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Re: Ernie Lindsell on his B.S.A

I think if someone wants to build a "tribute bike" all good luck to them. It is an ACTIVE way of preserving history - maybe not for the machine, but for the memories the owner has of relatives living or departed, or of events they wish to remember. It is a lovely way to pay tribute to a person, a unit or a memory. Really, who gives a flying f&%k. It's their motorcycle to do with as they please, and in the end, a quick paint job will give a new owner a clean slate.

We are so lucky to have experts here who can tell us when "our" WM20 was dispatched and the tank number she would have worn. But, after 75 years, it's
most likely that every other piece of that machine has been replaced with another part with a different provenance. And then, they were decommissioned and entered civilian service...

Passing it off as a machine with that actual provenance (assuming it was not there) is another story, but I suspect people on this forum would never think of doing that.

What about all those people who strip down these old war-horses and sell-off the parts? Should they be stoned to death? Hell, every one of us has relied at least once on that trickle of old bits to keep our bikes running. Get over it, go for a ride (probably a bit bracing in the UK at the moment) and worry about bigger things.

email (option): cas.vanderwoude@gmail.com

Re: Ernie Lindsell on his B.S.A

Sorry Mr Smith, couldn't disagree more. People spend a huge amount of time and effort not to mention money, in preserving artefacts be it a folding para bike to a Supermarine Spitfire. It is not betraying or denying history merely by portraying a machine in a certain colour scheme as long as an explanation of the facts is given. If what you said, were true, that would make the RAF's Battle Of Britain Memorial Flight, the worlds biggest offenders. They repaint aircraft on each major service with a colour scheme representing an individual, squadron or event. To me, what matters most is the ordinary man's efforts to preserve extrodinary men's deeds. Most of us in our hobby display our machines publicly in one way or another and as we know there are an awful lot of people
"out there" who, haven't a clue,a lot of the time through no fault of their own. But, once a story or a snippet of history is passed on to them, the change in attitude can be nothing more than remarkable.So every time I take my WM20 out for a spin, I think of my late father in law ( whose name & sevice number is on the tank ) who left his WM20 in the English Channel at Dunkirk.I close this missive with the motto of the BBMF.
"LEST WE FORGET "

email (option): petethejeep@hotmail.co.uk

Re: Ernie Lindsell on his B.S.A

When I got my bike I had a choice of two and I chose the one with the red over blue of the Artillery as my Dad was a Bombadier in WW2. I doubt if the markings are original as the tank number is also the engine number as a previous owner obviously didn't know the real one. Also my bike is a 1940 deluxe frame with a 1942 engine, which history is the correct one...1940 or 1942?

I believe that tribute bikes may actually be truer to history, since most bikes are a hodge podge of engines and frames due to the service systems of the British army in WW2 and after. The tribute bike represents a bike of a particular regiment/division that did exist.

As stated above I would not like to see a bike with 'original' markings changed as that would destroy it's history......

Re: Ernie Lindsell on his B.S.A

My M20 was fully rebuilt and civilianised (in colour at least) by a dealer before selling it off to someone local to me in 1968...I'm the third post war owner after demob and I knew the other two...(one of whom was an ex DR)

Contrary to common belief it wasn't just lined up against a wall and sprayed...It was stripped to bare metal and properly resprayed in a fetching maroon colour...including engine, gearbox and magndyno!..So no original markings remained...

That maroon colour is still inside the headlamp shell as a momento of that part of its history...During my ownership it has had two 'military' paintjobs and sets of markings...European theatre drab with 30 Corps markings and desert sand with Phantom Signals markings...

The vast majority of WD bikes have no original markings and little traceable history so I guess some markings with 'family relevance' or a unit in which the owner has an interest is actually a logical choice....

I know my bike ended its career with a post war unit of the territorial army so should it be marked up for that unit?...Maybe...

I've now owned it for longer than the Army had it and I've very probably done more miles on it (well over 100,000)...

I reckon that gives me the right to my own bit of its 'history' and my chosen markings!... ...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: Ernie Lindsell on his B.S.A

My goodness, I do hope I have not caused upset between those of the WD Motorcycle Forum. Let me speak as a total outsider. I attend various events where World War 2 motorcycles are in attendance, I can only say a huge thank you to everyone who owns one! I understand that during a bikes time in service anything and everything would have been pinched from another machine to keep it going. Early bikes with later levers, headlights, engines.......the list is endless. All that matters is that everyone is looking after their respect motorcycle and keeping it going for posterity. I am involved with Classic Cars, have been for years, I am 60, and all that matters to me is that they are preserved in what ever form, keeping memories alive. I would like to sincerely thank everyone for preserving there own bit of history. I myself would like to own one for the memories of my Uncle, however my costs would be limited to £3,000 so I cannot see it happening. As promised please find attached details of what I found for my Uncle.


Sorry I need to find out how to import my 3 photographs.

email (option): wilma.gammon@sky.com

Re: Ernie Lindsell on his B.S.A

Hello Geoff, there's a small matter of my commission, yours "from up the road" Pete.

email (option): petethejeep@hotmail.co.uk

Re: Ernie Lindsell on his B.S.A

Well I said it was subversive! But as far as I'm concerned each machine has it's own history for good or bad but to have another identity thrust upon it seems wrong and misleading to those who follow. So in my mind unless the mass of the bits of an artefact can be proven to have been in a particular environment at a particular period it is a fabrication, that is I believe in legal speak a lie. Honour your forbears by all means but don't associate them with stuff they never saw.
Richard

email (option): richard177smith@btinternet.com

Re: Ernie Lindsell on his B.S.A

['but to have another identity thrust upon it seems wrong and misleading to those who follow...']


I would have thought if you tell people you have applied (as opposed to 'thrust') a given set of markings to a vehicle in memory of a family member you're not misleading anyone...

Best not to get too carried away about a history that usually can't be traced...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: Ernie Lindsell on his B.S.A

Richard, my motorcycle is not an "artifact". It is the thing I use to get to work and back every day. I take the greatest delight in the beauty of it's simplistic elegance and the fact that after 75 years, I can still use it for it's intended purpose.

It was dispatched in very early 1941 so while being made, the makers were under fire during Britain's darkest hour. Someone's granny donated her pots and pans to provide metal for the castings. It's value lies in the very molecules that make up the machine, not the paint on the outside.

I do not think it matters what colors I paint it and I don't understand why anybody would think they had a right to choose for me. I'll paint it flesh pink if I wish and dedicate it to a burlesque dancer - it will still be what it is. Maybe I should have kept it just as I found it? Image below

 photo IMG_0092_zpsdntmjyv7.jpg

email (option): cas.vanderwoude@gmail.com

Re: Ernie Lindsell on his B.S.A

And a very nice bike it is I'm sure Cas,and as I've said before its your bike and your can do with it what you like. But I still maintain my stance that there is a distinction between a bike, painting,furniture or any other "artifact" that has a place in history and one that portrays an applied (thrust?) history . Fine it at portrayal is clear and can not be "confused" with time, but we only have to look at the auction houses to see some of the optimistic provenance's on their offerings to see this effect, certain blue sports cars spring to mind.
Any way none of it really matters as we are just a bunch of old blokes riding around on older (mostly) bikes. I also don't like fancy dress parties but I am a fan of Tom Keating.
Richard

Re: Ernie Lindsell on his B.S.A

I disagree with you too Richard, I can see absolutely nothing bad about a tribute bike, I've put my M20 in various markings over the years, and whichever one it was in at the time it was a tribute to someone, and all the wartime veterans I've met have been happy with this.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Hi Henk, can I send you these to add to the Ernie Lindsell post? Wilma

email (option): ahum@quicknet.nl

Re: Hi Henk, can I send you these to add to the Ernie Lindsell post? Wilma

I must say I very much agree with the comments posted by Cas...

The majority of the WD bikes out there wouldn't be on the road if they hadn't been rebuilt, either by the people that used them as cheap transport post war when no one bothered one jot about their 'history' or in latter years when enthusiasts for the machines rescued many from an inglorious end in a hedge or the local breakers...

At each stage a bit more history was added and a bit more of the original history removed and the bikes are none the worse for that in my opinion..That IS history in action...

I rebuilt one of my bikes (a basket case returned from Egypt) with the markings of the unit a family member was in at the time of his death on D Day...I consider that a great way to remember someone who died for our benefit aged just 21 years old...There is a bit of history that is worth preserving...

Of course if I adhered strictly to the preservation of its actual 'history' it would still be a basket case in the back of my workshop...

I think the mistake being made here is to ignore the fact that in the case of a vast number of machines there is no meaningful military history to preserve...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: Hi Henk, can I send you these to add to the Ernie Lindsell post? Wilma

Hi, you did a superb job with the photographs I sent, thank you! Can anyone tell me what any of the writing means in this line of detail? Kind regards Geoff Gammon.

email (option): wilma.gammon@sky.com

Maybe of interest?

Hi, I came across this and thought it would be good to put on the site, kind regards Geoff Gammon. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2702871/Treasure-trove-classic-cars-bottom-sea-The-British-Merchant-Navy-ship-carrying-military-vehicles-sunk-Red-Sea-Second-World-War.html
Just copy and paste to view.

email (option): wilma.gammon@sky.com

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