 24/3/39 to J.K.&M. London EC3 who were presumably export agents.

It might come as a big shock to some but until 1952 Australia was BSA's biggest export market.
We varied between 1/2 & 2/3 of all exported motorcycles.

Thus there are more veteran & vintage BSA's in Australia than anywhere else in the world.
We were Indians largest export market as well and despite the fact we have been sending them back to the USA by the container load we still have more here than anywhere else in the world .

So it is no surprise that the miliary ended up with a lot of M23 & M24's because we had a lot of them here in the first place.
Finance companies ( banks in particular ) would not lend money for the purchase of a used motorcycle and dealers were always reluctant to pa reasonable trade in value.
Australian houses were typically on large blocks of land and untill the 60's usually built on piers ( stumps in the bush ) so there was a natural repository for the "old girl" till the lads get big enough to ride it.

email (option): bsansw1@tpg.com.au

Here's another one I found today...

Finlay Bros BSA showrooms, Victoria Australia..



A good collection of C numbers there.

OK...now I'm getting excited (easily done when it comes to motorcycles I'm afraid).

One of those bikes is only 1 engine number off my bike, which is W12315!

From the looks of it the number plate on the front guard has the Army registration number prefixed with a red "C"...for "Commonwealth" I'm guessing?

I'll check out where W12314 was ultimately shipped to by checking the ships log - but the excerpt in a later reply to this post string shows it was shipped from "M" to "E", which is Melbourne to East - only the ships log will show where in the East it was shipped to exactly.

I agree that looks like Queensland in the photo - no doubt training prior to embarking overseas. The scene looks like a Signals group.

This forum is the coolest thing!

email (option): Robert.g.elliott@gmail.com

Hi Rob,

Some more exciting news for you!
#12315 is also in the AWM ledger, number AIF C11138. (C stands for Cycle by the way...). It was also shipped from Melbourne to the East, the ship was called Nordnes, the shipping date was 2/10/41:



The ship's logbook confirms this date, and shows destination Singapore, where it arrived on 18/10/41:



Jan

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

I'm quite surprised by that Jan. How did a vehicle get out of Singapore again prior to the Japanese invasion....or was it hidden away and brought back after the war ?

I suppose the other possibility is that for some reason it wasn't unloaded and returned to Australia ?

Which Australian units were heading to Singapore in October 1941?

Hi Steve,

Can you please tell me where you found the photo of the Despatch Riders on exercise in what appears to be Queensland? I'm keen to know if there was any caption or other information accompanying the photo as I believe the bikes in the photo might have been shipped to the same destination as my bike (Singapore).

Rob

email (option): robert.g.elliott@gmail.com

Jan this is turning out to be the best Christmas present I've ever had!!

The bikes pictured at the start of this thread were shipped on the Westralia in February 1941, earlier in the year than mine - is there any record of it's ship's log? I'd like to know if it ended up in Singapore too.

email (option): robert.g.elliott@gmail.com

Good questions indeed Rik - which have left me puzzled and concerned about the AWM records.

If the bike arrived in Singapore in October 1941 then:

Who was it shipped to? Was it 8th Division Signals (the logical destination for a Despatch Riders Bike) or a was it a Provost bike?

How did it survive the war given that Malaya and Singapore fell to the Japanese in February (I think) 1942?

How did it end up in Disneys of Melbourne? Interestingly enough a lot of ex WD motorcycles were bought from the Government by Disneys for resale - this is evident in the AWM registration books. But how did it get back to Australia?

My engine and frame numbers are matching (W12315) and the crankcase halves also have matching numbers inside. The Norton factory engine build date inside the cases is 16 - 6 - 1940 which fits the chronological story.

But what is the relevance of the number WO 11871 which is on the side of the timing chest?







Thanks for your tips on posting photos Sven - it's a breeze now I've got the hang of it!

email (option): robert.g.elliott@gmail.com

Rob, the font and stamp forms on all your markings are exactly as I'd expect them to be.

The 'WO' number, although not documented appears to be a factory engine build reference. It was not used pre-war, at which time the actual engine number was used - The 'W' number on the side of the crankcase can best be viewed as a 'Duplicate frame number' - The War Office required it but there is no way that the factory was capable of matching pre-stamped engines and frames in the assembly shop - and why would they have wanted to ?

The 'WO' number was also used on spare engines so the relationship to the machine number varied but yours is in the correct range.

It's interesting that where the British War Office contracts were stamped with an M^ inspector's mark, yours has a small 'Disney' stamp.

Disney was a large pre-war Norton importer. It could even have been that these early wartime bikes were ordered through them.

