If you are thinking of buying a new WDM 20 clutch sprocket take care...

There are good quality new ones on the market which are available from a few retailers..

These are UK made by Velocette Engineering in Coventry and are of very good quality...My initial idea was to buy one from Burton Bike Bits but I noticed that Draganfly were listing the sprocket as well and as I needed a few other parts I thought I'd order it all together..

As a bonus the sprocket was a bit cheaper...

I specifically asked whether the sprocket was the 'Velocette' item and the answer was yes...

However, when the parts turned up it wasn't the Velocette sprocket but, I suspect, one from somewhere well east of Coventry...The quality was visibly poorer both in accuracy and surface finish...

The part is for an M20 I am repairing for a friend and he elected to go with the part supplied (against my judgement)..Personally I would have sent it back and frankly I'm bloody annoyed that I was lied to at the point of purchase....

So be warned...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

The thing with that Ian is it taints the thought of anything that someone tells you doesn't it.

I noticed that they had a tool box, eastern made, but apparently' a good quality one. Now I am not so sure.

Shame but lets hope its a one off as reputations are hard won but easily lost.
Darren

email (option): dwrudd at lineone.net

Hi Ian,

Thanks very much for the warning !

Kind regards,

MarkWUFHHd

email (option): towersmark84@yahoo.co.uk

Ian,

How can you tell Velocette made clutch sprockets, are they marked anywhere so you can identify the maker?

Tim W

email (option): t.j.walker@btinternet.com

The Velocette sprocket is machined all over and comes in the 'as machined' finish..They are CNC machined and the usual CNC high quality surface finish is obvious...

Velocette rear brake drums have 'Made in England' marked on them and the sprocket may be marked in the same way...

You can see a photo of one if you look on the Burton Bike Bits website under clutch parts...

The Dragonfly sprocket is chemically blacked and the surface finish leaves something to be desire in some areas...The holes through the 'uprights' of the basket are particularly badly formed...They have been drilled and as the section is curved and fairly thin they show the typical 'triangulation' of the hole that occurs in that situation...

The tapped holes that the clutch dome retaining screws fit into are also a non standard size (5mm)...

I don't actually know where they are made and only time will tell whether the part will be serviceable...My main worry is the steel spec. vis a vis the durability of the sprocket and the heat treatment/material of the bearing track, which is a separate part. ..Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

I think the chemically blacked finish is the giveaway to the poor clutch parts. On Ebay at the moment are blacked Norton clutch drums most likely the same manufacture as the BSA ones. I know of a guy who has brought one of the Norton ones and it's a slack fit over the clutch centre rollers, in fact slacker than the damaged one he has taken off. He has still fitted it so i do not know if the roller race is hard or not.
I have no faith in these eastern engine and transmission parts. If you can get them to fit they fail or cause bother very soon. Some of the steel mudguards look good but i bet they are not the right radius and you will never get them to look right. You see plenty newly restored bikes with the wrong radius mudguards and they look a arse.
Thanks for the tip on the Velo manufactured parts.

Tim W

email (option): t.j.walker@btinternet.com

Is there a recommendation for reliable sources for sprockets? Burton Bikes seemed to have only the rear.
Regards, Scott

Ask Burton Bike Bits if the rear sprockets they are offering were made by Velocette Engineering in Coventry...
If they are you won't have any problems...They are very nicely made to the correct spec....

There are probably other dealers selling them as well...

I have one fitted to my own bike...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

I bought a clutch centre from Draganfly some years back when I first fettled the M20. When I put the nut on the spring pressure stripped the all threads straight off; it took me a while to realise why the it wasn't tightening :-) Got the usual no quibble refund. In fairness to them I have had some first class parts from them. It makes you wonder that as the stock of NOS stuff gradually disappears and the quest for new and cheaper suppliers increases, that the quality is going to drop as suppliers look to cut corners to be competitive and keep a profit margin.

If the bikes continue to increase in value then there is every reason to expect better quality reproduction spares, not worse ones...

My own view is that a poor quality/ill fitting/unserviceable part isn't worth having at any price...

I guess if the day comes when good parts are unaffordable then that's the day to sell the bike...or to get into manufacturing...

Established businesses shouldn't even be offering the rubbish...What kind of a service to the customers is that?...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Just an update on the latest situation.
After last weeks comments I checked by phone that Burtons were supplying the Velocette sprockets and then ordered one online.
It arrived today and I am not impressed at all. Initially alarm bells rang when it was black, not silver and even though it has Made In England stamped on it a couple of problems leave me in doubt.
The threads have not been de-burred on the inside, so a pronounced sharp edge is evident. But the inside of the drum back plate (not the running area for the shoes) is awful. Deep gouged out tool marks leave it rough as a bears ..... On closer inspection, flaws can be seen in the steel where it is rough machined which makes me wonder if it is to cover up the shoddy material.
I emailed right away and was assured that it was best quality and the last of a batch of fifty which had all gone out without complaint, but I asked to return it. They would not authorise collection unless they had proof of issue, and said that all their M20 rears were black and said that is what they looked like on the website with a link.
I sent back a photo of the problem with a photo of the SILVER unplated sprocket on their website and have insisted that they collect the unit as it is not up to standard.
They have not replied
Having over 30 years dealing with industrial engineering projects, I think that I can readily identify these type of issues and am so far, really disappointed with the attitude from them.
We will see what happens next but am I really going to have to send it back and then take action to get a refund?
Why won't people just deal straight?
Not right, no problem sir,
I am so annoyed and will not let this one go, its just wrong.
Darren

email (option): dwrudd at lineone.net

Hi Darren..I have a Velocette rear brake drum on my M20...The brake drums are black (unlike the clutch sprocket)..I have to say that I was happy with mine in every respect...

I have sold a few of them and visually and dimensionally they were all the same and all 'up to scratch'...and I won't sell anything I think is defective in any way...

If there has been a drop off in Velocettes quality I have to say I'm surprised...and worried...

Regarding Burton Bike Bits I have been waiting 4 days for a reply on an M20 clutch spring...They supplied an engine shock absorber spring in error..

I then supplied all the relevant dimensions of both springs so they could check their stock but I'm still waiting for a reply after two further e mails and a phone call...The spring is the last part I need to complete a gearbox/clutch overhaul on a friends M20 which I only took on as a favour so it's a bit annoying to say the least...

Draganfly list the springs but I've developed a reluctance to buy from them as I'm not at all confident that I'll get a quality part from them either...It really is a dilemma...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

I bought my rear brake drum/sprocket of Geoff Myers some years ago and never had a problem with it. It was black and stamped Made in England.

For what it's worth Darren and for what else is available, it might just pay to accept it and do any little fettling yourself. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Thanks Guys,
I will see what is said and take it from there, I could tidy up the inside on my own lathe, but you really should not have to on a new part, but it may be the only way.
Cheers
Darren

email (option): dwrudd at lineone.net

I thought Australia only got the cheap imports for M20. I purchased a Made in England rear brake drum for my sons WDM20 and wondered why it would not fit to the wheel until i realised the clowns making it had the threads on different angles so when you took the drum off and screwed the bolts in by them selves they looked like the Eiffel tower base. I took it back to the shop and got a proper one that actually fitted. The quality difference between the two was huge. I did not know India was a part of England.

email (option): ukcarbs@hotmail.com

['I did not know India was a part of England...']

Funny you should say that...I've seen parts advertised as 'Made in England' and I'm 99.9% sure they are of Indian origin...The fact is we're really up against it if sellers are starting to be dishonest about the origin of what they are selling...

Regarding my previous post Burton Bike Bits got back to me this morning...They didn't have the M20 clutch spring to replace the shock absorber spring they sent in error...

So, I still need a NOS clutch spring if anyone knows where they are stocked or has one spare...

In the event that they are no longer available, today I might look at doing the REME mod. to the clutch nut instead...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Here's an update on the clutch sprocket saga...

I purchased from Draganfly a 'non Velocette' manufactured clutch sprocket..A clutch center of unknown origin and some metal clutch plates...(see the initial post in this thread...)

First the good news...The gearbox operated smoothly after a full overhaul and the clutch plates were fine...

Initially the clutch went together OK and I took the bike out for a short test run..No problems really and I parked the bike outside the workshop and went for a coffee...When I came back I started the bike up but the clutch would not disengage...After a bit of kicking and 'jogging' back and forth in gear it freed of...

Unusual, M20 clutches don't usually stick. However, I had fitted a full set of new plates so maybe when they bedded in a little they'd be alright...

I took the bike for another lap round the village...The clutch was free but it wouldn't disconnect the drive by the time I got back...

So I stripped it all down...

The gearbox turned freely and selected all the gears after the clutch was removed so this was a clutch problem..Returning to the clutch I checked all the plates..They looked fine..In fact it all looked OK but I didn't separate the clutch centre, clutch sleeve, rollers and sprocket..They were turning freely and appeared fine...

So I put it all back together and got the same result..Once again I stripped it down but this time I fully stripped the clutch and really began to check things thoroughly...

The problem turned out to be that the clearance between the back of the clutch centre when mounted to the clutch sleeve and the clutch sprocket and rollers was insufficient..It would turn when cold but as soon as it was run and warmed up a fraction it 'pinched' the sprocket...

After two attempts at running it the rear of the centre and the front of the shoulder inside the clutch sprocket had 'galled' on the surfaces due to the excess friction and things then got worse...

Having measured everything I machine a few thou of the back of the clutch centre to clean the surface and then a little of the sprocket shoulder until there was minimal but adequate clearance between the two parts when assembled and the clutch sprocket rotated freely....

I then reassembled it all and finally had a properly functioning clutch AND gearbox...

I'd like to invoice Draganfly for the time I spent f*****g about rectifying their defective parts but the world isn't like that unfortunately...

The moral of the story?...DON'T BUY THESE PARTS UNLESS YOU HAVE ACCESS TO MACHINING FACILITIES AND YOU HAVE AT LEAST A DAY TO SPARE!!!... ...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Without wishing to perpetuate this tale of disatification conquered by individual skill, I have to say it is nothing new. Some years ago I bought a bigend from a prominent owners club spares scheme dealing with AMC machines. In all ways it appeared to be fine but when the outer was pressed into the rod it was impossible to assemble, I tried another rod to check with the same result and upon measuring discovered the OD was 0.001" over size. The response to my inquiry was "That's OK, just send it back to us" which was fine for them but left me with a bike in bits that I needed to use. It is fortunate that I could grind off that thou. and have had many thousands of happy miles since. But what do other people do without access to equipment and skills do? I think we will have more of this in the future as we become more like the "Classic Car" culture.
Richard

Richard I think it's quite normal that a big end outer will need to be honed to size once it's pressed into the con rod. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Yes, honing the big end eye to the finished size after fitment is 'normal procedure' for that type of big end...

Unfortunately though, 'remachine to function' is becoming more common across the board...I really sympathise with the owners who don't have the facilities/knowledge etc. to overcome these problems...

At the end of the day it is squarely down to the seller to ensure that what they are selling is fit for purpose, particularly in the case of a business that promotes itself as a 'specialist' dealer...

Largely, I resent the wasted time and effort that I have to put in to rectify the problems that shouldn't be there...

Specialists?....Hmmm... ....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Hi Ian
I returned my shoddy made rear drum sprocket and clutch basket to Draganfly,I emailed them before putting the order in and was assured that the parts were made in the UK ,returned 4 weeks ago ;emailed them about a refund but no reply !
Just received a very good quality clutch basket from burtons, and a very good velocette brake sprocket ,clutch was silver in colour ,brake was black
Burtons cost more but the quality was very good
Buyer beware!
Lee Carter

email (option): Skychaser73@gmail.com