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Front mudguard marking ID please

Hi,

Does anyone have some information of the '63" on this frontmudguard ?

 photo SAM_6600_zps6vs99qsd.jpg

I did calculate C5117150 as WM20.83750 from S1048, late '42 early '43.

mudguard is brown, tip is green.

Thanks in advance, Michiel

email (option): m.wijbenga@hotmail.com

Re: Front mudguard marking ID please

Michiel as far as I can see, 63 on a leaf green background is in infantry battalion attached to an Armoured division. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: Front mudguard marking ID please

That's interesting, it looks like someone put the numbers on nice and evenly and then realised they needed a "C" in front, how odd?

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Re: Front mudguard marking ID please

It also seems that the C was more important than a speedo cable?
Richard

Re: Front mudguard marking ID please

Thanks, Ron, is there a website or book where I can find that kind of information ?

Hi Rob, yes that could be, it also seems to have a different font, but on the other hand it has the same 'craquele or crackle ??' in the paint as the numbers....


Hi Richard, not sure what you mean, could you clarify.

Re: Front mudguard marking ID please

Hi Michiel. A green surface is always an infantry battalion. In this case is number 63 AN infantry battalion belonging to an armoured division as Ron suggested. Numbers 60, 61 and 62 on green are also the Numbers of infantry batallions in AN infantry division.
You can find most Numbers and colours in the book The British Soldier, volume 2.

As you know I live near Arnhem Holland. If you PM your mobile number I can send you some pics of the pages of the book.

Do you have a picture of the whole bike?

Regards, Ramon

email (option): noahlevi6@hotmail.com

Re: Front mudguard marking ID please

Is this thought to be original wartime paint and markings?

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Re: Front mudguard marking ID please

Michiel, as Ramon suggests there is lots of information and nice colour plates in that book by Jean Bouchery. Here is the relevant page. Ron

 photo scan-170119-0001_zpsblyg4efu.jpg

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: Front mudguard marking ID please

'twas not I who made the comment re the speedo but yet another 'hawk eyed' Richard, the speedo cable is missing from the drive. kind regards

email (option): woolnough@mchenry.plus.com

Re: Front mudguard marking ID please

Good Job, Ron.

These are the pages I meant in my comment.

Regards, Ramon

email (option): noahlevi6@hotmail.com

Re: Front mudguard marking ID please

Thanks!, will look after that book.

I assume the markings are the Original ones, at least that is why I bought the pile of bits in France.

 photo IMG_0746_zpszfmbn63p.jpg

It was not complete and little rusty but most of the bits still had the Original paint, so saved as much paint as possible, hope you like it.

 photo SAM_6595_zpsmnoc9ti9.jpg

Cheers, Michiel

Re: Front mudguard marking ID please

 photo SAM_6596_zpsfvan28fw.jpg

WM20.63546

 photo SAM_6601_zpsewb0sr0b.jpg

Re: Front mudguard marking ID please

That's a very nice find. I really like the color. Is it an M20 or KM21?

Regards, Ramon

email (option): noahlevi6@hotmail.com

Re: Front mudguard marking ID please

I don't think Service brown was used till 1942

Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: Front mudguard marking ID please

Hi Ron, I don't exactly understand what you mean with the word 'till'.

Always thought that the brown was mid-war which is around 1942-43 ??

According to O&M the C-number on the brown mudguard should belong to WM20.83750 from S1048 24/09/42 to 03/11/43.

My WM20.91369, which falls into the same contract, also has an Original Brown painted frame.

Do we know when the Service Brown was first used ?

Thanks for your comments, Ramon!

Michiel

Re: Front mudguard marking ID please

Is some of it khaki green, Michiel ? It wouldn't surprise me if many bikes ended up with several colours on.

Census numbers along the mudguard blade are not that common and as Rob pointed out, the manner of application is unusual - First the stencilled number, then the green Arm of Service patch and then the signwritten 'C' ?

Do engine and frame numbers match the census number ?

Re: Front mudguard marking ID please

Michiel W
Hi Ron, I don't exactly understand what you mean with the word 'till'.

Michiel


Sorry Michiel! It's just an English slang version of 'Untill'

Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: Front mudguard marking ID please

Yes, most of it is khaki, I put together what was in the pile of bits, the frame and enginenumbers are matching WM20.63546, but they don't match with the frontguard - WM20.83750.

The numbers have clearly been on there for ages, so should be genuine I think. Here some close ups:

 photo SAM_6796_zpsymr51z4y.jpg

 photo SAM_6797_zpsj59lzpqa.jpg

Henk also told me the censusnumbers on the frontmudguard are not commom but he did find a wartime photo of one, but not a BSA. Will look for it.

As I was mainly attracted by the numbers I very much like your opinions on it.

Re: Front mudguard marking ID please

This cut-off piece also came with it:

 photo SAM_6798_zpszvoxavoe.jpg

This one looks to be more khaki than brown and on second thought maybe the complete mudguard is also khaki but got its brown look from the rust.

C4865488 = WM20.81505

Re: Front mudguard marking ID please

It all looks quite good but I don't have any photographic evidence to confirm. Certainly old oil-based paint and all applied in the correct way.

I have quite a number of photographs of Canadian Nortons around 1942/43 showing the census number on the front mudguard. I suspect that it may have been because they were so keen on putting the maple leaf on the fuel tanks.

 photo B 1942 C4600095 C.11082 2 ATR RCA_zpspclxiodt.jpg

However, Canada didn't officially take any BSAs but photos exist showing that they sometimes acquired them.

If it were mine, I might take a look at the war diary for the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders of Canada to see if they refer to BSAs.

Re: Front mudguard marking ID please

I expect the canadians might have wanted something with more than a pretension to cross country ability. Otherwise they could have bought Harleys.

Re: Front mudguard marking ID please

The Canadians had hundreds, probably thousands of Harley's (Model WLC) They were prepared to a different spec to the US WLA's. different mudguards and interchangeable wheels, British style rear lamps, and a handlebar clutch lever....To mention just some of the differences. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: Front mudguard marking ID please

Here's one but unfortunately the rider seems to have lost his uniform Seems like a nice boy though

 photo 05-naptar-Motoros copy_zpsicuozi5b.jpg

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: Front mudguard marking ID please

Michiel W


WM20.63546

 photo SAM_6601_zpsewb0sr0b.jpg


Hi Michiel

Does the rear frame have the brazed on prop stand lug or have you used a bolt on clamp type in the lower position, I can't quite see from this angle?

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Re: Front mudguard marking ID please

Must be Dutch, look at the registration plate...

Re: Front mudguard marking ID please

Yes Hans. My mate Tim bought the bike from Michel Clements and the pictures are from a Dutch calendar. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: Front mudguard marking ID please

I'd swop my pillar drill for one of those Ron "defo"

email (option): petethejeep@hotmail.co.uk

Re: Front mudguard marking ID please

Thanks for the laugh, Ron, lost its uniform

Hi Rob, I used the brazed lug on the frame for the fieldstand.

The rearmudguard is a plain one and drilled for the pannier rack, I might put those racks on in the future but that would mean a change to the long stand.

Re: Front mudguard marking ID please

Brings a whole new meaning to cross country

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