My knowledge of the war in the Far East is a little sketchy I'm afraid, beyond being aware that the surrender of Singapore was a disaster and a tragedy for the huge numbers of servicemen involved.

Was Singapore a final destination or were there Australian units there who either returned to Australia with their transport or were sent on to other locations. It is certainly the case that AIF forces in the Middle East returned with all their transport in order to face the threat from Japan (in fact they returned with quite a lot of transport pinched from the British as well, but that's another story

I suppose another possibility is perhaps that the machine had problems or a sub-section move was cancelled and it didn't actually take its place on-board.

The next line of research would probably be to start looking at Troop movements through 1941 - '42. It won't only be signals and provost units who had substantial numbers of motorcycles. Normal infantry units had a fair establishment, as did Engineers. Artillery were a major user as they were responsible for their own transport movements and communications in an era when radio contact was often unreliable.

Hi Rob,

looks like to become very interesting here!
I bet all Norton guys would like to have the history of their bikes as clear as yours, including me!
Let's hope some more info can be revealed soon.

Regards, Sven

email (option): snvosselman@gmail.com

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

Is it my dodgy eyesight or do the two outside bikes on the photo showing trick riding both showing a registration of C5103?

I think C5100, C5102, C5103 and possibly C5104

Thanks for the link Jan, I've sent off a request for information, will let everyone know what I find out.

email (option): robert.g.elliott@gmail.com

Interesting doesn't start to cover it Sven! Thanks for telling me about this forum - best entertainment I've had in ages.

email (option): robert.g.elliott@gmail.com

You've solved part of the puzzle Rik - I always assumed that the Disney markings on the crankcases were put on there after the war, which didn't seem right because the Army records show that the bike was disposed of to Lenroc, who were a South Australian dealer. If Disney were a major Norton importer before the war, then maybe they imported the WD 16H bikes for the Government - that would fit.

Cool!

email (option): robert.g.elliott@gmail.com

Thanks for the info, my eyesight is not what it used to be .......

Rob, I wouldn't discount the bike having been brought back to Australia well after the war via a non-official path.

I served with the Australian Air Force in Malaysia in the mid-70's (that involved stints in Singapore) and there were still a couple of M20's being used by the locals then so whether these avoided capture or just didn't get destroyed are both possibilities.

I know that while I was there a pre-war Norton International surfaced and it had been buried ahead of the Japanese invasion and ended up hidden for decades.

There were dozens of English bikes brought back to Australia as private imports by Australian servicemen (I still kick myself for not bring back my Norton Dominator that I rode for a couple of years while there) so possible your Norton came back via a private deal?

email (option): rays54@hotmail.com

Absolutely correct Ray! I know that was the case from personal experience. I was working in Darwin as part of the rebuild after Cyclone Tracy and bought a Norton Dominator 88SS from a RAAF guy called "Bullets" who brought the bike to Australia after having been stationed at Butterworth Base. Wish I still had it. He told me there were still quite a few WD bikes around the Malay Peninsula even then. I also bought NOS WD Norton parts from Malaysia back in the 80s - some still in their grease proof wrapping!

However, the thing that suggests that the bike was brought back after the war by the Army was that the AWM records show that it was eventually disposed of to Lenroc in Adelaide. How would the Army know who the bike was disposed off to unless they had possession of it? Does anyone know if motorcycles were ever shipped back to their place of origin after the war? Vehicles were recaptured by the Allies after the Japs were driven out, there's photographs of that. But did they ever bother to bring them back to resell them?

The other possibility, as I think Rik suggested earlier, was that the bike didn't make it onto the Nordness on it's voyage to Singapore, or the ship turned back mid voyage(unlikely, as equipment and men were definitely being shipped to Malaya to shore up the defences at that time)....or the records are simply incorrect and W12315 was never in the batch that was shipped overseas in the first place!

Curiouser and curiouser!

email (option): robert.g.elliott@gmail.com

Hi Interesting information Some of the parts that I got for my WM 20 40775 came from an ex RNZAF loadmaster called Gavin who brought 3 WM 20's back from Singapore one of which he has kept and the others he onsold.
Henk sourced the identity of his bike which I passed on to him.
Gavin is still in the process of rebuilding his bike but it is on the back burner as he has an interst in Model T's!!
Cheers
John

email (option): jsaft1951@xtra.co.nz

my email address is as above.... stinkypete80@hotmail.com. I have a few pictures of Australian bikes and riders which I am happy to share with you. I don't have many details of where they were taken unless in the info with the picture. Please feel free to email me.....

email (option): stinkypete80 @hotmail.com

A reprint picture on ebay described as Australian troops in Burma, even its a good quality print its unlikely you could read a serial number, I wonder where the original photo is held?

Rob

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/352226590760?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk